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Least successful WW2 tank?

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 11, 2003 2:14 PM
‘Success’ depends upon a lot of factors. Each vehicle was designed to fulfill a need of its using nation. For example, even though the M22 was used in a limited combat role by the British, it was designed to be glider transportable and in that since, it was a success; even though the US Army didn’t employ it. Under gunned, thin skinned and poorly powered? Certainly, but what airborne infantryman is going to turn down armor support, even in the form of an M22? Not many I’d guess.
Also, each vehicle had its shortcomings. The Sherman was known for being thin skinned, but I challenge anyone to find a WWII tank that was more of a pleasure to operate (as far as standard transmissions and size goes). Ease in operation results in a crew that’s more rested and ready for battle. For example, the T-34 is a bear to drive and its backless turret seats mean that the gunner has to not only operate the turret, but hold on to something or stand up, resulting in battle fatigue. The Tiger II was easy to drive (no haven’t driven that one), but it was too heavy to go many places... otherwise it was a good tank, except for its limitations in maneuver. The Churchill? Good tank until you went to maintain the engine. A tank in maintenance is one less in battle.
So, do you see where I’m going with this? If the tank fulfilled (or was able to fulfill, if not deployed) the role it was designed for, it was a ‘success’... some were just more successful than others! Also, it’s difficult to choose a ‘worse design’ as we’re looking back over 60 years at the event and although an M13/40 or Chi-Ha might look like junk to us now, they may have fulfilled the role they were designed for prior to being ‘outgunned’.
Worse tank of WWII? TOG II (The Old Gang 2) by the British.... they should’ve known better than to throw developmental money away on a trench crossing tank!

2 cents given.

Regards all!

Ron.
  • Member since
    June 2003
Posted by M1abramsRules on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 5:03 PM
hmmmm........ wonder why. the type 90 has a very slow production rate and is the most expensive tank in the world.
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Tochigi, Japan
Posted by J-Hulk on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:01 AM
Hi, Mike!Smile [:)]

I'll be sure to give a 97 a good rub for ya (hope I don't break something!)

Good points about the psychology of warfare.

I was talking about the topic of weak Japanese armor with my club buddies here (they're all Japanese). I asked why, with the size and might of ships like the Yamato, Musashi, and Shinano, and great aircraft designs like the Zero, Hayate, and Raiden, why oh why was the armor so pathetically weak? The main answer: Japan, as a sea-going Island nation, thought land power was unimportant and focused it's attentions on the Navy and aircraft (Navy and Army. There was no separate air force). They had had plenty of success with what they had in Manchuria and other places, facing weak enemies with minimal weapons, so they never felt the urgency for tougher armor.

Another interesting point was that within the Japanese military, there was fierce and sometimes violent infighting, with the Navy, Army and aviation interests all going behind each other's backs (or right in each other's faces) to treacherously get funding and appropriation for their respective groups. There are even stories about skirmishes erupting if Navy officials showed up at an Army facility!
The army (aviation notwithstanding) always lost out in these appropriations battles, I'm told. Thus, the poor army crews were lucky to get the equipment they did!

To this day, based on conversations I've had with JGSDF personnel, the army still gets the short end of the stick. These days, it's the Koku Jieitai that gets the funding and appropriations.
Not hard to believe when you realize Japan's most prevalent MBT is still the Type 74 (designed in the 60's) while the Koku Jietai is flying Mitsubishi-built F-15s and the new semi-indigenous F-2A (based on the F-16).

The Type 90 MBT is a world-class modern MBT, to be sure, but they do not have many of them.
~Brian
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Sunny Florida
Posted by renarts on Tuesday, September 9, 2003 11:28 PM
J-Hulk, I'm jealous. As much of a hard time as that kit gave me I've become smitten with the little guys. In fact I've started looking into alot of these smaller tanks and wonder what was anyone thinking when they took steel, guns and tracks to come up with these designs. I think that as unsuccessful as it may have been it (japanese armor) served its purpose for the time. As I said, the chinese had what? US, British, Dutch and French forces had what for armor in the Pacific? The Japanese just picked a fight with the wrong kid in the schoolyard. (Only a fool brings a stick to a gun fight). I think they only became unsuccessful once the allies brought their armor to play and supeior firepower to bear. (They chose....poorly.)

