The Dark Side lures another victim! UPDATE! PICS!

QUOTE: Originally posted by wildwilliam Frosty, so i paint the whole thing black and then hold the nearest sized circle over the wheel and it masks the tire for me? I believe i have a artist's circle template (thin plastic w/ a bunch of round holes in it?) what keeps the paint from bleeding in? i guess keep the airbrush perpendicular to the mask? if i can find my template, can start painting wheels. but i guess i have to paint the tires first! thanks! ed.

wildw: sorry to b so slow in reply (very limited online time now that i'm back in school)
1) don't forget to mask over the surrounding holes once u find the one that fits ur roadwheels
2) put the frosted side of the template rite up against the wheel and spray the wheel head on
3) clean the template with water or thinner after use
or... spray the wheel/tire assembly in ur base color and then mount the wheel on a stand ( i use a paperclip bent to shape with a bit of masking tape wrapped around it to keep the wheel up off my work surface and another bit of masking tape to hold the paper clip steady on the work table while i rotate the wheel to paint the tire section...
4) i think ur rite about the "one piece missing at all times" rule, at least as far as my own limited experience has proved
5) tamiya being from japan and all, i wouldn't be suprised if a metric template fit better; i'm glad u were satisfied with the results anyway !
keep on tankin'....
frosty

Ed, sorry it took a while to get the pics up. For some reason, they were just not unzipping properly. But am glad all went well.

The Pz IV D is looking sweet. I love the kit, alhough I know it is a tedius clean up on some areas..considering how old the mold is. You are right about Tamiya's XF-63 Panzer Grey being a bit to dark. Scwarzgrau is supposed to on the blue shade rather then on a dark shade like XF-63 is. When I do a Scwarzgrua..I take Neutral Grey and add a little Flat Blue to the mix..but you look like you hit the nail on the head. The build is coming along very nicely, and hope you send me more pics soon to get up. Good job old timer

Cheers

Rob

Nice clean build going Ed !

Coming along nicely wildwilliam!!! Isn't the lure of the dark side insidious?? I just got started on armor myself recently so I know what you mean. I've been collecting kits and detail sets for a few years now and started a Tamiya Marder III (almost 2 years ago, but didn't do any building at all for a while). I'm almost done witih it now and it's been a lot of fun. Mine is becoming a very heavily used vehicle and it's actually been fun trying to make it look that "bad" Enjoy your self and learn some new techniques that don't quite apply to a/c (like I'm doing) and you have fun.

BTW, did you check behind your ear for the missing piece?

Eric

Sorry for the delay in getting an update.
i had gotten some work done, but suffered delays in getting the pictures ready.
then my emails w/ the pics were not getting thru to Moses.
nevertheless, here we are:
Monday night i painted the metal part of the road wheels Tamiya XF-53 (Neutral Grey).
i had read in another thread that the XF-63 (German Grey) seemed too dark, so i went with this lighter shade.
i took Frosty's advice and used the circle template to mask the rubber parts of the wheels.
results varied. at several points i wondered if the rims were some metric size as the choices i had on my template were:
'a little to big' and 'just a bit too small'.
i tried both, and eventually settled on the slightly oversized one.
i figured i could touch up w/ a brush later.
each wheel was mounted on a piece of sprue. i painted the backs first, dropping the template over the sprue and painting around it.

later, i determined that it would be easier to pull the sprue out, paint the back, and push it back in. then i would not have to paint around it.
once the back was done, i stuck the sprue into a foam block, held the mask over the front and sprayed that side. i tried it w/ the wheel vertical and horizontal. neither was 'easier' than the other for me.


then the wheel went onto another foam block to dry and the next one was started. i wiped the template now and then, but did not clean it w/ thinner as i was afraid of the thinner getting onto the black paint.
(because i knew i would be trying to go too fast for it to be all wiped off!)

when that was done, i returned to gluing bits together for the tank.
while getting ready to glue the top pieces on the 'eyes' on the front of the hull, i determined some nitwit had glued them on rotated 90 degrees! i rechecked the instructions and the box top picture. the instructions were inconclusive and i blame them! but the boxtop was rather convincing. i was able to slide the exacto blade under the pieces and cut them free. i cleaned up the backs and the hull w/ sanding sticks and put them back on in what i hope is the proper orientation.

before i started that job, i had removed a piece from the sprue to attach to the left rear fender. it looks like a little license plate holder. the back has a serious ejector pin mark on it, so i filled it w/ CA. once i was done mucking about w/ the 'eyes' on the front of the hull, the 'license plate' was nowhere to be found! a careful search of the floor yielded the missing road wheel hub from day 1, but no 'license plate'. recalling the CA on the back, i checked everything else on the table it might have glued itself to, plus my forearms, feet, and most of the stuff in between. it looks like i will be making a replacement piece from sheet styrene. (THEN it will turn up!)

is there a rule in armor modeling that at least one piece must be 'missing' at all times? i will have to be more careful and not jump from task to task so much. and maybe not try to do everything in the same square foot of a 40" x 30" table!

here are some pics of the upper and lower hull separate, and mocked up. feel free to comment, but i doubt the pictures are clear enough for you to pick out too much! i GOTTA get a better camera. but borrowers cannot be choosers i guess.






see the roadwheels lurking in the distance?

thanks for all your help!
ed.

