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                        88mm Armed Jagdtigers in Combat, Fact or Fiction?

                        4777 views
                        29 replies
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        88mm Armed Jagdtigers in Combat, Fact or Fiction?
                        Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 14, 2004 8:19 PM
                        There is a certain mystique which surrounds German armor of WW II. Whether it is their gargantuan size, exotic paint schemes, prowness on the battlefield or the complexity of their designs, these machines have fascinated modelers for decades. Much of the lore associated with these machines has become distorted with the passage of time, so much so that it is often difficult to separate fact from fiction. Such is the case of the legendary 88mm Armed Jagdtigers. Did they ever actually exist? If so, were they ever used in combat? A great deal of speculation swirls around this topic. To this date, no photographic proof is known to prove the existence of these vehicles. So did they ever exist?
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                        wbill76
                        • Member since
                          July 2004
                        • From: Texas
                        Posted by wbill76 on Saturday, August 14, 2004 9:27 PM
                        Oooo peridexion has laid out the powder keg for sure! Who wants to light the fuse? Big Smile [:D]

                        BP Models

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                        tigerman
                        • Member since
                          March 2003
                        • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
                        Posted by tigerman on Saturday, August 14, 2004 9:40 PM
                        Well unless someone proves it's wrong, I'd say no it didn't happen.

                        http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

                         Eric 

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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 14, 2004 9:44 PM
                        I thought the idea or the Jagd was to get a platform for that monster cannon, what would be the point of using an 88? Saving on turret mechanisms?
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 14, 2004 9:50 PM
                        Holy Haft-Hohlladung Batman, this could be a paradox!
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                        Foster7155
                        • Member since
                          July 2003
                        • From: Pensacola, FL
                        Posted by Foster7155 on Saturday, August 14, 2004 9:56 PM
                        [deleted]

                        Robert Foster

                        Pensacola Modeleers

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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 14, 2004 11:01 PM
                        Ahhh funny ???. Well there is a pic of one that a friend has I will tryto see if I can get it.
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 12:09 AM
                        Just to emphasize how wrong the internet can be, this guy's site claims that all Jagdtigers were armed with 88's;

                        http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/heer/antitank/jagdtiger/jagdtiger.html

                        All "48" of them....Dunce [D)] (He is only missing 40 of them)
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 12:27 AM
                        Nah, I think that guy just wanted to give a brief history lesson on "the beast" without spending alot of time (or energy) on it. You can still give him a ring if you'ld like Peridexion Wink [;)]Big Smile [:D]
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 12:31 AM
                        I don't know what he is saying? To quote him; "The superstructure was designed to mount the very formidable 128mm PaK 44 anti-tank gun; this combined with its very thick armor made the Jagdtiger the most powerful armored fighting vehicle of the war. However, shortage of the gun due to Allied bombing meant the Jagdtiger had to settle with the 88mm PaK 43 instead."
                        Sounds like he thinks they were armed with 88's to me.
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                        roowalker
                        • Member since
                          April 2004
                        • From: S.C. Beach
                        Posted by roowalker on Sunday, August 15, 2004 7:54 AM
                        Here we go!!
                        "Jagdtiger,Operational History",by Devey,pp.276&277,
                        report from Nibelugenwerk,4 88mm Jagdtigers,delivery expected
                        by end of April,1945...no optics available,not test fired,
                        NO PHOTOS as of 1999 publication. Anyone seen anything
                        to contadict this or possibly a PHOTO ,possibly from Russian
                        postwar sources???
                        Very Curious
                        Roowalker
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                        Foster7155
                        • Member since
                          July 2003
                        • From: Pensacola, FL
                        Posted by Foster7155 on Sunday, August 15, 2004 10:38 AM
                        [deleted]