As for some of the German monsters that were used they had their points. How many Sherman crews went looking for a fight with a Tiger, Panther, Elefant or Stug? Psycologicly I think they were almost as successful as the guns in them were intended. What cities would have resisted had the Germans brought a battery of RR guns to bear? Even today we are carrying on military actions based upon spotty intelligence and information. The psycological effect of weapons or the perceived threat they carry can be just as damaging.

With warfare comes a technological evolution whos proginy render "unsuccessful" their progenetors. I am sure cavalry felt awfully bent at the advent of air warfare and the strategic and tactical importance of motorized cav. History has made this lesson painfully evident. The armored knight to the archer, to gunpowder to the machine gun to the missile. Each generational improvement rendering its predecessor unsuccessful.

Rub a 97 for me.

Mike
Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
  • Member since
    June 2003
Posted by M1abramsRules on Tuesday, September 9, 2003 7:09 AM
you can't go on what a tank did later in the war, as opposed to when they built it. the T-34 was the best tank in its day IMHO. my pick: someone said something about the m22 locust, forget that, what about its predecessor, the light tank mk VII purdah/tetrarch.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 9, 2003 7:03 AM
LOL.. J Hulk... I read your earlier post about japanese Armour.... maybe we should devote more time to the topic & less to splitting hairs (anyone else listening out there?). Because Italian & Japanese tank designers were obviously thinking about cars & not tanks in WW2.... what do the rest of the team think? (& a Lada is more like a tank than a Ferrari, thats for sure!)
Ian
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Tochigi, Japan
Posted by J-Hulk on Tuesday, September 9, 2003 6:24 AM
Dwight, yup, second time for Banzai Cliff for me. It's sooo beautiful there, it's hard to imagine the horror that reigned there almost 60 years ago!

Iano, Surprised the T-34 was mentioned here? Heck, I even mentioned Panthers and Tigers, based on their lack of success in winning the war for Germany! The T-34 was a very successful design. They helped win the war!

But I know what ya mean.
~Brian
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 9, 2003 4:07 AM
Ummmm... Guys, dont forget that the T-34 was the father of the Panther... and the birth of modern tanks from there... I would never have thought the T-34 would get a mention on this topic... Boasting a ground pressure of only .8kg/cm (compared to, for example, the Sherman @ 1kg/cm & the Panther @ .88kg/cm) it floated over the terrain, was reliable & and gave birth to an entire combat family. Well sloped armour made it a difficult proposition to knock out. Sure, second generation Armour beat the snot out of it... but what do you expect? Everone learnt from the success the T34 enjoyed and improved on it...
By the way, the KV 85 & Is 1 were different beasts, just looked simular.
Take it easy, Ian
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Monday, September 8, 2003 7:45 PM
J-Hulk,

Going to the "bansai cliff"? (Oh, did I say it right?). Lucky you!

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Tochigi, Japan
Posted by J-Hulk on Monday, September 8, 2003 6:25 AM
Now now, Leopold! Don't be so hard on yourself!
You are undoubtedly one of the most knowledgeable people in these hallowed forums when it comes to the Ferdinand/Elefant.

I know I primarily call it "Elefant" simply because I had built the Italeri kit a zillion years ago, and didn't know it (or it's variation) by anything else. But now I know! This thread has been very enlightening on several topics.
Good work, fellas!

Mike, glad to see someone agrees shares my assessment of the hapless Japanese armor (did you see my post a page or 2 back?). Having seen Type 97s and 95s up close in Saipan last year (and again next week! Whooooeee! Beach & tanks!), I'm fully convinced that I could put my fist right through the glacis if I had too. Those poor crews had it tough.

Perhaps that Chi-ha of yours was exacting a small bit of revenge!Wink [;)]
~Brian
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 8, 2003 5:02 AM
You are correct Blistex, the Elefant and the Ferdinand are two different variants, the original designation being the Ferdinand, which lacked the hull MG, and the rebuilt Eastern Front survivors, with the added MG and cupola from a Sturmgeschutze III G were renamed by Hitler as Elefants. Many books, including Schiffer's Elefant - Jagdtiger - Sturmtiger, and Squadron's Panzerjager in action, just to name a few, erroneously use the two names interchangeably. For some reason, Elefant seems to be the more popular of the two names and is commonly used to name both variants. I too am guilty of this sin, and deserve to be hung from my heels and beaten with a stick.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 8, 2003 2:17 AM
The Russian T-35 was a nice waste of time, and IMO the worst tank of the war (excluding the Mause). It was a huge! Land battleship that had 5 turrets, with guns that were incapable of destroying it's possible rivals at any distance over 300m, and was able to be disabled by tanks originating 10 years before the war even started!

