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Scale Color Theory

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:21 PM
My first contact with the term "Scale color" came many, many years back after I orderd the IPMS color guide(still got it collecting dust somewhere) and the FS Color chip fan.

If I recall correctly the book mentioned something like that if you match the color according to the FS chips it will be perceived as being too dark on the model and thus it should be "lightened" so that the painted model matches the FS color chip. They also gave ratios for different scales there.

That is for the people that can match color that accurately of course, even car painters now use specialised equipment to analyse the existing color and than mix a matching patch.

But than like I said haven't picked up the book in something like 10+yrs so my recollection might be a bit spotty.

Question to the IPMS Members:
Is the book still available?? Any updated versions done??
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:50 PM
Hi all! Here below is a link to two photos, over a ARC. They will show you exacly what I have been trying to say, that the COLOUR of the light, affects the PRECEVED colour of the object.

1) http://s96920072.onlinehome.us/AWA1/301-400/walk338_MH-60L/images_Evertt_McEwan/45_tail_2.jpg

2) http://s96920072.onlinehome.us/AWA1/301-400/walk338_MH-60L/images_Evertt_McEwan/46_tail_3.jpg

As you can see, what colour is the Blackhawk? Is it Flat Black? Is it Flat Black that has fadded, or is it Flat Black with white mixed in? What you are seeing, especially on the close-up picture of the tail, is the effect that I have been trying to explain. The sky in the picture, (we can see it in the background of the close-up... ) is about +18,000 degrees Kelvin, and this colour shift has affected the colour of the subject. If I was to stand say, far enough away, to see the whole Blackhawk complete without moving my eyes from side to side, (this is about 50mm on a camera) the top sides of the Blackhawk are now reading +-18,000 degrees K, while the sides and undersides of the Blackhawk are much less.

So, would I be CORRECT in painting the Academy Blackhawk flat black, or flat black (that is weathered to show fading) or flat black that has been mixed with white to give the grey shade you see on the close-up picture #46?

These two pictures show that if you didn't understand the effects you are seeing, you could potentially paint your model any number of shades between flat black, and black-grey, and essentially you would be correct (technically) if you used this picture as a guide.

The only way I can see around this, is to use the FS number, and once painted, then the application of weathering effects to bring out detail, would be the only correct finish.

Rob Savage!
  • Member since
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  • From: Nowhere. (Long Island)
Posted by Tankmaster7 on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 2:11 PM
I don't think it is necessary at all. First of all, paint schemes probably weren't exactly the same to start with. Secondly, weathering changes the color a lot anyway. Third, this is minor, but you're not goint o be viewing your model froma constant distance all the time, so that would throw it off a bit, I thinmk.
-Tanky Welcome to the United States of America, a subsidiary of Exxon Mobil Corporation, in partnership with Halliburton. Security for your constitutional rights provided by Blackwater International.
  • Member since
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  • From: Tacoma WA
Posted by gjek on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 2:08 PM
$.02 There I'm in. Maybe the primary reason for scale effect ( excluding Rons excelent point on light color shift throught the day) is the amount of humidity in the air. On a hot hazy summer day it is very easy to see scale effect. Everything at a distance is lighter in color. If you have any mountians in the distance they may almost vanish into the sky background. When a nice cold high pressure area moves in, the humidity is much lower and things are very crisp and clear. The mountians are easy to see and colors are much brighter. Not much scale effect. I believe this scale effect started being used starting with the renausance painters.

As far as the point of it's what the model builder wants to do , thats true. you can build out of box and paint straight out of the bottle. Of course if you do then this whole point of scale effect was never an issue to start with. Scale effect, preshading, washes, or even painting at all are of details we choose to do to achieve a level of detail we are comfortable with. The more I build the more of a perfectionist I become. Time is not a big concideration. If it takes 6 months to build a kit, oh well. It is the journey if you know what I mean. Money also is not a big concideration because one kit, PE, Aluminum barrel, metal track, paint and any resin parts spread over 6 months is not to expensive. What I have noticed is the more levels of detail that are applied to the kit the longer people view the kit when it's done. Every now an then you see a kit that was super detailed and finished perfectly and you just stop and gawk, wow! For those of use who are more detail minded discussions on the finer points are important. For those who are growing in skill and desire these discussions are invalueable.
Msgt USMC Ret M48, M60A1, M1A1
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted by zokissima on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 8:45 AM
I don't usually take scale effect into account.
I've read and witnessed many discussions regarding colouration and correctness, and not a one had any technican information regarding the photographing process, as explained by Mr. Rob Savage.
From the above explanation, it is easy to see that there are a large number of variables that can affect the outcome of a photograph, leaving it's credibility questionable at best.
If you really are such a modeler as to pick nits, and count rivets, then focus on that, superdetail the model with as much physical detail as possible. After that, let it be, as the correct colour is something that's unlikely to happen anyways.
So yeah, that's just my humble opinion.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 22, 2004 2:42 PM
Hi Again! I agree with the last statements from Foster7155, about the contest card. But I have seen this happen, with the results as I described them. That is why I refuse to enter any type of modeling contest, as what I think is correct, someone else may think differently. In the end, if it pleases you, the modeler, then that makes it fine. Modeling is about fun, not about being PC!

