Putting feelers out for a Kursk GB

I'm thinking about building the SU-122 for the GB. The only 1/35 scale kit that I've seen is the Tamiya, and I haven't found a review for it anywhere. Has anyone got the kit or has anyone built it and can comment on it?

I have the Dragon SU-100, and wondering if I could convert it to the SU-122 (sort of a reverse-retrofit).

I'm really interested in the Dragon SU-76, but all the reviews I've read recommend to run, not walk, away from that one.

Thanks,

Larry

Hermesminiatures-thanks for the digging & posting of pics.  I have several options for the T-34, involving homemade numbering/lettering and/or faded winter wash.  It's always good to have options....

espins1 wrote:

I had read about firing the MG 42 down the barrel in several of my Elefant/Ferdinand resources as well as in some of my books on the Battle of Kursk.

kcmat wrote:

espins1 wrote: (other than a few pistol ports and the ability to fire an MG 42 down the barrel ). Haven't read much about Ferdinands/Elephants and had never heard this. Was this a makeshift attempt at close in anti personal since they had no bow gun?

Yes, that was a desperate attempt to fend off the hoards of Russain infantry.  The Elefants were slow.  The Russians would hide in their trenches and wait for the initial punch of panzers to go past, then mop up the infantry and assault the Elefants.  Even German infantry were unable to protect the Ferdinands.  They were so huge and slow that they drew a lot anti-tank and artillery fire, which decimated the protecting panzer troopers.

I had read about firing the MG 42 down the barrel in several of my Elefant/Ferdinand resources as well as in some of my books on the Battle of Kursk.

espins1 wrote:

(other than a few pistol ports and the ability to fire an MG 42 down the barrel ).

Haven't read much about Ferdinands/Elephants and had never heard this. Was this a makeshift attempt at close in anti personal since they had no bow gun?

Was it the Ontos that had .50s hanging under the guns? I think so under the recoilesses. Though I understood this was more for verifieing aim than for personal or such.

And here are some photos and profiles that may prove useful.  Note how these images show the great variations from "artistic license" and the means with which the crews had to apply the paints. 

These are from another Squadron/Signal publications book "Panzer Colors III" by Bruce Culver

That profile came straight out of the Squadron/Signal Publications Armor Number 27 "Tiger in Action".  You gotta love all the varied schemes used by the Germans for both armor and aircraft. 

Here is a black and white shot as well:

 

 

Okay, I set a spark and cinders are lit. I will start a new thread for the GB.

Wow! Check that out! "Interesting" to say the least! I guess that opens up a whole new bunch of paint schemes to use...that Tiger is really nifty (brain working overtime on possibilities). Are there any other gray camo pics in your references? Also, what IS that reference? Finally, do they happen to give a color for that gray? Can I come up with any more questions in this, my 100th post (yay!)?  

Here is an interesting scheme of a 2nd SS "Das Reich" Tiger April 1943.  Notice it has a scheme of gray, yellow and green.  The Germans were doing a lot of experimenting with different camo schemes during this time.  Up until late in the war the schemes were applied in the field, which gave a lot of "creative license" to the individuals applying the camo patterns from various paint pastes that were provided to them.  What makes the colors even harder to match exactly is that they used all kinds of things to thin the paint with, water, gas and even diesel fuel! 

Espins, didn't you say a couple of posts back you weren't an expert on german armor? Seems to me that you know a thing or two...

I rooted through my stash to see what I had that would fit this GB...I have a lot of eastern front stuff, but only a couple of things that would qualify for Kursk. I have the DML Marder II and some Trumpeter KV-1's but those seem to be getting a lot of attention already. I just picked up a Nashorn - but it's the late variant (dang!), so unless I can find an early Nashorn or a Hornisse I think I'll have to go with the 251/1 Ausf. C I have kicking around.