Wildwilliam how's the project going? Your humor will fit right in with the guys and gals of this forum.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

Dwight,
they are an insidious group!
i see how they draw in the innocent and then the corruption starts!
notice how the kind glweeks subtley mentions individual linked tracks, PE & resin? and insinuates that i would do the same for a plane? in fact i am mostly an OOB builder w/ an occasional (ill-advised) scratch built detail or two. i'm more the kind of guy who gets a PE set for best friend's kit and tells him to let me know how it comes out.
my first armor model will be straight OOB. then i will look at it and say (like a poor imitation of a more skilled tread-head) 'these tracks don't drape properly, and these plastic details are too coarse! if i replace them w/ parts exceeding the original kit price by a factor of 3 and get a turned aluminum barrel, perhaps no one will notice my finger print etched into the hull w/ liquid cement!
anyway, i got a bunch more bits glued together yesterday.
also made sticks from sprue to hold the road wheels for painting.
a project in itself!!
then i painted them to simulate the rubber outer part.
i will try to take frosty's advice and mask the outer w/ my circle template, which i found. any opinion on Tamiya's XF-63 for the grey?

took today off to go to the cup race at Dover. see erock, we have another 'dark secret' in common.
once again i thank you all for you input and warm welcome, and i hope that you know i am jesting when i tease about the PE, resin, etc. i am not making fun of anyone but me!

ed.

Hi, wildwill.

I have not logged on for 2 days now and I can see that the deciples of the Dark Side have taken care of you quite well, I would just to welcome you here, then.

Don't forgit that most all of german armor was gas engined, so go out and look at your car tail pipe & muffler (especially if it's about a year or two old) to get a good idea of the colors your muffler will be. Ground up pastels work good here too. You'll know the insanity has really hit when you start buying individual track links (sooooo much nicer), PE, and barrels. I bet you do that with aircraft (the pe and resin anyway) and the use of it all on armor is basicly the same. good luck with it.

Don,
i meant that i had done some building by candlelight the night before.
i didn't post until the next day. hadn't actually had the computer on the night i started the build as the power went off at least 4 times!
actually, the inital post was made from the office, where the power almost NEVER goes out!

not familiar w/ the Trumpeter kit, nut i have a Mirage Vickers E (type A, i think) that may be similar. i'll find out when i start gluing bits, i guess. price was so low, i couldn't stop myself.
then i looked in the box and decided i would start w/ a Tamiya kit. :-)

Progress Update:
last night i put the support rollers on the lower hull and added the back panel.
also put the rear fender (?) sections on the upper hull.
took a good look at the road wheels. the rubber part seems very narrow.
still debating masking w/ template (as Frosty suggested) or painting the rubber part by hand.

i think i saw on a different post a while back that Tamiya's XF-63 is dark for Panzer Grey? any comments?

i have plenty left to glue, so the paint options are still wide open.

time to shut off the computer and get to the work table!
thanks,
ed.

If you are building by candle light . . .
How does your computer work?
Just askin'
I too was lured by the Dark side recently, the very, very dark side.
I got Trumpeter's M1A1 with mine roller as my introduction to armor.
(Quit laughing at me! It cost a buck, I shoulda seen that coming eh?)

Don

you might want to check these sites out:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/wmburns/Bmisc.html
http://www.missing-lynx.com/rare_world/rw02.htm

you should find some good reference material or tips at these places, I know I did when I learned of these pages ( thanks guys/gals ).

wildwilliam,
You mean the one I built or the real one in my section?

Renarts -
gee, i thought the technical term was bibliophile !
i know what you mean. i work two blocks from a used book store and i am in there 3 to 5 days a week it seems.
my book backlog puts my kit stockpile to shame!!
thanks for the leads, i will keep an eye out on line and on foot for some armor references.
i glued some more pieces together tonight. the hull is starting to look like something. still plenty more to go before i have to pick a paint scheme.

ed.

There is a series of publications called Allied & Axis. They are pictorial books of equipment and pretty comprehensive for what they cover. I've seen them for as low as $5.95 and as high as $15.95 depending on where you get them from. Pictoral wise I would say they are some of the best I've seen for resource material on variants and "in use" vehicles. The Squadron books on Panzer colors are worth the money I think.