Rob Savage!
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Sunday, November 21, 2004 4:22 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Rob Savage
But I have attended modeling contests (none lately though ...) and I have seen "winners" that IMHO should not have won anything, as they looked incorrect, but because of the FALSE STATEMENTS made in a few publications as to the correct shade of Dark Yellow (as an example) used, they had won over other's work.


This (IMHO) is the nexus of the problem. The specific shade of a color...as long as it's the appropriate color...should have absolutely NOTHING to do with how a model is evaluated in a contest setting!

Heaven help us if it EVER becomes necessary for a modeler to get so specific about what they are representing that their entry card reads like this:

"This model represents a PzKpfw IV Ausf H from the 4th Panzer Division on 17 June 1944. As depicted, the vehicle was painted with the standard Dunkelgelb basecoat on 12 February 1944 during depot maintenance before being returned to the Division. After arrival with it's unit, field maintenance crews decided to add a camoflauge paint scheme using pigments of Olivegrun and Schokoladen Braun. However, due to their location and the speed required for completion, they were forced to use some contaminated diesel fuel to dissolve the pigments which affected their hue. Additioanlly, these pigments had been on hand since the Fall of 1943 and had frozen during the winter months. This caused a severe degradation of the pigments that affected their appearance. Ultimately, the camoflauge pattern was applied on 23 March 1944. Unusually hot weather during April and May 1944 further deteriorated the paint scheme to that which is represented."

I hope I never see the day that this is necessary!

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 21, 2004 3:24 PM
HI All! I agree with Foster7155's argument, that a subject farther away will appear ligher or different in colour. But to just know this, without the reasons why, in my opinion, leads to false assumtions. This is why certain authors, who have published books that we read and use to model armour, are incorrect, in the descriptions of the preceved colour of tanks, etc, that then are used as a reference in modeling contests, for one.

As an example of an argument, I have printed out a post from ARC, in my workup book on BlackHawk Helicopters, and it goes on and on as to the "correct" colour of the SOAR birds. Is it Flat Black, or Fadded Black or black paint that has "fadded" etc. On and on, over pages of posts, it goes. What is Correct?? You tell me.

On my workbench is the Academy DAP Blackhawk, and I still don't have the correct answer. Only a proper FS number would help, as then I could at least go to the LHS and purchse the paint, and go from there. This is one reason that this build has stalled, as I have not attempted to start the model, as you have to paint parts of it before you start the build.

See, you have to know the reason(s) why things work as they do, as then you can apply the correct theory to get the best results.

Yes the brain "see's" things differently than sometimes what is really there (or accurate) and I can agree with the statements that Foster7155 makes. But I have attended modeling contests (none lately though ...) and I have seen "winners" that IMHO should not have won anything, as they looked incorrect, but because of the FALSE STATEMENTS made in a few publications as to the correct shade of Dark Yellow (as an example) used, they had won over other's work. This can cause rankor or discord and this is NOT WHAT the hobby is about.

Thanks for the kind comments regarding this post, and I will provide the readers with a list of books you can read up on to understand proper colour theory as soon as I can.

Rob Savage!
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 20, 2004 9:24 PM
I told you this thread would be funBig Smile [:D]
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Sunny Florida
Posted by renarts on Saturday, November 20, 2004 8:54 PM
I think that the scale color theory is simply a guide, not a criteria for technical replication of paint finish. Nowhere has anyone made a successful argument for the scale ratio of color used on a model and come up with a criteria for judging. Maybe when someone can come up with an acurate reference and judges come equipped with a masters in color theory, a phd in chemical analysis and mobile spectrometers to test color density, tone, shade and value, a consistent means of viewing the piece in question and a well documented and proven standard then I will be concerned. Till then it is a neat space filler and decoration on model master paint display racks and a lively topic of discussion.