                        Robert Foster

                        Pensacola Modeleers

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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 11:50 AM
                        Roowalker; This is the same information I have, from the same book. If you read on a little further to 40.10, it states that 4-88mm Jagdtigers were confirmed as completed, chassis # 305078 through 305081, but they had no optics. On page 277, it states that 7 or 8 had been built, all 88mm, all without optics. On May 4th, the order was given to Lt. Hans Knippenberg of s.Pz.Jg.Abt653 to blow up these Jagdtigers to prevent their capture by American forces. Without their optics, they were completely useless. The report sent from Nibelungen Werk on April 29th is the only piece of documented evidence of the existence of these 4 confirmed, (7 or 8 total possible) vehicles. At least so says Mr. Devey, but since he spent 20 years researching these 2 books and he has the bibliography to back it up, I'm going to tend to believe this...until someone else proves him wrong.
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 12:33 PM
                        http://klub.chip.pl/krzemek/ferdinand.htm <-- Is this what you arelooking for? I can't read German but I think one of the pictures states that the SD.KFZ.185, has an 88 on it...

                        It was also intended to arm Jagdtiger with 88mm KwK 43 L/71 gun instead of 128mm Pak 44 L/55 gun.In April of 1945, four were armed with 88mm Pak 43 L/71 gun and were designated as Panzerjäger Tiger mit 88mm Pak 43/3 (Sf) Sd.Kfz.185, while those armed with 128mm Pak 44 L/55 were designated Sd.Kfz.186.

                        I gotta head out for a while, I will continue my search when I get back...
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 12:36 PM
                        Sorry the above site is Polish not German... and if you look at that top picture closely it looks like an 88 on that Panzerjager Tiger.....
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 12:37 PM
                        God My bad again... thats a 184, not a 185.... Sorry about that
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                        wbill76
                        • Member since
                          July 2004
                        • From: Texas
                        Posted by wbill76 on Sunday, August 15, 2004 1:10 PM
                        Rusty,

                        Those are Panzerjaeger Ferdinand/Elefants, not the Jagdtiger that Peridexion is talking about. The Ferdinand/Elefants were built on Tiger chassis but the Jadgtiger is a totally different beast.

                        BP Models

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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 1:27 PM
                        Yeh, I seen that after I posted... Banged Head [banghead]
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                        spector822002
                        • Member since
                          December 2003
                        • From: Southern Maine
                        Posted by spector822002 on Sunday, August 15, 2004 6:47 PM
                        I have seen comparisons of the russian 122mm gun as used on the js2 and the good ole 88 and the armour piercing capabilties were very similar , the 122 had the upper hand in HE dept however as should be expected , the 88 was one powerful gun for sure , I do believe the JT had a 128 as posted in almost all literature , why would they bother to put an 88 in that massive superstructure , thats why it was concieved , to house the PAK 44 cannon , just like the jagdpanther was built for the 88 , you can't cram 50 lbs of S@#$ in a 5lb bag as the old saying goes , so they delete the turret and put a huge cannon in its place , the tiger 2 already had an 88 so why put an 88 in its jagd sister?
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                        Foster7155
                        • Member since
                          July 2003
                        • From: Pensacola, FL
                        Posted by Foster7155 on Sunday, August 15, 2004 7:23 PM
                        [deleted]

                        Robert Foster

                        Pensacola Modeleers

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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 7:52 PM
                        I personally do not think that the 4 made it to battle... What would be interesting to find out is where the 4 were built.... What part of the "in-country" and then we could find out if the factories around that area were bombed, or if they were just sabotaged/scrapped by their own builders... Its something very interesting to find out.. Question [?]
                        Report Abuse
                        spector822002
                        • Member since
                          December 2003
                        • From: Southern Maine
                        Posted by spector822002 on Sunday, August 15, 2004 8:45 PM
                        interesting arguement , but to say that those pictures of the jagdtiger be it porsche or henchell had an 88mm cannon as the guy on the site has stated is just absurd , its obvious that is way bigger than 88mm to me , if there is a pic of a JT with an 88 please post it , perdexion will agree with me here in that dept ! It is also well known that some JT were to have an 88 due to gun shortage , but were they actually constructed or just ordered , I say post a pic if they were actually made ! if not they were an E100Big Smile [:D]
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 9:26 PM
                        Ah....did you guys read what I posted? Confused [%-)] "To this date, no photographic proof is known to prove the existence of these vehicles." The 88mm Jagdtigers, the 4 comfirmed (confirmed by production records from Nibelungen Werk dated April 29th) and the additional 3 or 4 testified by members of s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 653, did not have any gunsights and never got any....They blew the vehicles up to prevent their capture at the factory. They never made it to combat. And actually, it was not a shortage of 128mm guns that brought about the gun swap, it was lack of gun mounts.
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                        Foster7155
                        • Member since
                          July 2003
                        • From: Pensacola, FL
                        Posted by Foster7155 on Sunday, August 15, 2004 9:35 PM
                        [deleted]