I was perusing the paint schemes in the instructions, one of which is labeled "Kursk 1943", and the colors seem a bit...odd. I know it's partially me trying to convert the Gunze labels, but it seems like they're trying to tell me it's dark yellow with red brown and gray ("field gray") stripes? I did some cross checking with the charts in my other DML kits and something certainly isn't matching up color-wise. Was there some sort of yellow/brown/GRAY scheme I don't know about? I'll scan a pic of the instructions...tomorrow, hopefully.

Hermesminiatures wrote:

'Bout as sensible as what the Ferdinand crews did - sighting enemy infantry with the main gunsight, then firing an MG-42 down the barrel of the 88...

Sad that the Ferdinand crews had to resort to that.  It's a testimony to the flaws of the design, and the total misunderstanding of the strenth and weaknesses of the Ferdinand. 

They were used in the wrong role at Kursk.  Hitler envisioned the Ferdinand as a "Ramm Panzer" or breakthrough tank, a role to which it was completely unsuited to perform.  It was extremely heavy and the suspension was inadequate to handle the weight.  The design of the suspension was also flawed in the sense that you only had to knock out one set of wheels on a bogey to completely immobilize the tank.  It required six heavy prime movers to tow the thing!  It lacked any close-in defense against infantry (other than a few pistol ports and the ability to fire an MG 42 down the barrel ).  It was very slow, consumed a lot of precious fuel, and used an electric motor (run by the engines) which added more weight and used a lot of copper (a precious raw material).   

It's strengths were the insanely accurate and hard hitting 88mm PaK 43/2 L/71, and the thick armor plating that made it impervious to most anti-tank weapons except at extremely close ranges. 

They should have been employed as a stand off anti-tank weapon and positioned in places with a commanding view of the battlefield where they could have picked off Russian tanks with almost total impunity. 

espins - I really don't know much about the Russians using the T-34 in anti-aircraft mode. I'd assume they'd have used the usual 76mm timed HE shell, certainly not AP. I can't imagine it was very effective - maybe only against slow, low flying planes like the Stuka. 'Bout as sensible as what the Ferdinand crews did - sighting enemy infantry with the main gunsight, then firing an MG-42 down the barrel of the 88...

I got those pictures from battlefield.ru, which is a Russian WWII armor site with lots and lots of nice pictures from the Eastern Front war. Most of it's in English, too, so you don't need to speak Russian to understand it

According to this website: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/gerafv.htm

The caption to the table reads "This table is a list of German AFV available in July 1943, with details of the gun mounted and armour"

The table adds some additional detail, including main gun bore type and calibre, along with some clarifying notes. While there might be some debatable entries in the list, I think it is a good way to narrow down the list of potential vehicles for the Kursk GB. There is a similar table for Soviet AFV. Definitely go to the URL above and check it out. There's also a lot of Unit information on the site as well.

I hope this helps somewhat.


German AFVs

Pz Jg I
Pz II F
Marder II
Pz III J
Pz III J/1
Pz III L
Pz III M
Pz III N
Pz III Flamm
Pz IV D
Pz IV E
Pz IV F
Pz IV F2
Pz IV G
Pz IV H
Pz V D
Pz VI E
Assault Guns/TD:
StuG III B
StuG III E
StuG III F
StuG III F/8
StuG III G
StuH 42
Marder III (t) H
Marder III (t) M
SturmPz IV
Pz Jg III/IV
Pz Jg VI

Thanks for those pics Hermisminiatures, those are some excellent photos.  What book did you get those from?  I need to expand my armor reference library.   

I'm curious about the T-34/anti-aircraft photo.  I'd never heard of them being used that way before (I'm no expert on Russian armor or tactics by the way...  ). 

Was it effective?  Did they use standard HE rounds or ones with delayed fuses or some such thing?  

And back to Bob's question, I think we've seen enough evidence to suggest that you could easily get away with a heavily worn whitewash scheme.  Whatever you decide to do, it's going to look cool, so go with what you want to do, it is your kit after all. 

Dicker Max #1 was destroyed by engine overheating igniting its ready ammo and kaboom!

Dicker Max #2 was sent back to Juterbog for refit and returned to the front in 1942 and is presumed to have been lost at Stalingrad. So, no DM for Kursk I'm afraid.