It was slow, loud, huge, and utterly useless! At least the Mause could destroy tanks with it's guns and take punishment from guns larger than 20mm without bursting into flames.

p.s. The Elefant and Ferdinand were 2 different varients, just though that I'd mention that since many of you are referring to the elefant as vunerable to infantry because it lacked a MG (which it didn't).
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Sunny Florida
Posted by renarts on Sunday, September 7, 2003 11:22 PM
Great stuff guys, I know I'm seeing alot of good information being presented, but it comes down to the original question...."what in your opinion". Tigermann I hope you don't know when to quit, each question or direction this thread takes opens up a new channel of information for presenting your "solicited" opinion. As has been said, the nice thing about this forum is that we are all adults and can have differences of opinions and no one gets upset. So regardless of how it plays out on paper or in the books it still comes down to your opinion.

My opinion? The Big German stuff was too little, too late. It failed to meet its desired expectation whether by design flaw, lack of material, lack of tactical expertise or application or bad design criteria. Therefore it was a failure. They lost. While it can and has been said that it was misused, it was still unsuccessful because of its misuse. Same can be said for the early Shermans, French, Czech, and Japanese armor that was poorly matched up against superior opponents or more capable and adept crews. I think if you had the ability to ask any ghost of any soldier in those ill fated vehicles he would tell you his particular tank was the least successful.

Although I think almost all the Japanese armor while functional for conquering chinese peasants and under equipped armies and islanders, was ill matched against most allied equipment brought to bear against it. I would have to say that it was the least successful of the lot. (Although the model of the 97 certainly tore me up pretty thoroughly...)

Just my opinion.

Mike
Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Sunday, September 7, 2003 7:35 PM
Sphealey the KV85 often has been refered to the IS 1 or JS 1. The IS/JS family is more or less an improved KV. Cool [8D]

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 7, 2003 6:33 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerman

The T-34 only upgunned in 1944. The armor more or less stayed the same. The KV I had better armor throughout the war, but the T-34 far outnumbered the KV in production. Disapprove [V]Tongue [:P]


The T-34 was a lot faster than the KV I and KV II too. I think there was a KV-85 that was better than the T-34/84, but the IS-2 and IS-3 came out soon after that.
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Sunday, September 7, 2003 2:20 PM
Hi J-Hulk. This has certainally become quite a topic. Little did I realize how debatable it would get. I got quite a history leason on the Elefant from Leopold. Big Smile [:D] I also learned alot on RR guns. Yes, I see how you were pointing out why the German heavies were considered failures and you are right. This has been the most spirited topic that I have been involved in. This is what is nice about these forums: to discuss problems or topics and at the same time to be educated by others. Needless to say I have learned much on this one! Approve [^]

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Tochigi, Japan
Posted by J-Hulk on Sunday, September 7, 2003 1:50 PM
Hi, Tigerman! I agree with you 100%.
But how about this: all the wonderful German armor was too big and too complex to produce in the numbers needed to win the war, which must be viewed as a huge design flaw. "Ifs" cannot be considered at this point. They could not be produced in sufficient numbers due to their designs (and lack of raw materials, of course).

I know I'm just being silly, and not really addressing the spirit of the "design" question as it was presented here (that is, I certainly don't believe the Sherman was a technically superior design to the Tiger II), but it's kinda interesting, don't you think?

