periscope? gun sight?

Labour In Vain wrote:

Thanks rios and all for a very good thread. redleg12, I never understood what those candy cane poles where used for, big thanks! I Think I am OK with how the optics work thanks to this. My humble question is: Would that Sfl. Z.F. thingy (rios picture) be blackened, interior or exterior colour. rios 3'd picture from above is blackened, the "sfl.z.f.1a from stug III" looks interior colour to me. As allways Boarder

acmodeler - Yeah...did this just a little for 20 years...did it, taught it, commanded it...ect.

rios - glad you understood it, hope it helps. That's what we are here for

manny - yep, it would give you direct and indirect ability

Rounds Complete!! 

thanks guys.

Redleg, your explaination was very professional, and easy to understand for an artillery illiterate like me. I also did some search with info you provided and found this site: http://members.tripod.com/nigelef/fc_laying.htm

And this, a WWI panoramic artillery sight made by C.P. Goerz Berlin. 

If the resemblance between the 2 scopes came from manufacturer's own standards, I would guess the 2 were both made by Goerz. The following paragraph from wiki indicates Goerz didn't exist after 1926 though... Maybe the scope was older than I thought. 

In 1926 the German branch of Goerz was saved from bankruptcy by being merged with ICA, Contessa-Nettel and Ernemann to form Zeiss Ikon. This had major consequences for the company; the Carl Zeiss company held a majority stake in the new company and demanded that the other firms end their lens production. This was the end of the famed Dagor lenses, at least in Europe. An Austrian branch of C. P. Goerz was still active in the 1950s, introducing an astonishing little subminiature reflex camera with 6 element Helgor lens, the Minicord.

I bought the thing. I want to know what it was used on, and build a model to go with it... 

Hmmm...Redleg, sounds like you've done this before .

Rios: Geschutz Richtfernrohr translates to "gunsight". More specifically, I would think it means pericsope, based on the word "rohr":"pipe" in German. That's using my own noggin, and my German is a little rusty, but I think I've at least got it in the ballpark. Doesn't help much, I know. EDIT: Babelfish, which seems fairly accurate, translates "geschuetz richtfernrohr" as " cannon arranging telescope". Now, since I can almost hit a barn with a shotgun, I am probably the least qualified to talk about artillery, so I will just continue on my merry way, translating and re-stating the obvious.

Manny

There will be a test tomorrow!!

Rounds Complete!!

OK...Artillery 101...Here are some simple explanations

An artillery weapon is surveyed into position, ie. the tube is suveyed pointing in a direction you want to fire. When the survey is complete and without moving the tube, the sight is set to a reference setting. For this type of site it would be 2800 mils (6400 mils in a circle). Now with the refernce setting and the tube lined up on the direction to fire reference points are put out so that when you sight through the pantel and you could line up on them. 

Reference Point

The earliest form of aiming point was a pair of aiming posts for each gun, almost in line with one another when viewed through the gun's sight, and placed about 50 meters from the gun. There were at least two ways of using these but the simplest is to aim the sight mid-way between them.

Before the First World War the French introduced the collimateur. During that war the British introduced their first parallescope which was a horizontal mirror placed a few feet from the gun, the layer aimed his sight at its reflection. In the 1950s the parallescope was replaced by the prism parallescope that was more robust and easily positioned. In the 1970s the US introduced a modern version of the French device and called it a collimator. In the same period infra-red beacons had some very limited use.

In some special circumstances, such as when only one round or salvo was going to be fired (eg by nuclear artillery or a multiple rocket launcher), a director or aiming circle about a 100 meters away could be used as an aiming point

The aiming posts are those poles that look like candy cane poles. In WWII they were red & white (later...VN, green and black)

Now with a reference, you could move the tube or the site but if you wanted to get back to the surveyed azimuth of fire, set the site using the lower knob to 2800 and traverse the tube until you center your reference points in the retical of the pantel. The tube is back.

Ballistic calculations to any other target which require you to move left or right of the azimuth of fire calculate the difference in mils. That value is set using the lower knob on the site and then looking through the pantel you traverse the tube until you center it on the reference point. It is now pointing at that target.