Nice dissertation Rob. Well done and very informative. Thanks.
Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Saturday, November 20, 2004 6:04 PM
All of the photography points are well presented and very informative. However, IMHO it relies exclusively on comparing photographic evidence instead of physical evidence. The camera lens and the human eye are vastly different mechanisms.

Photographic evidence of a single subject fails to account for simultaneous human observation. Specifically the "actual" perceived color difference between two identically painted vehicles at two different distances. Regardless of the color shift due to weather, time of day, or other conditions (because both vehicles are affected in the same way), a person's eye will always perceive that the vehicle farther away is painted in a slightly lighter color.

My .02...

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 20, 2004 3:33 PM
All right now students, pencils down. We are having a pop quiz on the above lesson. Question number one: .....Tongue [:P]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 20, 2004 1:24 PM
Hi All! I have thought about doing just that, namely writing a article on colour theory. But as you can see, it is very technical and FSM is for fun, not school work. At the moment, I have no cameras at all, but down the road, I intend to buy some more (I know where to buy them {Professional equipment} at wholesale prices ~ part of being a former shooter!). It is important as NO ONE has ever mentioned the reason's behind the color shifts (wbill76 knows now for one! ~ keep experimenting with that camera wbill76!~ try some CC filters for the effects!) that happen.

I take with a grain of salt the descriptions of this German tank was this colour yellow, and that German tank was that colour yellow as I explained above, you can alter the contrast of the subject by the development/fixing etc.

In the end, it is the eye of the modeler, that counts. That is the most important item here. Modeling is fun, relaxing, educational, experimental, a teaching tool, and so on. I am not going to bore the reader with a higly technical rant on film, etc, but I thought it was necessary to mention it above. That is why I asked the FSM staff to think about it, and make a SHORT one or two page article on the subject, to educate the casual modeler as to the differences in colour

In the rant above, you the reader had the benefit of my College education, in Photography, that cost me $300,000 dollars for the 4 1/2 years during the late 1970's!

Just think of all of the kits that would have purchased!

Rob Savage!

P.S. I can recomend some books on the subject, but at the moment I am not at home. I will create a SHORT list for those who are interested in this subject, and I will post it soon (in about a week or so) but BE WARNED this is a technical subject! Note also here .... go to your local photo shop (not a chain store but someone who sells pro cameras) and ask them to show you the Minolta Colour Meter (I believe it is numbered 5 by now) and bring a matress for you to fall on. This meter costs about $2000 dollars or so. I would not be without one, and it was my main meter, as I could almost set the proper exposure (in F-stops) just looking at the Degrees Kelvin it said. With this meter, you can see the Colour Temprature of the light, and if you purchase this meter (along with hiding it from the Wife!) you now will have an appreciation of the colour of the light you see under. So the next time you go to Photo that tank or Helicopter, whatever, you can see the colour of the light, along with the exposure too.

RJS!
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Saturday, November 20, 2004 11:09 AM
Now that is an interesting expedition into the world of photography and it's impact on the realm of "true" color. I've always wondered about the lighting differences ( I just assumed they were spectrum related) as my digital camera behaves very strangely for example if you set it to use incandescent light and forget to change the setting and take outdoor shots (they come out VERY blue).

Have to agree 100% with your last conclusion, ultimately the finish should be what you the builder want as opposed to chasing a phantom "perfect match". Wink [;)]
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 20, 2004 10:20 AM
Ok, Rob is barred from posting for two weeks. Just kidding...

Rob, do you have any Cliff Notes for your post?
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, November 19, 2004 6:16 PM
Rob, write it up and sell it to FSM. Tongue [:P] They could use some technical information in the rag. It also saves them the time having to do the research. Like you said, no one else has even mentioned this. It takes all the fun out of arguing about paint colors, but you are right. Big Smile [:D]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, November 19, 2004 5:54 PM
My head almost exploded while reading Rob's post.....Too much information for my simple brain to process :-P
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, November 19, 2004 3:14 PM
Hi All, here is my two cents worth on this issue. I am a trained artist, and a professional photographer (retired) and everyone is forgetting these factors;

1) Colour temperature of the light in question. On a clear day, at noon, the colour temperature of the sky is about 20,000 degrees kelvin (20K) and to see this you need a color temp meter. If you were to photograph a vehicle, the sky imparts a colour (blue spectrum) to the colours of the vehicle. That is why, to the human eye, on these days, the colour of the vehicle appears slighly bluish. At sunset or sunrise the colour tempature drops and there is a pronounced shift to yellow through to red (+- 3500 to 4500 K). This explains the arguing over what is the shade of green that was used by the US during WWII on Sherman tanks.

