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                        How would you rate.......

                        2777 views
                        39 replies
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                        12
                        Panther 44
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: The Buckeye State
                        How would you rate.......
                        Posted by Panther 44 on Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:03 PM
                        How would you rate modern battle tanks based on the three aspects of armor design?
                        1Mobility (maneuverability, speed, fuel efficiency)
                        2 Fire Power ( destructive force of gun, accuracy)
                        3 Armor ( survivability of crew as well as that of the vehichle to remain in action after being hit)
                        What would be you top three choices (on a scale of 1-10, 10 being best) and why?
                        Sorry if this or a similar post has been made. New to the site and would really like hear from all of you.
                        Regards,
                        Joe
                        Just remember, ignorance is no excuse for the law. - Moe
                        Report Abuse
                        styrene
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
                        Posted by styrene on Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:29 PM
                        Joe,
                        I'm going WAY OUT on a limb here, but I think the overall answer from most, if not all, of the armor guys is going to be the Abrams. However, if I may, my personal favorite is the Israeli Merkava. With the engine in front, instead of the rear, crew survivability is supposed to have been substantially increased, according to some of the literature I read during the build-up of my Academy Merk II. That has been increased with the hatch doors located at the rear of the hull. Accuracy and destructive power, I think, is about equal...the Merk also uses the Rheinmetall barrel.
                        OK guys, I now have a plastic sheet over my head. You may fling tomatoes when ready....except for Robert (shermanfreak). He's probably going to tell you that the Sherman is still the best thing going. Trouble is, he may be right.... :) :)
                        Gip Winecoff

                        1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

                        1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:37 PM
                        Looking at track records, it's hard to argue against a tank that has never lost a crew member to hostile fire, so my vote goes to the M1 Abrams (all makes, all models)

                        demono69
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:42 PM
                        i prefer the Challenger 2 Smile [:)]


                        dont like the Merkava


                        But this makes a good diorama


                        Abrams is a good tank


                        Report Abuse
                        tigerman
                        • Member since
                          March 2003
                        • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
                        Posted by tigerman on Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:08 PM
                        Sweet photos Caveman! I'd also vote for the M1, like gee, almost everyone else. I do like the Challenger though.

                        http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

                         Eric 

                        Report Abuse
                        okieboy
                        • Member since
                          July 2003
                        • From: USA
                        Posted by okieboy on Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:18 PM
                        Being a formerly active duty Marine, I'm going to have to say the M1 Abrams. Trust me.

                        Roy
                        "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm." George Orwell
                        Report Abuse
                        Rob Gronovius
                        • Member since
                          December 2002
                        • From: Fort Knox
                        Posted by Rob Gronovius on Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:43 PM
                        Having commanded Abrams tanks on three continents, I'd say it's the best. Fire power is comparable to most modern tanks, depleted uranium mesh coupled with Chobam armor make it virtually inpenetrable. The 1500 hp AGT turbine engine will move that 70 ton tank faster than most modern tanks. The thing will stop on a dime, and the A2 variant has a digitized system allows this tank to see other friendly tanks on the battlefield as well as be seen giving armor force commanders an unprecedented view of the battlefield layout.
                        Report Abuse
                        shermanfreak
                        • Member since
                          January 2003
                        Posted by shermanfreak on Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:07 PM
                        When all the factors are taken in ...... speed, firepower, armour protection ..........
                        I would have to say the M4A3 Sherman .....LOL

                        Even I would have trouble picking something other than the Abrams. She is a gem.
                        Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:20 PM
                        I have to say M1 all the way
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:23 PM
                        I would have to agree the M1 is amazing but the T-72 is no joke in it's self. Larger gun, (by 5MM) and a slightly loinger range travel wise..makes it a pretty good contender.
                        Report Abuse
                        djmodels1999
                        • Member since
                          December 2002
                        • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
                        Posted by djmodels1999 on Friday, August 1, 2003 2:32 AM
                        The Abrams certainly has a very decent record, however, and please do not hit me, I'd think that other MBTs such as the Merkava, the Leopard and the Challenger probably have similar, if not better ones, while newer MBTs such as the T-90 and the Leclerc would probably score very well, if not as well, in those 3 categories... The M1's turbine is still its achille's heels, no?
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 1, 2003 4:06 AM
                        1- Mobility (maneuverability, speed, fuel efficiency): Leopard 2
                        2 - Fire Power ( destructive force of gun, accuracy): C1 Ariete
                        3 - Armor ( survivability of crew as well as that of the vehichle to remain in action after being hit): M1 Abrams
                        Overall I'd say the Leopard 2 and the Abrams
                        Report Abuse
                        Dwight Ta-ala
                        • Member since
                          July 2003
                        • From: Philippines
                        Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Friday, August 1, 2003 5:59 AM
                        All of these new MBT's look good on paper and I believe that they actually are.

