Shanghai Dragon 1/35 Night Fighting Panther

QUOTE: Originally posted by ABARNE Dwight, Here's a link to an article I tripped into a while back on FSM a while back. Although it's a conversion article, there might be some useful info in there. Andy http://www.finescale.com/fsm/objects/pdf/nightvisionpanther.pdf This is very informative. Thank you very much.

I used the IR sites for my E 100 I think they are great.. I also have the kit on the shelf as well. waiting in line with the other 150 +.

Dwight,

Here's a link to an article I tripped into a while back on FSM a while back. Although it's a conversion article, there might be some useful info in there.

Andy

http://www.finescale.com/fsm/objects/pdf/nightvisionpanther.pdf

Well that makes me feel a little bit better. Must be loosing my marbles? I've just got to get my fingers into a new project. I'll be OK Dwight thanks for calming my computer dense nerves. Nothing a good fix of plastic won't fix.LOL. Semper Fi, mike

QUOTE: Originally posted by yw18mc This is so darn maddening! I can't see any pictures you've posted. I'm sure it's got to be my browser settings, I'm just not sharp enough to figure out the problem? I usually go to your web page to view anything I can't pickup here so that is some consolation. Keep up the great work Dwight. Semper Fi, mike

Mike,

Calm down, there are no pictures. I just got the kit and have not built it yet.

I am just trying to get some ideas.

This is so darn maddening! I can't see any pictures you've posted. I'm sure it's got to be my browser settings, I'm just not sharp enough to figure out the problem? I usually go to your web page to view anything I can't pickup here so that is some consolation. Keep up the great work Dwight. Semper Fi, mike

Wow, thanks for the very detailed information everyone. This will come in handy.

Thanks again.

here is what I found ,.......Kamens post is in general correct - but some of the units never
recieved IR Panthers. Units that really saw combat with IR Panthers was a
Versuchs unit under command of a Haas ( ca 4-5 Panthers) . It was in
Hungary Dec-Jan 44-45. Otherwise during the Winter they cancelled the
operations with IR device becauce of the snow which made the IR "Blind"
Later the 1./29 (Rasim) saw combat at Seelow heights 4. /11 southeast
of Berlin and finally the 1/130 in area Berlin. Reports says (perhaps)
that a couple of vehicles of 1/BR (staff) saw action with the IR.
Small groups was tested as well but without Panthers. Some crews saw a
"lehrgang" but (ex Pz.Rgt 27) saw never action with the Panthers.
The 3./6 recieved its Panther and was transported to Hungary in March
45 but saw never action - as they were afraid it would fall in the
advancing russian hands. The crew had one problem and it was to identify foe
or friend throug the device - it was like looking on a old movie and
you could not see if it was a T-34 or a Panther. Thats why they "hold"
fire many times. On each IR Panther it was 2-3 Soldiers that was guarded
the Tank armed with IR MP 44. They were also guarded on the back by a
steel plate.
( I cant post pictures - but if you go to www. missing -links you will
see a Panther from 1./29 based on facts .Interwievs with Vets etc).
Well just a short reply...
Well concerning the units I/130...I/24...I/11 is correct they rushed to
Hungary in Dec.44 but without any IR equippment -one Comp of I/130
(1:st) stayed in Germany as a base for the later I/130 and continiud
training with IR.
The main reason they did not use the IR in Dec - Feb 44-45 was two
reasons...the equippment was not reliable enough and as i said they did not
used IR during the winter and snow. Just a short history - over and out
regards Mirko

Here is a little more info I found. This author at least has a bibiography, which is more than most on the net do.
In summer 1944 the Panthers of 3.Kompanie, 24th Panzerregiment, 116th Panzerdivision, were equipped with UHU on the battle/excercise-area BERGEN, and actually trained the use of the nightfighting concept SPERBER. Hitler planned the mission of this Kompanie to be during the Operation WACHT AM RHEIN (Battle of the Bulge) and actually some squads were tranfered to the western front, but never saw action there.
One SPERBER squad including their Panthers was transfered to STUHLWEISSENBURG (Hungary) in early 1945 with 6th SS-Panzerarmee, intended to support the german counterattack to secure the area of Budapest. The rest of the Kompanie followed, but without nightfighting equipment. In 1945 the Wehrmacht planned to form 5 SPERBER Kompanies, but this concept proved to be illusory. 2 SPERBER squads joined the spontanuous formed Panzerdivision "CLAUSEWITZ", which was formed in spring 1945 on the western front. On 21st of april, these 2 squads ran down an american ambush, which has been set up at the WESER-ELBE-KANAL, and by this ensured the only documented action of the nightfighting concept SPERBER.