As for getting skunked on books, it happens. I'm with you, I don't mind shelling out hard earned money on books that I can use and reference as well as glean information from but there is a limit. Although I think it comes down to how much is a particular piece of information or reference worth to you. I've spent a hefty sum of money on books that I was only interested in a few pages and a reference pic or two, but the information was well worth the expenditure because it was the only resource available.
The grail of books for US armor are the Hunnicutt books I guess. They are priced from $200-$700. But they are supposed to be the books to have for US armor. I have some bookseller friends of mine trying to run me down a copy or two of the Sherman Book. (They look at it as some sort of sport hunt to find these books at the lowest possible price. They got me a medieval book that was going for $200 for less than $80) Since I'm pretty much a book whore I will always look for good reference books.

Mike

Tigerman - i guess something w/ decent reference photos or drawings.
and some kind of color guide for camo patterns & such.
Renarts got me wondering when he was telling me to check & see how
the external eqpt was painted.

the history interest me, but i am not looking for a book that 'does it all'
i am not adverse to adding to my book collection (which fills my apt and a small
storage area!!) i just don't want to end up saying:
"i can't believe i spent $x on this worthless book"

i have a few "in Action" for planes, so i know they are pretty good.
and i have a few of the "Walkaround" books and think they are better.
also in the plane world there are 'Detail & Scale' (very good)
just wondering what the pecking order for armor references was.

i really appreciate all you guys helping me out.
ed.

Not quite sure what your looking for in a reference book. I have many of the In Action books by Squadron, they are quite handy. The Osprey Military New Vanguard books are similar in style, but go deeper on certain information such as development and deployment. They do cost a little bit more. Both are worth the price. Though I don't have any of the Schiffer books, they are cheap and cover a vast array of armor. Good luck.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

Mike - THANKS! i appreciate the info and effort it takes to type it up. i am getting ready to head back to the bench to get some work in tonight.
i have been checking out some armor sites looking at pics, and i think i will look for some books. but i don't think i am ready to pop for any of the heavy duty books just yet. the prices of some of them give me reason to pause! [:0]
but i can certainly afford the "In Action" for the Pzkpfw IV at least.
if any of you have any recommendations for good (German for now, sorry, Sherm!) armor reference books that cost less than the kit, please give me some leads. i know from scanning at greatmodels.com that there is no shortage of titles, but i don't know which ones are worth the $$
i don't think there will be any contests in my (near) future. and i will stick to OOB to start. there's plenty in this box to keep me busy & challenged!
thanks again!
ed.

Welcome Wildwilliam to the dark side. You must now answer to Lord Shermanfreak and all his disciples. MMoowwaahaaahaaaa.....

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

QUOTE: Erock - didn't the hot exhaust burn the paint off the mufflers?

Yes,

That's why it doesn't really matter if you leave them on. I usually give the exhausts a coat of Flat Black, then drybrush with a tad of Rust (Over the base color)

Once you go track you'll never go back WW.

I paint in assemblies. Turret, hull, wheels. A good airbrushing will get most of those areas that you might think would not. I use a stand with a lazy susan so I can spin the work as I paint it. It elevates it so I can get at it from different angles. This allows me to cover everything and see everything. Sometimes the turret will not fit after painting. This is because the layers of primer, paint, camo, etc. have removed any tolerance or "play". This is easily scraped away with a knife and will allow you to seat the turret.

Once done I put on my details like pioneer gear, cables, extra equipment etc. Sometimes this gear was painted the same color as the vehicle so do your research. Do not automaticly assume that all shovel or pick handles are brown or light tan. They are sometimes painted the same color as the vehicles base color. If the camo was quickly applied in the field, they may have been left in place when the vehicle was painted. If you have painted the vehicle and need to add parts after the fact, see where the parts contact and scrape the paint at the contact points so you get a plastic to plastic join. (some glues will attack the paint so they will not make a secure bond or in most cases the bond will only be as strong as the layer of paint).

Some parts will need to be painted prior to assembly. This is dependent on if your vehicle is buttoned up or how much detail you want to add into the build.

Wheels are the monotonous bane of every modeler I think. I put each wheel on a stick and then stick that into a length of styrofoam. Spray paint one side then the other. After they are dry, I go in by hand and paint the road wheel tires. This is done with a fine brush and is done as careful as possible without touching the rim (this actually seems tedious and is. But it will pass the time more quickly and be easier if the paint is fluid eough to flow but not thin enough to be transparent.). I tighten up the line of contact between the rim and tire by using a thick wash of black oil paint. Because I use acrylics, the thinner doesn't react with the acrylic and will capillary around the edge of the rim. Because it is a wash, it will do all the cool things washed are used for like collect along edges and in corners. Much like the edge created by rim and tire. If thick enough it will cover any "gap" and make for a nice clean line. Surface tension does the rest and when it dries it will look crisp. Any imperfection in the tonal value at that point will be hidden by any road weathering or the eye will assimilate the whole picture and will not register the imperfection becuase of the "visual noise" of the wheel as well as its size. I have used Frosty's suggestion of the circle template and either a US standard of measurement or a metric will give you any size you need to acurately mask the wheel. It is dependent on your own preference but both work well. Do yourself a favor though and clean the surface of the template after every use. Paint build up will render useless the tight edges and will make it harder to get a good seat. Remeber though, if the template is thicker than the rim edge you will have tire color on the edge of your rim. If you plan on showing and getting into the judging this could bounce you out of a dead heat. (Merely a consideration if you ever decide to go this route. It seems nit pickey but at the level that some guys build and show to, a necessary consideration when it comes to judging).

