Panzer question

Excellent Bill. Good answer, and thank you very much!

Well now you're asking a different question. You have to bear in mind that the F(2) designation was originally applied to existing hull F's that were armed with the longer barrel 7.5cm gun in place of the short-barrel. That was the only modification done to them...otherwise they were straight-up Ausf Fs in every respect.

Ausf Gs on the other hand had many modifications done to them to make them a G vs. an F depending on when they were produced...only a small number of F(2)s were produced over a 2 month period before the Gs became official. After the Gs were official, the F(2)s were redesignated as Gs...so captions can be a little misleading as a result depending.

The key distinctions between a 'true' G and a renamed F(2)  was being fitted with the double-baffle brake instead of the single-baffle on the gun, another was up-armoring either with bolted or welded on plates to the hull, and still another was the deletion of the side vision ports on the turret. The spare wheel storage on the left side fender didn't appear until May '42 so some early G's were produced without that feature.

If all this sounds a little confusing, it's because things are rarely neat and tidy when it comes down to vehicle production in WW2. Even though as modellers we like to have everything squared away into nice categories, it doesn't always quite work out that way. HTH!

Are you 100% sure of that Bill? My reason for asking is there is a photo (which you guys may have discussed before) in the Chamberlain/Doyle Encyclopedia that is referenced as Pz IV G. It has no side vision ports. Were there F(2) tanks w/o the vision ports? I know the book is a little outdated and maybe you know better from other sources. It doesn't matter to me much. I just need to know whether to glue the jerry can or roadwheel rack on the left side. Thanks

You wouldn't see the globular single baffle brake on a G. They were unique to the F(2). HTH!

Another old thread...... Thanks for posting this if you're still here. I needed to ask if it was ok to have the globular muzzle break on an ausf. G. It's an old kit but I'd still like to fall w/i historical parameters.

...I agree with all that has been said so far...Totenkopf had a lot of Mk III's during the time around Kharkov that could be seen in full compliment of markings...here is my model of one such vehicle typical of the period where you can see the white skull:

...during Kursk several pics show the Division with it's temporary markings...my own opinion is that they went straight from Mk III's to to Mk IV G's and H's...3rdd SS was one division that seemed to retain Mk III's longer than many other divisions, particularly SS...I have seen one panther pic from 3rd SS that shows a Panther A with the white skull Divisional marking on right front glacis plate: Squadron's SS Armor in Action on page 60...

thanks a bunch kykeon, i got tank books out the wazoo but nothing really on divisions, only what pics are in the books. as for the divsional markings i have seen pictures of Tiger 1s from 1944 so i would imagine there are a few Panthers and Kings with the same. thanks for the help. like he said any other input is very much welcomed

Ugh......a seemingly easy enough question, with a not so easy answer. Well, here goes....

First off, For the sake of discussion purposes, I don't want to get bogged down in the semantics of what constitutes a Panzer IV F2. There are many highly acclaimed books which make a formal distinction here.....and those that say such nomenclature is no longer valid. Jentz states on page 8 of Osprey's Panzerkampfwagen IV, Ausf G, H and J that: "There is no difference between a Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf F2 and a Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf G - they were simply different names for the same model of Pz.Kpfw. IV".

"The F2 is basically an early G, so to speak. The F2 only existed from March 1942 until July 1942 when all F2's were renamed G's, from then on it was known as a G model. There really is no difference between an F2 and a G, since they are the same tank. The thing is, that there were modifications made during the production run.

The muzzle brakes are NOT how you tell the difference, since the G models had the single chamber muzzle brake until September 1942, when it was replaced by the double chamber muzzle brake. Likewise, the L/43 and L/48 guns are NOT how you tell the difference either, since the G model did not get the L/48 gun until April 1943.

Best way to look at it, is that the F2 and early G's are the same (since the F2 was renamed G anyways), then you have a line of G's with several modifications added, then in May of 1943, the H model comes out.

The Osprey New Vanguard #39, Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. G, H and J, by Tom Jentz and Hilary Doyle, has an excellent explanation of everything, and it is a recent publication, so it is not full of all the old myths, legends and misinformation."

Let's just say we are talking about the first batch of Panzer IVs that featured the long-barreled, 75mm, Kw.K. 40 L/43 gun with the "globular-type" muzzle brake and still retaining the turret vision ports. Is this definitive enough?

Secondly: We know that Totenkopf spent the winter of 1941 encircled in the Demjansk Pocket. It did not breakout until April of 1942. It remained at the front, but was held in reserve until Oct. 1942, when it was withdrawn to France for rest and refit. Most sources state that Totenkopf received it's Panzer Regiment at this time, (Oct-Nov, 1942), however, page 215 of Panzer Truppen, Vol I, states that two light and one medium Panzer companies were created for Totenkopf on June 1st, 1942. Since Totenkopf was not returned for refit until Oct. of 1942, I'm not quite sure how it could have received it's Panzer Regiment any earlier than this date. A division decimated to 20% of it's original strength from months of hard fighting would have little time for training on it's newly formed Panzer Regiment while still engaged in combat at the front.

The Panzer IV "F2" was produced between March-July of 1942. If Totenkopf didn't receive it's Panzer Regiment until Oct-Nov of 1942, one would think all of the "F2s" would have been issued to other units by this date. I don't seem to be able to find any photos of Totenkopf "F2s" either.

Since there has been a considerable amount of mix-up in nomenclature in many books...(is it an Ausf F2 or is it an early G), one can not be certain which variant a particular author is referring to in any given book, since not all authors make the distinction in the name change and date. All we are left with is interpreting the photos.

If anyone wants to add to this mess, feel free......

 

As for divisional symbols on Tiger II and Panthers....By the time these beasts made their debut on the battlefield, the use of divisional symbols had greatly waned. Sure, you can find examples of vehicles still decked-out with a full complement of markings at this time, but as the war dragged on, use of divisional markings fell away. Generally speaking, they would be found on the upper right hand corner of the glacis plate, (as you would face the vehicle) and sometimes the opposite rear corner as well. It is best to consult photos of particular vehicles to determine whether or not they carried these markings at the time.