                        However, only the M1 (M1A1 & M1A2) has had a very remarkable combat record in the two major wars so far. So...I think it is no.1.

                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 1, 2003 7:46 AM
                        Leopard 2A5 and M1A1 or A2

                        M1 only one proven in combate (other then Challenger, but thats English so we wont count that LOL). Helps if you keep starting wars with people. Image what would happen if the Germans decided to go to war with someone for no reason these days? Remarkable record for the M1 in 2 wars Dwight? Not like they were up against much was it. Not doughting it's abilities but lets face it Iraq didn't have much to offer. The fact that you lost a couple is a bit of a shock (I was allmost in tears).
                        Report Abuse
                        M1abramsRules
                        • Member since
                          June 2003
                        Posted by M1abramsRules on Friday, August 1, 2003 8:48 AM
                        hmmmmm.... let's start on the T-72. Its gun calibre may be big, but it is not as powerful as most other MBTs these days, It has been knocked out in droves by Mekavas and M1s. The merkavas, although they have the best crew survivability in the world, its gun isn't the most powerful in the world, and its slow as molasses in january. but panzerIV is right, the Leclerc and the leopard 2 and C1 Ariete, etc. would probably have as good a combat record as the M1 and Challenger, but I say whats the use of having a MBT if you don't fightWink [;)]

                        for mine see top-left corner. only the Leclerc is faster, I'd say its gun is at the very top, and armor I would say the Merkava has got it pushed into 2nd place. besides it has combat-experienced crews (which can be a deciding factor)
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 1, 2003 10:55 AM
                        Ok i agree the T-72 has been knocked out, but i still think it looks cool....lol
                        Report Abuse
                        M1abramsRules
                        • Member since
                          June 2003
                        Posted by M1abramsRules on Friday, August 1, 2003 12:05 PM
                        I agree, it does look cool.Smile [:)] low turret on relatively flat hull, woops just looking at it I realize it is faster than the Leclerc and Abrams(50mph-45.6-45), but thats because it doesn't have as much armor. (it,s 85,000 lbs compared to the Abrams119,000)(leclerc is 117,000)
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 1, 2003 2:35 PM
                        I have to agree with most that you can't argue with crew survivability but overall in personal opinion i think the Leopard 2A5 would be better mostly due to it's diesel engine. That gas turbine is nice but you can't beat the rumble of the diesel to make you feel secure in your hole.
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 1, 2003 10:25 PM
                        Sean,
                        Or deaf on the battlefield. Not that the Abrams is much quieter...
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 2, 2003 2:06 PM
                        I've seen Leopards and M1's train. As an M1 cmdr, I sure would have hated to have to fight the Germans in their Leopards. But, I would still pick the M-1
                        Report Abuse
                        maddafinga
                        • Member since
                          March 2003
                        • From: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
                        Posted by maddafinga on Saturday, August 2, 2003 2:19 PM
                        << Image what would happen if the Germans decided to go to war with someone for no reason these days?>>


                        The Germans have already done enough of going to war with someone for no reason to last them for decades to come. The last time that happened, they had better tanks than us going in, but we still beat them in droves. The real stregnth of American armies is adaptability and the ability and freedom to improvise new and better solutions to a problem. That can overcome any mechanical advantage.
                        Fwiw, I have to go with the M1 also though :)