Hermes,

Some other minor differences from the Ferdie to the Elefant had to do with the track types as well IIRC.

About the whitewashed T-34 issue - here's a picture of one in early spring 1942 - although it looks like there might still be snow on the ground, it's from March at the earliest:

 

Another photo, a rare one showing T-34's prepared to fire as anti-aircraft weapons. This photo is from earlier in 1943 again, as is obvious by how the crew is dressed, so the paint could have worn off in 2 months...

 

Finally, I think your best chance for finding a whitewashed T-34 at Kursk is here:

http://powstanie-warszawskie-1944.ac.pl/aa1/t34_kursk.jpg

Be warned this is a somewhat graphic picture.  The dead Russian (wearing wrapped leggings, so not German) looks like he's been burned. I've seen the white on the tank been explained as some sort of soot related to the fire that burned the soldier, but it has drips and chips in it. It's most definitely paint. The tank has some charring on the front, but no real damage. The soldier's not dressed in winter gear, and there's no snow around the tank (the white stuff in front of it is probably some sort of soot, because it's too fluffy to be snow) it looks like the tank has had straw thrown on it for camouflage, which wouldn't seem very approprite if it was wintertime. Best of all, this photo is reportedly taken by a German photographer the week the Kursk offensive started. I've heard this photo credited such by two different websites, so it could be so. I don't know what the white ares in the background are - they could be water, but I don't think they're snow.

Anyway - do what you want with it - I think you could model a Kursk T-34 with vestiges of whitewash and be accurate (or at least not decisively wrong!) 

You are correct Hermisminiatures, there were a few individual anomolies between them. 

I recall reading somewhere that there were two different sizes of gun shields.  I'll dig out my references and confirm that.

There's also 2 minor, and somewhat optional differences - the tools were arranged differently on the Elefant, and some Ferdinands didn't have the gun mount shield.

I just found that out - not try to prove anybody's wrong

 

 

So, when do we start?

Hermesminiatures wrote:

Just a question - what were the visible differences between the Ferdinand and the Elefant? I know the Ferdinand didn't have the bow MG, had the old fold up commander's hatch rather than the cupola, didn't have zimmerit, and had a different travel lock. Is there anything else? Because if that's it, I'll just swipe the front glacis and cupola from the Dragon Ferdinand and add them to their Premium edition Elefant. That way I won't have to buy a bunch of AM.

Bingo!  That's exactly the difference. 

Hermesminiatures wrote:

Just a question - what were the visible differences between the Ferdinand and the Elefant? I know the Ferdinand didn't have the bow MG, had the old fold up commander's hatch rather than the cupola, didn't have zimmerit, and had a different travel lock. Is there anything else? Because if that's it, I'll just swipe the front glacis and cupola from the Dragon Ferdinand and add them to their Premium edition Elefant. That way I won't have to buy a bunch of AM.

 

I think you have all of it Hermes.

detailfreak wrote:

where/when was the dicker max intro'd.got trumpeters version on the way.or a stug g model.as for the elefant.it could be backdated to a ferdi with a little work.havent started the western group build but would like to join in on this one also.if any one is thinking of a marder 2,the dragon offering is very good except for suspension alignment issues that i noticed.

 

2 Dicker Max were produced in 1941. They were used in Russia by the 3rd Panzer Division. One was destroyed and captured by the Russian, and the other returned in Germany in October 1941. The fate of the later is unknow.

Just a question - what were the visible differences between the Ferdinand and the Elefant? I know the Ferdinand didn't have the bow MG, had the old fold up commander's hatch rather than the cupola, didn't have zimmerit, and had a different travel lock. Is there anything else? Because if that's it, I'll just swipe the front glacis and cupola from the Dragon Ferdinand and add them to their Premium edition Elefant. That way I won't have to buy a bunch of AM.