                        Robert Foster

                        Pensacola Modeleers

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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 15, 2004 9:46 PM
                        My bad, I should have clarified, "On May 2nd, a detachment from s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 653 was in Nibelungen Werk waiting for orders to take on these Jagdtigers. The orders never came. On May 4th, with the Americans already near Linz, the order was given to blow up these new Jagdtigers (the 88 versions) to prevent capture. Lt Hans Knippenberg's men, who had become quite experienced at blowing up Jagdtigers, carried out this order. Knippenberg states that seven or eight Jagdtigers were blown up". -Taken from; Jagdtiger, The Most Powerful Armoured Fighting Vehicle Of World War II, volume II, page 277.
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                        roowalker
                        • Member since
                          April 2004
                        • From: S.C. Beach
                        Posted by roowalker on Monday, August 16, 2004 5:21 PM
                        Peridexion, you were right!! Stirred up a hornets nest !! Guess we'll
                        wait for that eldritch,musty,unthinkable roll of negatives to emerge
                        from some sealed, forgotten,tomb.....
                        Thanks for the fun,
                        Roowalker
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 16, 2004 9:52 PM
                        Roowalker; Well, I'm glad to see I haven't infuriated everybody here. Actually though, I thought this one was rather phlegmatic. So much of this stuff is simply beyond verification. It never ceases to amaze me how much disparity between books there can be on even a relatively insignificant topic and without particular references in rather obscure books, we are relegated to speculation. Even with decent references, what has been taken as established fact, can be overturned as new evidence is discovered.
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                        spector822002
                        • Member since
                          December 2003
                        • From: Southern Maine
                        Posted by spector822002 on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 3:09 PM
                        Perdexion: you seem to have a pretty darn good reference library at your disposal , I wish I was that fortunate , don't have too much here to be honest , but what I do have is pretty good stuff . Isn't it funny how history can be different by different authors Almost makes one wonder if it is all propaganda sometimes . I am not happy with my jagdtiger model at this time , the other night I was looking at the tracks of my beloved JT and said to myself , those tracks need to look a shade darker , so I hit it with some of my magic weathering solution , and them darn modelkatsen tracks crumbled before my very eyes ! Thats it for me and modelkasten , I have never had problems like this with any other model product ! Thats a bit off topic , and yet on at the same time ! Happy modeling !Big Smile [:D]
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 3:50 PM
                        Spector, Although I started modeling and collecting military reference books some 37 years ago, it only been within the last 15 years that my library has expanded to the size it is now, due mainly to the intervention of my wife. While she could give a rat's patootie about my hobby and my continuing need for new reference materials, she quietly supports my endeavors by her work in the publishing market. People who work in the publishing field receive some interesting job perks, among which is the ability to obtain virtually any book for free. I am fortunate to be able to share in this perk, for without it, my library would be a fraction of the size it is today. There is no way I'd go out and blow up to $120 on a single book!
                        Sorry to here about your JT's tracks. Was this weathering solution a solvent based product? While I haven't experienced this sort of problem before, I have had other solvent based nightmares occur, which has lead me away from using anything but acrylics anymore. I hope you can fix this without ending up losing the entire model. Disapprove [V]
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                        spector822002
                        • Member since
                          December 2003
                        • From: Southern Maine
                        Posted by spector822002 on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 4:47 PM
                        Perdexion: You nailed my solution right on the head ,(solvent base humbrol ) I am telling you these tracks literally crumbled into very small sections , it must have melted the plastic pins somewhat , now my workable trax are solid glued together , oh well live and learn as in other modeling experiments ! Hey TY again for that pic of the JT ammo , it will come in handy for my ammo loading dio , soon to come !
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