Quantity seems to beats quality every time!
~Brian
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Sunday, September 7, 2003 1:39 PM
I guess I don't know when to shut up. Wink [;)] In no way am I knocking the T-34 and I agree with the statements about it. On the flipside, J-Hulk said the Tiger etc. were on the losing side and thus were unsuccessful designs. Well....if they were produced on the scale of the Sherman and T-34, the war would have lasted much, much longer. I doubt anyone would say the Sherman and T-34 were better tanks overall than the Panther or Tiger. True they had their faults: poor engines, heavy weight, etc. Possibly their biggest fault were difficulty in production. Only some 7500 or so were built compared to 40,000 T-34s and 54,000 Shermans and variants, or a 12:1 ratio over the Germans. The Allies also owe a huge thanks to their overwhelming air superiority that no doubt took out a considerable amount of German heavies thus making it easier for the Shermans to march Eastward. Thanks for being easy on me this time Leopold! Cool [8D]

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Tochigi, Japan
Posted by J-Hulk on Sunday, September 7, 2003 1:15 PM
Excellent point, Robert. Those "flaming coffins" carried on for decades after WWII. Must've had something going for them.
Then again, maybe they were just cheap and plentiful!
T-34/85s carried on for a while too, no? North Korea, North Vietnam, some Middle Eastern countries too, I believe.

I've alluded to this before, but here it is again:
Shermans and T-34s won the war for the Allies. Therefore, they were successful designs.
Panthers and Tigers and Elefants (and Leopolds and Doras and Carls and Lokis, etc.) lost the war for the Axis powers. Therefore, they were unsuccessful designs.

That's only from a "big picture" point of view, which obviously the Axis powers didn't have. Of course, the winning and losing is much more complex than that, but it is certainly the bottom line.

~Brian
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by shermanfreak on Sunday, September 7, 2003 12:49 PM
QUOTE: Wait till sherm reads this


Even though I don't think it was the worst tank of W.W.II, I fully agree with Edog's statement of the KISS principal being in full use here. Mass production, ease of maintenance, adaptability all came into play. Would I have wanted to be sitting in one of these staring down the barrel of an 88 ..... not a chance.

But remember the much maligned Sherman had quite a post war career with usage in many countries well into the 70's and in a very rare case ... the 90's. Quite a tribute to a vehicle that was quickly designed, quickly produced, and had many changes made to it almost on the fly.

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 7, 2003 2:51 AM
Wait till sherm reads this… LOL!! Hey, you have to admit that at least the Sherman tank got the job done. And as far as the T-34, WATCH IT!! This is one of my favorite tanks.Wink [;)]

But seriously, I would say that the strongest features of the T34, and the Sherman were the ease of production, and maintenance. The KISS theory worked well in this case. Unfortunately this was not much of a strong point if you were one of the poor guys driving a sherman.

I guess the moral of the story is that every tank of WWII seams to have failed in some sense.

But then again, don’t mind me because I’m apparently fatuous.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 7, 2003 2:23 AM
Hey, you guy's are doing just fine. Besides, don't worry, I only shoot at fatuousness. Carry on! But just remember: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"- Dr. Carl Sagan
I'll be watching........
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Saturday, September 6, 2003 7:08 PM
Okay, don't bash me. If people are are going to knock the Sherman, then you must knock the T-34. Yes, the T-34 was a decent tank....for 1941-1942. After the Panther and Tiger hit the Eastern Front, it was immediately outclassed. The only thing that saved it was sheer numbers, like the Sherman. The Russians just outproduced the Germans-period! The T-34 only upgunned in 1944. The armor more or less stayed the same. The KV I had better armor throughout the war, but the T-34 far outnumbered the KV in production. Yes the Sherman wasn't a great tank, but it could hold its own against Panzer IV's and less, but it was so mass produced, it just totally outnumbered the smaller German heavy tank production. Believe me, I'm not defending either tank, just making a point. Oh, Leopold, please don't chime in with a rebuttal. Disapprove [V]Tongue [:P]

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 6, 2003 6:41 PM
I agree with bilbirk. The Shermans didn't exactly have the best track record, but when you churn out that many, something's going to get blown up. Some crews just had some lucky shots.