2) The colour speed of the film you are using to photograph the vehicle. This is important (IE, ASA of Kodachorme slide film is 64) as some films impart a bluish tone (daylight) and some impart a redish-yellowish tone (ektachrome film ~ asa 100+) and this affects (effects) the outcome of the slide or neg.

3) The colour temp of the light you are working with, at home. ALL LIGHT BULBS have a colour temp reading of about 1800K to about 2000K (redish tone) and you need to correct this. Example: have you noticed that the colour of the german grey, is affected by the TYPE OF LIGHT it is seen under? It seems dark in your place you model (living room, etc) but UNDER DAYLIGHT, it now has a lighter, flatter shade. Same thing with other paints.

The manufacturers of the paints know this, and they correct the shades accordingly. But, it fails because of the factors above, and that is why there is endless discussion on what is the correct shade of green, black, tan, etc.

As a side note, I do not rely on any discussion in the various books that show pictures of (for example) WWII German tanks taken during the war, for these reasons;

1) The SPEED OF THE FILM. As I said above, film has a manufactured speed rating, that is used to set the light meters, that results in the proper exposure on the neg. During the war, the Germans used Agfa film that was rated about ASA 32 to 100 speed. No one, I mean NO ONE has taken in account the fact that during the war, in the later stages, developer may have been in short supply. What does this mean?

If you use developer that was exhausted (used too much) it now takes longer to develop the film, and if you don't take this into account, you UNDER DEVELOP the film, with the resulting pictures being flat with little detail in the shadows. If you OVER DEVELOP the film, you now have a contrasty, harsh neg, that you then have to UNDER DEVELOP the pictures.

Also if you over fix the film, you now have imparted a chemical shade to the negatives, that EFFECTS the resulting neg. And in all of this, AGAIN, NO ONE has thought of the fact that the SPEED of the paper that the picture is printed on, ALSO AFFECTS the resulting picture.

2) The exposure of the negative. I have used and owned Leicas, Nikons, Bolex 16mm Professional Motion Picture cameras and other makes too. It depends on the end use of the neg(I call all film neg's, even those that are slide film) that dictates the exposure i'd use.

My primary work was newspaper photography (Spot News) and I specialized in what is called "Push Processing". You need an understanding of Physics, and Logrithms to do this. Today, with digital cameras this is electronically done, but I prefer the old fashioned film cameras (better quality here!!) What I mean by push processing is the movement of the latent exposure, from one area of the log of the film, to another area, that results in a useable neg, that shows detail in both the highlights and the dark areas, without blocking up or reticulation occuring.

What I would do is to over expose the neg, and then slighly over process the neg, then UNDER EXPOSE (normal exposure on the charts) the processing of the picture as a print. This would result in a contrasty yet tonnality useable picture that would be acceptable on a printed newspaper, taking in to account the quality of the paper used by the newspaper (newsprint) as a product.

What I have seen from German sources from WWII, as the war progressed, the shortage of the paper the pictures were printed on, became accute, and they were forced to use the smaller (flatter tonnaly) or the larger (contrasty tonnaly) print paper that was most likely pre-war.

What is the paper and the negatives made from? A mix of chemicals that react to light (exposure) and the developer (it removes areas that are NOT EXPOSED). Silver Halide is the main chemical and you can see that in the late war pictures, the amount(s) of Silver Halide available started to decrease, as the pictures are flat, with NO detail in ether the highlights or the shadows.

This is a NEGLECTED AREA of modeling, as NO ONE UNTIL NOW has mentioned the affect and effect of light, colour tempature, type of film, and type of camera in the pictures we all use to model after. To be CORRECT, go and get a "McBeth Colour Checker" board and take a series of photographs of that tank, etc, and start with the correct exposure (assuming your ligh meter in the camera is correct ~ more on this below ...) and shoot a series of exposures from -2 stops to +2 stops, to see what I mean here.