I would love to join up on this with my Dragon Marder II but we are fixing to be moving into a new house and Im not sure how much modeling time I am going to have. What were the dates on this thing again??

the book 'kursk;by m.k.barbier seems good for unit reference and alot of photos,one of my favs.

where/when was the dicker max intro'd.got trumpeters version on the way.or a stug g model.as for the elefant.it could be backdated to a ferdi with a little work.havent started the western group build but would like to join in on this one also.if any one is thinking of a marder 2,the dragon offering is very good except for suspension alignment issues that i noticed.

On the question of the Marder III M, the first 20 units were shipped from BMM to the depots in May 1943 and the last 39 in June 1944. This coincides with the last 6 Marder III H that were shipped in May 1943 as the production cut over to the M. The Marder III (sdkfz 139) with the 7.62cm (r) gun production ended with the shipment of 50 vehicles in October 1942.

Regarding the units equipped with the Marder, you can determine if the following units were at Kursk...with the markings provided in your kit...

PzJgAbt 559 (independent unit), Marder III H and M  

PzJgAbt 616 (independent unit), Marder III, III H, III M 

PzJgAbt 731 (independent unit), Marder III, III H, III M (only in 1944)

PzJgAbt 744 (independent unit), Marder III M

PzJgAbt 37, 1st PzDiv, Marder III H and M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 49, 4th PzDiv, Marder III H and M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 53, 5th PzDiv, Marder III H and M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 41, 6th PzDiv, Marder III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 42, 7th PzDiv, Marder III, III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 43, 8th PzDiv, Marder III, III H, III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 61, 11th PzDiv, Marder III H, M (Eastern Front, France (1944))

PzJgAbt 33, 15th PzDiv, Marder III (Africa)

PzJgAbt 27, 17th PzDiv, Marder III, III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 19, 19th PzDiv, Marder III, III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 92, 20th PzDiv, Marder III, III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 39, 21st PzDiv, Marder III, III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 1, 1st SS PzDiv LAH, Marder III H (Eastern Front 1942, Italy 1943, France 1944) 

PzJgAbt 2, 2nd SS PzDiv Das Reich, Marder III H (Eastern Front, France)

PzJgAbt 15, 15th InfDiv, Marder III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 16, 16th InfDiv, Marder III H (France)

PzJgAbt 31, 31st InfDiv, Marder III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 34, 34th InfDiv, Marder III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 349, 349th Inf Div, Marder III M (France 1944, Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 3, 3rd PzGrenDiv, Marder III H or M (Italy)

PzJgAbt 10, 10th, PzGrenDiv, Marder III H, III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 228, 16th PzGrenDiv, Marder III H or M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 8, 20th PzGrenDiv, Marder III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 29, 29th PzGrenDiv, Marder III H or M (Sicily, Anzio)

PzJgAbt 60, 60th PzGrenDiv, Marder III H or M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 53, 5th Jager Division, Marder III H or M (Eastern Front)

PaJgAbt 16, 16th VolksGrenDiv, Marder III M (France)

1st SkiJager Div, Marder III M (Eastern Front)

All information derived from "Marder III and Grille" by Vladimir Francev and Charles Kliment...who in turn cite sources ranging from BMM archive records to Jentz. HTH.  

 

Duh. I knew that, I just corrected somebody on it last week.

I don't have the kit yet, so no big deal. I'll just get the Ferdinand instead.

Hermesminiatures wrote:

OH YES!!!!! I'm definitely in on this one - I hope to do the Dragon Premium edition Elefant. I also want to use the four MasterBox eastern front figure sets, and build a diorama with the tank. That might not be done in time...but I should be able to a tank. BTW, the MasterBox figures are VERY well done if anybody's looking for good, animated figures to accompany a Kursk-era vehicle. I mean REALLY good. The weapons and equipment are a little crude but the posing is better than many resin figures.     And yes, Marder III M was not in service until after Kursk, for sure. At Kursk, 'Das Reich' had a Panzerjager regiment with several Marder III ausf N and two Marder II's. I think the other two SS Panzergrenadier divisions would probably have had Panzerjager regiments as well.

Bad news Hermes. The Elefant was the solution to the Ferdinand, which got decimated at Kursk.