In march 1945 the Panzerdivision "MÜNCHEBERG" received one fully equipped Kompanie of 10 SPERBER capable Panthers and one SPERBER capable Panzer Grenadier Kompanie. The Division took part in the last fights during the battle of BERLIN. If this Division used the SPERBER concept isn´t documented.

The armoured forces school at FALLINGBOSTEL developed an even more mature solution called "LÖSUNG B - solution B" to make use of the FG 1250 device. Since the system SPERBER had the critical drawback that only the tankcommander had nightvision and therefore had to direct the driver and the gunner, experiments were made with some Panther As and Ds which were equipped with an infrared-searchlight and image converter for the driver and a periscope for the gunner. This way 3 crewmembers obtained nightfighting ability. In April 1945 some of the solution B equiped Panthers were ordered to the Division "CLAUSEWITZ". In mid april these Panthers saw their only doctumented action near UELZEN, where they destroyed a full platoon equipped with the brandnew british Comet tanks.

Hello!
The Concord publication on the Panther , gives good documentation on German I.R. sights , describing " Solutions , A , and B ", and if I am not mistaken , it says a Jagdpanther unit , may have been equipped with I.R. Now , that would be interesting ! There is also a pic of Marder II , with an I.R. sight , I think just a test platform , for the sight.
Frank
"PERSEVERANCE"

Actually I read that only from this site saying that some IR sight equipped Panthers were at the Ardennes.

http://www.wargamer.com/Hosted/Panzer/pantherc.html

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dwight Ta-ala Thank you for the input, Peridexion. Actually I had the Tamiya Panther G with IR sight also but I built it to the steel wheel version and left off the IR sights. I will try to compare the IR sight between the two kits. Anyway I may do it with the Solution A only. Afterall a few Panther G's with Solution A IR sight have seen some action during the Ardennes campaign. Again thanks.

The way I understand it , (coming from experts on several well known sights ) IR sights were never used on the Western front . They were only used on eastern front conflicts .

QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerman Check my sig Dwight. LOL I liked it, but put on Tamiya's indies, because they were far less cleanup. Also added Tamiya grilles. Those two things cost more than the kit. I enjoyed the build, no real problems. I look forward to your Hornisse also.

Yeah that's true about the tracks but I think I'll stick with them. That would be the same clean-up time as that of the Panther D I did.. Also I will try to add some scratchbuilt grille screens on this one. (yeah that will work...LOL)

Give me about 2 weeks to finish the Hornisse and I'll do this one.

Check my sig Dwight. LOL I liked it, but put on Tamiya's indies, because they were far less cleanup. Also added Tamiya grilles. Those two things cost more than the kit. I enjoyed the build, no real problems. I look forward to your Hornisse also.

Edog/frank: Thanks for your info and suggestions.

Matt: I don't think Panther II's were fitted with IR sights. Sorry.

were any panther II's fitted with night vision?? I'd love to build one if i could.

Hello!
I like the kit . Builds into a nice model . The lower front hull , could do with more detail,where the final drives connect to the hull, ( check out the Tamiya Panther G).I built mine literally SOB , and all people note is the IR Sights , for the crew. Many people don't realize that the Germans had IR gear for tanks , or infantry weapons . I wish the IR gear was colored plastic , other than clear. Add some Dragon , German infantry with IR gear , on their MP 44's , and you will have a good diorama. Happy Modelling!
Frank
"PERSEVERANCE"

This is one of several kits that I have sitting on my workbench that is near completion. Although the fit was not quite as good as the Tamiya panther, IMHO the detail is superior. I actually prefer this kit to the Tamiya panthers.

Good luck with it.

Here is a little blurb on Panther IR;

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/ir.htm

Thank you for the input, Peridexion. Actually I had the Tamiya Panther G with IR sight also but I built it to the steel wheel version and left off the IR sights. I will try to compare the IR sight between the two kits.

Anyway I may do it with the Solution A only. Afterall a few Panther G's with Solution A IR sight have seen some action during the Ardennes campaign.

Again thanks.

I've got one sitting in the box in the garage.
You're right Dwight, the IR gear shown on the box art is the so-called "Solution B" and there is a good reason you haven't seen photos of this configuration. It wasn't used on Ausf G's. Solution B was a much more elaborate set-up than Solution A, (which only provided IR viewing for the commander). Solution B was used on rebuilt Ausf D's and early Ausf A's, as it was not possible to provide the gunner on later Ausf A's and G's with image converters without changes to the basic MBT's design. So, for a Ausf G, go with Solution A, one IR searchlight and one IR converter, for the commander only.