demono69
  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Camp Leatherneck, Afghanistan
Posted by bilbirk on Saturday, September 6, 2003 3:18 PM
THE M4 SHERMAN TANK. The only reason it did anything cause of all that were made. But everybody spouts off about this fault and that fault but what about the casualties we suffered with this piece of junk. It should have been pulled out of production as soon as the Pershing came off the drawing board!!! I have had the fortune(misfortune )of driving one of these FLAMING COFFINS when i was stationed at FT Knox. Just remember how many lives were lost because of******poor planning.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 4, 2003 4:41 AM
Edog: "leopold, what are you stating here??? That the RR guns were thought to be useful, and hence the production of them was justified?" "Can you not agree with anything I say??? "
Leopold: "So, were railroad guns a huge expenditure of men and materials? Sure. Were they a total waste of time? For the US? Sure, we never used them. For the Germans, probably so, they could have spent their effort on things like more aircraft, tanks, subs, etc." " "Railroad guns never were capable of being used in a strictly tactical sense since they were too large and their design was intended for strategic use. They had only a small role in deciding the outcome of any campaigns or battles" "after this campaign,(Sevastopol, May 1942) the need for these huge weapons had passed and no, I do not think that the continued manufacture of these could be justified." Dora's 48 shots at 7 targets is both a testament to how little she was used, certainly NOT justifing her cost of over 10 million Reichmarks, and to how effective her 7.1 to 10 ton shells were at decimating her targets. They didn't run out of shells after 48 rounds, they ran out of targets. If Dora HAD been completed in time for the Battle of France and provided with German air superiority, she would have made short work out of the Belgian forts and the Maginot Line and then gone on to Gibraltar and turned it into a lunar landscape as well. Then, and only then, she MIGHT have paid off her debit. Did I say, quoting you; "That the RR guns were thought to be useful" Yes, that is why WE built over 630 of them, let alone the total number built by the Germans, the French, the English, The Soviets and the Italians. And then: "and hence the production of them was justified?" Reread my above quotes. You seem to think that just because my moniker is "Leopold", that I must be a die-hard, pro-railroad gun fanactic. Sorry, "Probably so" means I'm agreeing with you, Yes, they were a total waste of time, since they were not used for their INTENDED ROLE. Despite the fact that Karl was ready for action by 1939, he was not used (according to my sources)in the Battle of France. Whether this was because of Karl's disappointingly short firing range (which surely would have made him succeptable to counter-battery fire from the French forts, and the reason all the 600mm mortars were rebored to 540mm and the shell weight cut in half in order to double the range in 1942), or due to the change of tactics used by the Panzerwaffe (most probable) I can not say. Regardless, these two weapons, the "Karl" series of mortars and Dora were specifically designed (before the war) with only one purpose, the reduction of heavily armored fortifications, particularly the Maginot Line. Since neither weapon was used for this purpose, their expenditures in manpower, materials and money, were a complete waste. Subsequent use of Karl at the Battle of Warsaw in the fall of 1944 was indeed a mere propaganda stunt, since the use of such a weapon against a unarmored, nonstrategic target like the city of Warsaw served little use other than it's propaganda value. The assertion that Krupp would accept such an enormous undertaking as building the world's largest artillery piece at over 10 million Reichmarks and years of development, simply for the purpose of providing Hitler with a gargantuan toy with which to scare his neighbors and sedate his inferiority complex, is laughable at best. Such folly would require substantial written proof to raise it beyond the level of mere spectulation.


  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 10:29 PM
QUOTE: that Jagdtiger has had an inturnal explosion, probably set of by its crew becouse of a breakdown or lack of fuel or a typhoon
i dont think it was the bazooka, they couldnt even knock out a T34 in korea


Hi Cap,

Actually according to that site, it was the Germans who reported that it was hit by a Bazooka. I don't believe it either.

The Americans credit the kill to an M-36 "Slugger" or "Jackson" which is more credible. Yes, a Typhoon could have done it. But I'll give it to the M-36.Wink [;)]

About the bazooka:

There were two types deployed in Korea, the M9 (2.36") which was also used in WWII and the newer M20 (3.5").

The M9 has already been proven not effective against German heavies in WWII and "yes" also against the T34's in Korea. But the US has to use them until the newer m20's arrive.

The M20's which replaced them are better and has proven very effective against T34's.

Just for info.

Big Smile [:D]


  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 9:51 PM
that Jagdtiger has had an inturnal explosion, probably set of by its crew becouse of a breakdown or lack of fuel or a typhoon
i dont think it was the bazooka, they couldnt even knock out a T34 in korea
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 9:15 PM
QUOTE: Only one Jagdtiger had be lost in action prior to 15 March 1945. This was at Rimling (Alsace) on 9 January 1945, an area that remained in German hands until late February.


Maybe this is the one.

http://www.100thww2.org/support/776combat.html

Just scroll down near the bottom of the page.

M-36 it says? (or a Bazooka???)

Wink [;)]

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