                        madda
                        Madda Trifles make perfection, but perfection is no trifle. -- Leonardo Da Vinci Tact is for those who lack the wit for sarcasm.--maddafinga
                        Report Abuse
                        Panther 44
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: The Buckeye State
                        Posted by Panther 44 on Saturday, August 2, 2003 3:42 PM
                        O.K. guys, the general consensus is the Abrams ( I think I detect a little prejudice), still as an American I'm very proud of the fact that we
                        have it. Maybe it's the best because we have taken armour from the British and the gun from West Germany. So we have accumulated the best of
                        all worlds. But, which do you think rank 2nd and 3rd? How great is the difference? Abrams a 9.2, Challenger a 9.0, or maybe the Leopard or
                        Merkava.
                        While I'm at it, soccia, what is a C1 Ariete? I'm not making fun, I'm just not that knowledgable about armor and have never heard of it.
                        So, now that we see which was voted #1, where do the other two place and what's the margin of victory?
                        Regards,
                        Joe
                        Just remember, ignorance is no excuse for the law. - Moe
                        Report Abuse
                        M1abramsRules
                        • Member since
                          June 2003
                        Posted by M1abramsRules on Saturday, August 2, 2003 6:39 PM
                        C1 ariete is the I talian MBT that was built in 1982 to replace their m47 pattons. 2nd I'd say is the Leclerc with the Leopard 2 a close 3rd.
                        Report Abuse
                        Panther 44
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: The Buckeye State
                        Posted by Panther 44 on Saturday, August 2, 2003 6:49 PM
                        M1,
                        Thanks for the clarification on the C1Ariete. I was guessing that it may have been Italian but just didn't know.
                        Regards,
                        Joe
                        Just remember, ignorance is no excuse for the law. - Moe
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 2, 2003 7:19 PM
                        QUOTE: Originally posted by M1abramsRules

                        C1 ariete is the I talian MBT that was built in 1982 to replace their m47 pattons. 2nd I'd say is the Leclerc with the Leopard 2 a close 3rd.


                        WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT a french tank 2nd a German tank 3rd ?????????
                        where is the Challenger 2 or Challenger 1 two tanks with combat action, all the photos ive put up on this thread have been taken in hostile land (and no its not france)
                        the challenger hasnt lost a crew to any hostile action

                        a thing about the Abrams http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/default.asp?target=abrams2.htm&source=abrams_lessons_learned
                        its a shame the French didnt back the war instead of trying to stop it
                        Report Abuse
                        M1abramsRules
                        • Member since
                          June 2003
                        Posted by M1abramsRules on Saturday, August 2, 2003 7:27 PM
                        well they all have 120mm guns and probably about the same armor(they should declassify that info). but here is the clincher: the challenger is bigger(and heavier), so it doesn't go near as fast or near as far. its engine isn't as powerful either(1200hp compared to 1500hp for the leclerc and leopard.) I think the challenger is a great tank, but its underpowered.
                        Report Abuse
                        M1abramsRules
                        • Member since
                          June 2003
                        Posted by M1abramsRules on Saturday, August 2, 2003 7:28 PM
                        But they do combat-experienced crews too, I forgot. with that I'll give them all a three-way tie
                        Report Abuse
                        Panther 44
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: The Buckeye State
                        Posted by Panther 44 on Saturday, August 2, 2003 8:25 PM
                        Captain Caveman,
                        I feel that most are pretty close as well, but when it comes to looks (I know ,it doesn't affect perfomance) I think the Challenger is the meanest looking in the whole group. Just looks like it could rip to pieces anything that gets in it's way.
                        Joe
                        Just remember, ignorance is no excuse for the law. - Moe
                        Report Abuse
                        M1abramsRules
                        • Member since
                          June 2003
                        Posted by M1abramsRules on Saturday, August 2, 2003 10:23 PM
                        QUOTE: Originally posted by Captain Caveman

                        the challenger hasnt lost a crew to any hostile action

                        not hostile anyway. was it 2 men they lost when 1 tank fired on another?

                        note: I am not ribbing you, I do not consider our (I consider myself more an american than a canadian) ally's causalties humorous.
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 3, 2003 8:41 AM
                        But the Challenger looks almost the same as an Abrams. Challenger didn't go as deep as the Abrams did in Iraq.
                        Report Abuse
                        12
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