Weathering is optional. Some like to build show room or factory fresh vehicles. Noting wrong with it. In fact sometimes its harder to build to that level than it is to weather. But if you are going to weather, do it after assembly and as the last project before display.

Good luck

Mike

Redleg,
are those M109A6s on the 'previous' link Marder variants?

am thinking of doing mine in the basic grey from the campaign in Poland or France.
but those Afrika Corps schemes are attractive too.
i'd better buy another one!
uh-oh looks like the bug has bit!
ed.

Nothing like the lure of the good ol' tracked vehicles of the past present and the well, the soon to be?
Gotta love it!

Welcome!

That kit is a good build, I've three of them and they both went together very well
I painted mine dark yellow and pretty much have them looking like a showroom desplay ( for now anyway ). They're part of my large Dio plan with a few tigers and some other goodies with a german convoy trying to get back to the reich through the Brenner pass only to get caught up in a pass by some GI's on a hill and two US spitfires to shoot them up.
I just have to wait till I ETS out of the army to finnish it, due to it possibly getting destroyed in the move stateside.

Frosty,
so i paint the whole thing black and then hold the nearest sized circle over the wheel and it masks the tire for me?
boy, (or girl, in this case ), do i feel dumb!
i believe i have a artist's circle template (thin plastic w/ a bunch of round holes in it?)
wish i had asked abt this before i cut masks for my 1/48 Hamp!
live & learn.

what keeps the paint from bleeding in?
i guess keep the airbrush perpendicular to the mask?

for the missing 'hub cap' i already pirated a piece. not sure if the lost one fell in the radiator vanes by the hot water pipes along the floor or what. i figured it would turn up as soon as i glued something else in it's place.

if i can find my template, can start painting wheels.
but i guess i have to paint the tires first!
thanks!
ed.

gotcha!!!!
another one for the dark side....
about the road wheel thing, don't mask the wheels... use an artist's circle template (about $5 at Staples or most office supply places) to mask the tires and spray or airbrush ur road wheels.
for the lost piece, try shining a flashlight parallel to the floor(actually right on the floor) and the piece will cast a shadow. i lost a road wheel on one of my afv projects last nite, and it took me almost 30 minutes of looking.... but i found it in the end !
hth,
frosty

Sherm - back from your joyride in the German armor?
how's it handle compared to your usual ride?
i know i have to be careful, because i had a devil of a time painting around the fixed gear on a 1/32 Stuka. i really wished i had left it off until after! At least i had the good sense to leave the bracing for the horizontal stab off.

Erush-
not sure how i will do for pics. the only digital camera i can get my hands on (from work) does not shoot close ups very well.
i have used to to take some pictures of some winged models to keep my buddy posted, but it will not shoot good tight shots.
which is flattering for my work, because it should not be looked at too closely!![:0]

Erock -
didn't the hot exhaust burn the paint off the mufflers?

All -
my kit has rubber road wheels.
do you paint them grey and then mask to airbrush the rubber,
or paint it by hand or what?
i am not thrilled with the thought of making 32 round masks, but i will do it if that's the way to go.

thanks!
ed.

Good to see you're not trying to resist the lure of the darkside any longer Ed.

I see my brother Eric and my other brother Eric have taken good care of you here.

There is no right way, just the way you feel most comfortable with.
Myself, everything that can go on, does go on and gets painted with the base coat. Details I pick out later including tools, mufflers, etc.

Welcome to the dark side wildwilliam!!! It sounds like you've got the general idea on the build process. It also come down to personal preference. Some people will put every last piece on the kit before they even start painting. I pretty much go along with Erock as for my preferences, basically I assemble everything I can and still get a good paint job. I did attach most of the extra stuff on my Marder before I started weathering to give it an even apperence but I left off the rear basket and a few other items that would get in the way. Have fun with it and post us some progress pics

Eric

I hear ya'

In most tracked vehicle kits, the roadwheel assembly is usually the first and the most time consuming. UNLESS, you happen to have a kit with seperate track links (talk about spending some quality time at the model bench)