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Hetzer and Marder III Question

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  • Member since
    August 2003
Hetzer and Marder III Question
Posted by Bwog on Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:45 PM
I've read that Hetzers had larger road wheels than the standard PZ 38t variants...is this also true of the Marder III? In other words do the Hetzer and Marder have the same size road wheels?

V/r, BW
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 28, 2004 3:08 PM
I'm really going to put my foot in my mouth if I don't start checking all the references I have at hand. Dunce [D)] According to Osprey's Modelling the Jagdpanzer 38(t) 'Hetzer", the Hetzer had larger diameter, 32 bolt road wheels than the standard 38(t) tank. Now, whether those were used on the Marders as well is going to take some more research...if I have any other books that deal with this subject. If the 32 bolt pattern was only used on the larger diameter wheels, then it should just be a simple matter of looking at the bolt pattern on a Marder to determine this.
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Thursday, October 28, 2004 3:36 PM
My instinct is to say that the Marder III had the same roadwheels as the 38(t). After checking the pics on the defunct AFVinteriors site, they do indeed have the same number of bolts and are the same size.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 28, 2004 4:02 PM
This is already getting screwy...I'm looking at PzKpfw 38(t) in Action, and clear back to an Ausf A, I'm seeing 32 bolt wheels, yet a quick glance at the back cover shows a illustration of a Hetzer with 16 bolt wheels. Now, we all know the difference between ARTWORK and photographs of the real thing, so maybe this is just an oversight by the artist. Can anyone find a photo of a Hetzer with 16 bolt wheels? For that matter, why are all the 38(t) photos, even early versions, seem to have 32 bolt wheels? Arggh.....theory and real life...Angry [:(!]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 28, 2004 4:43 PM
The Hetzer was a 'new' vehicle built from the basic hull design of the 38t. The first Marder 3's on the other hand were simply converted from existing 38t stocks by removing the turret and superstructure plates, and adding 7 armoured plates for the new superstructure parts, the Russian 76.2mm gun on a cruciform support and adding a gun shield.

The next development was a redesigned mounting platform and side shields on the same basic hull layout - Marder 3 Ausf G/H.

Subsequent Ausf M models were built as new vehicles with the engine mounted in the centre of the hull, fighting compartment relocated to the rear, and german Pak 40 fitted. Chassis remain unchanged.

Production of the Marder's was halted in May 1944 when production was converted to the more robust and effective Hetzer design.

Like all German vehicles, improvements were made during production of Hetzer's as the crew's provided feedback following combat use became known. Right from the start the Hetzer had the slightly larger road wheels to carry the extra weight of the full superstructure and gun, and they were specificly designed for that vehicle. They always had the 32 bolts. Late model Hetzers did not have bolts in the road wheels at all - they had rivets instead, but it is possible that some were rivetted every second place, so the 16 bolt myth may be a result of that, although I have no references that confirm this ever happened. On the final production series they went one further and were simply welded.

Amongst the many variations during production run, the "Early' vehicles had the basic 12 hole Idler wheel, late production had the 6 hole Idler and the experimental "Starr" had a 4 hole idler.

Hope this helps
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:35 PM
I forgot I had Osprey's #36, Jagdpanzer 38 'Hetzer' sitting on the shelf too. This helps answer the 16 vs 32 hole question. On page 14; August 1944, "Roadwheels were introduced with a larger diameter centre disk and a smaller rim. Prior to this, the smaller diameter roadwheel discs had been modified to create larger diameter roadwheels by bolting on a larger rim. At first the new rims were still drilled for 32 bolts, but frequently only 16 bolts were installed."
I was assuming when the other book said; "new, 32 bolt wheels" that the old style wheels had only half the number of bolts, like the Panthers, not that they were trying to save bolts! Black Eye [B)]
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