Phew...I know that was a lot and I hope it was understandable???

Lastly, there is no reference point on the tube, the pantel is aligned and moves with the tube.

Next...Top knob...The top know allows you to see your reference point in the center of the retical if it is up a hill or down on the ground. Essentially it allows you to make up the difference in elevation from the weapon to the reference point.

It is not used for elevation in direct fire. On the other side of the weapon is the elbow telescope. This is used for sighting elevation and the weapon is elevated from that side.

Do they need a compass...No, once the tube is suveyed into position and the tube aligned on a azimuth of fire, and you have reference points out, as I said above, the traverse to a target is left or right of the surveyed azimuth of fire. This would be calculated and sent to the gun. They would set off the "deflection" on the site and the traverse the tube to the aiming point.

The gunner operates the pantel telescope and traverses the gun. The asst. gunner elevates the tube.

The entire site is about 12 - 15 inches tall. The optics are pointing in about the right direction. From the back of a weapon the site is mounted on the left side. The eyepiece would stick out to the left. Aiming points are to the left front side of the weapon, so at times it could be almost looking over the eyepiece.

OK, I know you are compleatly confused. Hopefully this helps a little.

If no one else has any questions, if you want more information you could either PM me, (I hope the other in this forum don.t mind the long winded explanation), also look on the internet. Use the following searches

• Panoramic Telescope
• Aiming Posts
• Collimater
• Artillery Survey
• FM-6-30
• FM-6-40

I'm here behind the breech block if you need more!!

Rounds Complete!!

Thanks for info redleg. Hope you wouldn't mind elaborating on this bow]

If I understood you correctly, there's a dot on the scope lens that lays onto a reference point on the gun tube when they are aligned? So what is the reference point on the gun like? A painted dot?

Since the top knob tilts the objective lens/mirror, does that mean the scope can be used for elevation calculations in direct fire mode? And could you tell me what this knob/screw was for?

For indirect fire, wouldn't they need a compass? Or do they have a seperate set of equipments for that? Does the person who looks through the panoramic scope also control transverse of the gun? 

Inscripted on the body are "Geschutz-Richtfernrohr (b)" and 2 serial numbers 3181 and 3175. Here's a partial list of german optics but it doesn't seem to be very useful. http://www.europa.com/~telscope/mil%60ger%23.txt

I thought it looked flimsy compared to the scope from stug, the plate behind the top mirror looked thin. Then again, this thing might be a lot bigger than I thought... 

The object lens should be facing the other way right?

As a follow up, here is a site on the US M12 series panoramic telescope. This was used on all US artillery weapons in WWII and Korea. More adavnced panoramic telescopes began to come into the system during VN

http://www.seilerinst.com/mltry/m12a7.asp

Here is a photo of the US M12 pantel

What you may be looking at is the German equal. The photos in place may be on a German SP artillery weapon

Rounds Complete!!

This would apper to be an old style artillery panoramic telecope. This is used to set off deflection (left/right traverse). After a weapon is "laid" (surveyed onto an azmuith of fire) the large rotating scale (with red) would read 2800 mils (if on the azimuth of fire) and looking through the scope you would see a reference point centered in the cross hairs (aiming post or survey scope or later weapons, VN, a collimeter).

If a fire mission came in, the Fire Direction Center would calculate the deflection to the target. The gunner would set this number on the panoramic telescope and then traverse the gun until he centered the reference point in the scope.

The gun is now pointing on the azmuith to the target.

This sight would normaly be on the left side of the weapon if you were in the rear of the weapon.

The small knob on top is for adjusting the scope view for a difference in elevation between the reference point and the gun.

This scope could also be used in direct fire (firing to the front for what you can see). The sight is rotated to be in line with the tube. Then while looking through the site the weapon is traversed onto the target.

Hope this helps. I could go a lot deeper if anyone wants to know??

Rounds Complete!!

Here's a sfl.z.f.1a from stug III. It looked identical to the ones in dragon's kits.

Not the same.