Base colors

This is really a loaded topic....It is really difficult to know who to believe when it comes to German paint schemes. Jentz and Doyle state on the Missing lynx "Panzer Facts" page that there was only one Dunkelgelb. Yet I can show you someone else's color chart that shows at least 4! All with fancy names and everything! So who is right? Jentz and Doyle say there is no RAL number for Dunkelgelb, yet others don't seem to have any problem finding one, (or is it "assigning" one to it?) And no one can seem to agree just exactly what "Panzer Yellow" is supposed to look like. "Well, I like so and so's paint." "Oh ya, well I think it is too green!....too dark..too light........I have seen it stated in many different books that there were no late war German tanks painted in Panzer Gray, yet I have wartime color photos of such. Look at the Panzer IV on the right of this photo, taken at Aberdeen shortly after the war;


The Panzer IV is at least a Ausf G, possibly later, since the side vision port has been deleted. It has Zimmerit and schurtzen, yet it is most certainly painted dark gray. No proof of late war Panzer Gray? Let alone poor old Jagdtiger 331 sitting here. This is his original paint, yet I can show you numerous photos of this beast in several different books, all stating different colors, or worse yet, mistaking the Aberdeen repaints for the original paint scheme!
Then there is the famous Gray Mobelwagen photo...And a gray Mobelwagen sitting in Saumur. Is it the same lone vehicle as the famous photo? Or were there several of these? Is the Saumur Mobelwagen a repaint? If so, why is it so faded?



It looks like a repaint to me, but why all the red oxide primer scratches on the bow plate, like the paint was scraped off by the spare tracks? Why would they arbitrarily repaint gray if there was not so painted in the first place?

Who do you believe? What do you believe? Why do we believe what we do?

Thanks for bringing this to light and also muddying the waters somewhat.

Always fascinating to see the normally meticulous Germans have so much confusion/leeway in this area. I consider it a tremendous blessing in disguise though as it lends a lot of artistic license to the individual modeler when it comes down to the final look. Can't beat that!

I deleted the previous photo I posted because I have determined that several things were wrong, along with the rest of the confusion I spun out of it. Sorry for the mix-up. The statement from Bruce Culver on page 46 of Panzer Colors, Vol I, that the gray in the Tropen scheme is "RAL 7027", but also that; "The dark gray was the standard gray still in use elsewhere as the base color", (which to me implies Dunkelgrau), really threw me for a loop. Culver goes on to say that; "Photographs show that it (the "Dark Gray, RAL 7027"), stood out very well agaist the brown base coat." Well, if you look at the Model Master RAL 7027, it is not a "dark gray" and it only somewhat contrasts with the Afrika Braun 1942 RAL 8020. Please look at this Model Master color chart; http://www.venturahobbies.com/paint-mm2.html
The MM RAL 7027 is not a "dark gray" as Culver has stated, more a yellow brown. So....there are 2 Africa yellow-brown base coats, RAL 8000 and RAL 8020 and 2 oversprays, RAL 7008 and RAL 7027, in addition all the other variations of Dunkelgrau / mud, "pea green", captured US and British paint, and everything else the DAK used! This is all very confusing. and is making my head hurt

Very interesting and confusing at the same time indeed!

Very cool variation Peridexion! May have to look deeper into this one and see how difficult it might be to reproduce. You don't happen to have any color plates or photo references handy do you?

Pre 1938 German AFVs had about 1/3 of their surfaces painted in a "cloudy" pattern of dark brown. These don't show up in b/w photos well but it's well documented.

Ah, but there is another paint scheme that uses colors not found in most treadheads paint rack. Tigers issued to Grossdeutschland, 1st SS Pz-LAH, Das Reich and Totenkopf from December 1942 through February 1943 were painted at the Henschel factory in "Tropen" (tropical) scheme. This was a sprayed, two-tone scheme of 2/3rds Braun (RAL 8020, also called "Desert Brown", not Rotbraun RAL 8017) and 1/3rd "Grau"(Jentz and Doyle, page 190, Germany's Tiger Tanks. Model Master refers to this color as "Afrika Dunkelgrau" RAL 7027), (not Dunkelgrau RAL 7021). This scheme was developed for vehicles destined for North Africa and Southern Russian, hence other vehicles like Pz III N's (the normal 3rd company support tanks for Tiger Abteilungs) and other vehicles can also be found in this paint job. I thought that the Bovington tiger was currently wearing this scheme, but it appears to be the earlier "HM 1941, no. 281" scheme of base color yellow brown, RAL 8000 and gray-green RAL 7008, even though it should be the later scheme. See below.



Then again, one needs to pull out the paint chips at be standing next to the vehicle for any sort of color comparison. Printing ink variations, monitor settings, lighting, age, weathering or lack thereof, all contribute to what we are seeing here.

Thanks for the info and the welcome guys.I've been fiddlin' around with model tanks off and on for years.I'm just tired of the same old colors.Gotta try that red oxide stuff.Sounds cool.

Later

EasternTiger

Thanks for bailing me out Bill. I don't have my refs handy. I meant olivegrun, just that I spray dark green. I forgot to welcome you to the forums Eastern Tiger.

First off, welcome to the forums!

Eric is correct, for a brief period in late '44 and early '45, German tanks were basecoated in the Olivgrun with the Dunkelgelb and Rotbraun added over the top in the reverse of the usual Dunkelgelb basecoat.

It really all boils down to which theater and what timeframe you are wanting to represent. This site gives you a more detailed breakdown: http://byrden.com/panzers/Colours/index.html

Latter war vehicles used Red-oxide primer on such tanks as King Tigers, Jagdtigers, Panthers. Tamiya's Hull Red is a pretty close example. Also Dark Green was used on many of the heavies as well, though I can't recall the year, I'm thinking late 44.