75mm M4A1 Knocks Out Tiger I

That's a neat story.. But it's about typical.. The Germans lost 1 Tiger to 11 tanks the Allies lost...

Good story. Definately a one in a million shot. It inspired suicidal Sherman crews for years to come, though.
"See, if they can do it..."

demono69

panther18:

You're right. That's why I mentioned that it's not everyday that a Sherman can have a chance to do this especially the earlier 75mm models. In fact, in about 5/6 or in this story 11/15 cases the Sherman is in the receiving end. But let us also remember that M4's were never designed to take on Tigers. On the other hand Tigers were designed to dominate tank to tank engagements. I mean tigers are awesome and deadly tanks. And I like them, too. That's why I said when this happens, it is quite intesting.

demono69:

Suicidal? I don't think that it is the right word for it...

While it is easy to praise Wittman and Carius for their feats (and they deserved it, too) it can also be said that such feats were accomplished partly (and I say partly) because they rode on a more capable and better-protected tank than their opponents (especially in the west front).
My heart still goes for the crews of the Sherman who despite knowing the shortcomings of their tanks in gun and armor, they had the courage to stay in the fight hoping that they can somehow outwit the enemy.

Heroic is a better term, don't you think?.

wow... Talk about dedication to duty and valor....

I'm only guessing that the allied tanker on the Western Front felt it was going to be the other guy that gets it, because of their numerical advantage in tanks and planes. Still, going head to head with a German heavy couldn't have been easy, even for the staunchest optimist tanker.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

Thanks Dwight.That was a very interesting read.

I wonder how many would have the guts to sit tight until they could see the "whites" of a tiger's commander's eyes. Dunno if I could.

Happy Modelling
Peter

Pete, I would probably already pass out just by seeing the muzzle of an 88 within five hundred yards of me if I rode the Sherman.

Hi, folks!
What a great story.
I was thinking about it, and ya know, from a crew survivability standpoint, it might actually have made more sense to attack Tigers stern-first, turret traversed rearward, as this fella did. The Sherman's gonna get just as rooked from the front as from the rear, but at least you'd get a Merkava effect with the engine an all facing the 88. This might have given the crew a little more protection than the "thin" frontal armor. The turret's still toast, of course!
And like this guy figured, you could scoot away quicker, too.

What do you all think?

What is amazing in all this is the fact that out of the 11 Shermans knocked out, there were no (immediate) fatalities...only 6 enlisted were wounded. Someone was definitely watching out for all those guys! That was an excellent read.
Gip Winecoff

Great article Dwight,

Gives you an idea what the US was up against.

QUOTE: .......estimate that they were between 25 and 30 yards from Tiger 221 when they fired. ........

I hate to say it, but that is generally a hunters kill range with a bow & arrow

QUOTE: Originally posted by demono69 Good story. Definately a one in a million shot. It inspired suicidal Sherman crews for years to come, though. "See, if they can do it..."

Definitely not a on-in-a-million shot. Allied and Soviet tankers destroyed many Tigers in combat. They didn't all get abandoned or die of old age.

Once they gained combat experience, allied tank crews were able to use tactics to frequently defeat the superior armour and weaponry of the German heavy tanks.

The first tank battle fought between U.S. and German armor in WWII, which occurred in North Africa, is perfectly illustrative of this. The Germans, from the 190th Panzer, rolled in confidently in their Panzer IV "specials," complete with long 75mm gun. The Americans had only Stuarts to fight with, but they also had their wits as their ally.

The Panzers strained so hard to get at and destroy the Stuarts in front of them (which they did), that they failed to properly reconnoiter the land around them, and so it was that the Stuarts lying in ambush behind a ridge roared out and pounced on the Panzers from behind, destroyed six in rapid succession, and sent the Panzer force streaming to the rear in headlong flight. "Our losses were considerable," according to the offical German records for the day. Six dead Stuarts for six dead Panzer IV specials! And a rout to boot.

America won the first tank battle with its Nazi foe. The Stuarts were the tigers that day!

And keep in mind that not every German tank was a Tiger or King Tiger or Jagdtiger. In fact, these big, heavy tanks, and the plethora of vehicles being simultaneously produced by the Germans, led to a decreased overall output of vehicles. In that way, the ponderous heavies actually helped the Allied war effort, although of course they were a nightmare for the individual tank platoons to overcome.

I watched a special on the history channel where a WWII fighter pilot gave his summation of a pilot's attitude. I feel his story also applied to those men in Shermans and other lighter tanks having to go up against the heavier German behemoths: "The briefing room would be full of pilots as the squadron commander gave his initial assessment: Well boys, of the hundred or so of you here, only one of you will be coming back. At this, each and every one of them were thinking to themselves about the other pilots: "You poor bastards." This was the type of self assurance, cockiness if you will, that enabled men in a time of war to carry on their missions. And this mentality was vital, because if you didn't have it, you were already dead.

Roy

QUOTE: This was the type of self assurance, cockiness if you will, that enabled men in a time of war to carry on their missions.

Right, and there's also the fact that 99 out of 100 pilots did not die. Nowhere near that percentage.

And the equivalent fact that there were only 500 or so Tiger II's and 1000 Tiger I's produced in the entire war, only a fraction of which were operational at any one time, and a fraction of THAT were operational on any one front at any one time. Most allied tankers did not have to deal with Tigers. They just claimed they did!

In fact, your average Sherman crew spent a lot of time shooting up German infantry postions, rushing forward to seize positions and cut off retreating enemy formations, etc. You know, the stuff tanks are supposed to do, rather than bragging that theirs is bigger than yours? At these tasks, the Sherman was superior to all of the German panzers, especially the Tigers.

Speaking of pilots, let's not forget the ground support lent by the tactical air forces who destroyed Pathers and Tigers like elephants stepping on snails.
I've talked to several WWII tanker vets and only one of three ever went up against a Tiger. Most talked about 'assault guns' which were fairly easy to flank and put out of comission. Of course, these are the guys who survived and tend to remember the highlights of their battles. I had an uncle who never came back from France.... a tanker.
Another point brought up earlier, a lot of tankers survived to get into another Sherman and carry on the fight. Many German tankers who survived a hit were captured when the Allies overran them.
All in all, a good historical account and a lot of fun to remember what those guys did for us 'youngsters'!

Ron.