About relying on your exposure meter in the camera, a word of WARNING HERE! Do NOT assume that your exposure meter in your camera is correct out of the box. I used to have my cameras checked on a routine basis, by NIKON CANADA ( I used Nikon F2AS, and F3, and F4's) and I also used routinely HASSELBLAD ELX's with 12, and 70 exposure backs and I had to have them CALIBRATED yearly, as they would go out, and read under by -+ 1 stop. Some cameras where better than others, and those cameras that were out by more than one stop, I would sell, to some un-suspecting Joe, as I could not rely on them. You cannot rely on the exposure meters without checking them, so it is worth spending $50 dollars ( a routine overhall of my Nikons would cost about $500 dollars, for each camera ~ well worth the money!) to about $100 dollars to make sure that your meter is working properly.

In the end, what is PLEASING to the person who make the model tank, aircraft, figure, etc, is what counts!

P.S. A word to the FSM Staff .... How about a short lesson in the Magazine, showing this above, how colour affects (effects!) the paint we modelers use on our subjects?? You could go and shoot a tank or something like that, and do the 2 stops over/under routine, to show the readers that are not trained in photography, what this looks like, and HOW IT AFFECTS the colour temp of paints (on the subject vehicle), etc. How about it FSM?

Rob Savage
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Southern California, USA
Posted by ABARNE on Friday, November 19, 2004 2:29 PM
Although the theory of it might be valid, it seems as though it would be valid for only a single viewing distance from you model. My models look to me to have much the same shade whether I'm looking at from a within a foot away or across the room. In scale terms that would be anywhere from about twenty feet to over 350 feet, a distance overwhich one would probably perceive the color lightening effect in real life.

I think an even bigger effect on color is the lighting. Depending on the ambient light in the room, night vs day, which lights are turned on, flurescent vs. incandescent, etc., my models may seem to be too light, too dark, or not the right shade. I seem to remember reading an article by someone who painted his models based on the lighting typically found at shows.

Another item of contention is the paint itself. I have two different bottles of MM Olive Drab, supposedly the same color, that were not even close to one another. So who knows whether or not your bottle of paint even is an exact match for the original color. You could of course compare to color photos, if any are available, but then that can start a whole new discussion on photographic color accuracy.

About the only time that I might seriously spend some time mixing paint, lightening or darkening, is in a camo scheme trying to get the colors to have the right contrast.
  • Member since
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  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Friday, November 19, 2004 1:00 PM
I've never bothered with this for the reasons most have already mentioned. So much happens to the paint job post-painting in the course of finishing an armor model that the initial effect is lost. It's interesting to read about and understand the physics and optics behind it, but I don't see the return for the effort in my experience.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: PA
Posted by JWest21 on Thursday, November 18, 2004 7:26 PM
I usually do not do this with one exception- dark gray. On German armor and aircraft (the F-15E comes to mind) the gray out of the bottle looks too dark. To me it hides the details and doesn't look quite right, so I add some white. With camo, on the other hand, I usually let the dust coat I spray lighten it
Jason "There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." -D. Barry
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:57 PM
Seems to me that this whole theory is a little silly. Even with a 'factory fresh' paint job, what does it really matter. I mean, people already recognize that even these factory paint jobs displayed a lot of variation, so does the specific shade really matter that much?

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:55 PM
I agree with guys that the general effect of weathering (and other effects) alters the color of the vehicle so much so that the need of getting the "scale color" would be minimal or in MY case is not really necessary.

But I guess it is ones decision if he really wants to achieve the exact "scale color".

  • Member since
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  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:46 PM
Personally, I do not use the effect and really don't think it's worth the effort.

Unless you are trying to recreate an absolutely accurate scale model of a known vehicle, or one that's factory fresh, I don't see any reason to quibble over a 2% or 5% lightness change. There are so many variables that affect how paint color will appear and change over time, I don't get overly excited about minor variations.

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:42 PM
Dude, that is pandoras box. This thread should be fun!!Big Smile [:D]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:42 PM
Yes, it does work and is valid.

IMO it does not take into account weathering, aging, lighting conditions, etc which all will affect on how the finished paint job is perceived.

I think it is good if you want to build a vehicle fresh from the factory.
  • Member since
    April 2004
Scale Color Theory
Posted by pmm736 on Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:35 PM
Picked up a Model Master brosure at my local hobby store recently for the color chart. Inside there was a section on what they called the scale color theory. The premise is that due to the planet's atmosphere, the further you get from an item, the lighter the color of that item appears. They explained how to tone down camouflage colors (including mixing percentages) to achieve this effect with armor models. I was wondering whether any of you guys do this and if it's worth the effort.
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