German "Lion"

Thanks for the extra info guys!

That's one impressive looking machine. And 90 tons!?! A beast.

QUOTE: The German designers of armor were so far ahead of their time

I disagree. It's been shown that most of the Panzers developed by Germany during the war period were inferior to many first-world countries at that time. The Panther was rushed into production,and the Tiger, well that's a whole other debate

QUOTE: why do you need somthing that is the size of a naval cannon---in a tank?

That' s because it is a naval cannon! This isn't a Main Battle Tank, it is a heavy Sturmpanzer, like a Brummbar and a Sturmtiger. The concept for this weapon started back in May of 1942, but this design dates from March of 1943, just after the fall of Stalingrad. During the fighting in Stalingrad, troops had stated the need for an effective close-support weapon capable of destroying large fortified buildings and bunkers with only a few rounds. Vehicles like the SIG33B were rushed into production, followed by the more refined Brummbar. Some folks at OKW must have thought these weren't large enough, hence vehicles like this one and the Sturmtiger were dreamed up. The problem is that by the time these weapons were finally built, the need for such enormous firepower had long since passed.

oh, i forgot, what kind of target requires that magnitude of weaponry? doesn't just a regular 88mm gun take out just about everything? why do you need somthing that is the size of a naval cannon---in a tank? landships theory from world war 1?

i had no idea these two were out there! Luckily this website is awesome, and i can read it--simple german that even i can understand without much problem
Thanks alot for the resource!

hey, do these tanks fit in with the german E series of tanks anywhere?

B. I. G.

...thats all i gotta say.

Here is a little more dirt on the "Bear";
In early May of 1942, a new design of Sturmpanzer, the Bär (Bear) was proposed. On March 4th of 1943, Krupp proposed development of new Sturmgeschütz armed with 305mm L/16 mortar and first drawings were ready in May. It was to be armed with a 305mm gun mounted in the superstructure, based on the modified chassis of the then new Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger (Tiger I) heavy tank utilized some Panther components with new suspension developed by Krupp. The new vehicle was to weight 120 tons.

This new Sturmpanzer was to be powered by a 12-cylinder Maybach HL 230 P 30 engine producing 700hp. This would have al-lowed the vehicle to travel at a maximum speed of approximately 20km/h [12 mph]. Bär was to be armed with a rigidly-mounted 305mm KwK L/16 gun installed in an armored superstructure in the back of the hull. The main gun could only be elevated from 0 to 70 degrees and had a range of 10,500 meters [11,400 yards]. Each 305mm round weighed 350kg [770 pounds] and carried a 50kg [110 pound] charge. The interior storage space allowed for only 10 rounds.

Bär was to be 8.2 meters [26.7 feet] long, 4.1 meters [13.65 feet] wide and 3.5 meters [11.4 feet] high. Armor was sloped and protection ranged from 80mm on the sides to 130mm at the front. Sturmpanzer Bär was to be operated by a crew of six - commander, gunner, two loaders, driver and radio-operator. The project never left the drawing board, but was a step in the development of the Sturmtiger.

Monsters this is something the Germans nevered learned the quonity not qulity wins the war.I was reading a book onthe Sherman and the Germans said it was the best medium tank they ever saw.It was the Sherman that put the ideals of what the Germans started out with a medium sized tank with speed and fire power to help the infintry.The Germans put out the best of armor in the world but it does not win wars when it is slow and heavy and can't keep up with the troops.Digger

The constant mechanical problems that accompany complex tank designs also plagued the Germans, while the Russians enjoyed the much simplet T-34

The soviet ideal of marrying larger guns with existing chassis was much more practical than the German approach. I definitly agree with 53ryders point, German designs were definitly good but often favoured quality over quantity which meant production was generally low. Even though German tanks were generally superior to allied tanks, there were never enough of them!

Excellent points

QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerman The Lion is pretty cool. The Bear totally impractible at that stage of the war.

I feel that starting with the Panther D, weighing in at 43 tons, that German tanks start to become too heavy in weight. Just watch the weight go up with the Tiger and then the Tiger II, 57 and 68 tons respectively! All that weight either strains the drive-train too much, making mechanical reliability very much an issue. All that weight limits the range these monster could go before needing refueling, where are the fuel trucks and crews when you need them? All that weight tends to limit speed, on roads or off. All that weight limits what roads you could travel on, what bridges you could cross. Is bigger better?

Glenn

p.s.- my most favorite WWII tank is the Panther, although the T-34 series is a very close 2nd!

Thanks Glenn! I like the look of the Lowe. Too bad Dragon doesn't do one. (Since the Maus and E-100 are out there, maybe someday...)

QUOTE: Originally posted by JWest21 53ryder- I assume that is different from the one referred to as just the Maus, right? I have a Maus pic in one of my books and it doesn't look like that at all

It is similar in that the turret is towards the back end of the hull, but after that the Lion hull is more stylized with rounded edges as opposed to the squared off corners of the Maus.

Glenn

53ryder- I assume that is different from the one referred to as just the Maus, right? I have a Maus pic in one of my books and it doesn't look like that at all

The German designers of armor were so far ahead of their time. Thank God these designs never saw the light of the battle field. Semper Fi, mike

The Lion is pretty cool. The Bear totally impractible at that stage of the war.

From the 'Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII' by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, page 13.

The 'Lowe' or 'Tiger-Maus' was a Krupp project to build a replacement for the Tiger II; this was to utilize Tiger II components, and have the engine at the front of the vehicle."

There is a picture of a wooden model. The turret is at the very rear end of the hull. Interesting to say the least!


Glenn

The gun is enormous. It says its a 125! You know how the Germsn loved big tanks (the Maus and E-100 come to mind)

it looks a bit big