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How NOT to use light aromred vehicles!

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  • Member since
    November 2005
How NOT to use light aromred vehicles!
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 11:44 PM
I found this article at military.com.
I thought you guys might like it.

William S. Lind: How NOT to Use Light Armored Vehicles

One day in the late 1970's, when I was a defense staffer for Senator Gary Hart, I got a call from an Armed Services Committee staffer asking if I knew anything about Light Armored Vehicles (LAVs), which are what we used to call armored cars. A bit, I replied. What did I think of them, he asked? I said I liked them for operational maneuver, because they are wheeled, and most operational (as opposed to tactical) movement is on roads.

That was the beginning of the Marine Corps' LAV program. We soon roped in a one-star at Quantico named Al Gray, and within a few years the Corps had some LAVs. The concept for which they were purchased was very clear: to form soviet-style Operational Maneuver Groups for use against Third World countries. We all knew that LAVs are tactically fragile, and must be used in ways that avoid heavy combat. We also knew that the tank the U.S. armed forces were then buying, the M-1, was too heavy and used too much fuel to be able to maneuver rapidly over operational distances. The LAVs could fill the gap.

As one of the Urvater of the Marines' LAV program, I was pleased to hear a couple years ago that the Army was now also planning to buy LAVs. Good, I thought; they too have recognized that the M-1 is more a Sturmgeschuetz or a Jagdpanzer than a real tank, and they need something else for operational maneuver.

I should have known better, given that we are talking about the U.S. Army. Nonetheless, it was with unbelief, then horror, that I learned what the Army was really buying LAVs (called Strykers) for: urban combat. And now, the first Stryker units are to be sent to Iraq.

The magnitude of the idiocy involved in using Light Armored Vehicles in urban fighting, where they are grapes for RPGs, is so vast that analogies are difficult. Maybe one could compare it to planning a fireworks display on board the Hindenburg. Urban combat is extremely dangerous for any armored vehicle, including the heaviest tanks, as the Israelis can testify after losing several Merkavas in the Gaza strip (to mines--real big ones). Why? Because for opposing fighters, regular infantry or guerillas, the old sequence from the German "men against tanks" is easy. The sequence is, "blind 'em, stop 'em, kill 'em." Armored vehicles are already blind in cities, because distances are short; the safest place near a hostile tank is as close to is as you can get, because then it can't see you. Stopping is also easy, because streets are narrow and vehicles often cannot turn around. And with LAVs, once they are blind and stopped, killing is real easy because the armor is, well, light. That's why they are called Light Armored Vehicles.

In the first phase of the war in Iraq, the jousting contest, the Marine Corps lost M-1 tanks and it lost Amtracks, its amphibious personnel carrier. But it lost no LAVs. That is a testament, not to the vehicles, but to how they were employed.

But now, in the second phase of the Iraq war, and in future phases as well, there will be no role for operational maneuver. And there will be no role for LAVs or Strykers. If the Army insists on sending them into Iraqi towns and cities, they should first equip them with coffin handles, because all they will be is coffins for their crews.

When I first came to Washington in 1973, I was quickly introduced to an old saying about the American armed forces: the Air Force is deceptive, the Navy is dishonest, and the Army is dumb. It seems some things never change.

William S. Lind is Director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism at the Free Congress Foundation.
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 11:52 PM
Interesting...but probably true.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 21, 2003 4:32 AM
What does Major Rob think about this?
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Thursday, August 21, 2003 6:03 AM
LAVs are great, provided they remain upright. For years the USMC has had a high rate of accidents in LAVs resulting in the vehicle falling over. And if Naval Safety Center accident statistics and conversations with other Marines is any indication, it doesn't appear to be improving a lot, despite increased awareness and training.
Gip Winecoff

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 22, 2003 6:39 PM
Strong words from a person in that level of authority.
And this came from the official u.s. defence network web site.
Theirs some other cool stuff their.
www.military.com
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 22, 2003 7:23 PM
An LAV in an urban environment is a death-trap. It is only armoured against 7.62mm and an RPG would turn it into a smouldering wreck. The ONLY way to clear a city is with infantry, this has been proven over and over. If a general wants to send in LAVs he should ride the first vehicle as the first and last of a column will be the first and second vehicles destroyed. This will get rid of stupid generals and give the next one in line a first-hand lesson in tactics.
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: NE Georgia
Posted by Keyworth on Friday, August 22, 2003 8:35 PM
Ask the NVA about armor and cities. The NVA sent a couple of columns of T-54's into An Loc and lost most of them to ARVN Rangers with LAW's, satchel charges and captured RPG-2's. Seemed the dinks never thought of sending supporting infantry with their armor,and they also didn't know to separate their vehicles in column. Bumper to bumper traffic led to NVA tanks getting clobbered on the ground by infantry and by the first use of TOW missiles from two very quickly modified Hueys. I realize I digressed a bit from the original topic, but the lessons were taught a long time ago; seems some people just don't go to class.
"There's no problem that can't be solved with a suitable application of high explosives"
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 23, 2003 12:20 AM
Don't most people realize that we are doomed to repeat history? The military is a foremost example of this. If they want to send LAV's in there, go ahead. Make sure they're remote control. though. Most of the brass don't really realize what they are doing, as most of them are calling the shots from the Pentagon, not from the lines, where the decision SHOULD be made.

demono69
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 23, 2003 2:13 AM
If there is one thing I have learnt from history, it is that politician's and general's never learn from history.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:10 PM
Pure ignorance.. "Our LAV's can stop em! Those other incidents were in the last century, people"

Aren't we glad we have people like that looking after us?
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 23, 2003 7:06 PM
Ignorance is a lack of education, stupidity is the inability, or lack of desire, to learn---they have been educated so, therefore, they must be stuipid.

"Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever."
  • Member since
    April 2014
Posted by r13b20 on Saturday, August 23, 2003 7:49 PM
Figures a Marine would bad mouth the other services. (see comments at the end of the article) I could say alot about the Corps. but I won't. I respect all the services but I AM a U.S. ARMY veteran. (attitude understandable?) I think the basic premice is correct. Let's hope and PRAY for the safety of all our service members everywhere!!!!!1
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