What the ...Is Going On:)

well on the real assembly line here in nearby framingham mass. all the midsize cars from pon. buick and chevy are on the same line one behind the other there hasn't been a difference in any of them in many many yrs

so the model may as well follow the same

I remember even back to (as far as my brain can go for some dealership stuff) 1980 we would have Pontiac motors in the Buicks, even Chevy motors. Once and awhile we'd see a Buick block slip through.

After all it does say "Goodwrench" on the Lumina. That's a GM thing, not just Chevrolet.

But I can feel for you Snoopy... one would think a NASCAR "Stock Car" Lumina would be all Chevy. Shave the "PONTIAC" off the motor, well... if it in deed it is a Chevy motor?? LOL

I remember when pontiac was still in nascar... I believe they used Chevy motors. Weird...

You know, exactly the same thing happens here with our V8 Supercars. A lot of people wouldn't know that the Holdens run Chevrolette engines & the Fords have Windsors. Some of the fans still think the teams ring up the local GM or Ford factories to buy the Aussie built stuff.

If I remember correctly Oldmobile was sued by poeple who found out that they had Chevy engiones in their Olds Cutlasses. GM contended it made no difference but then judge ask, "then why did they pay extra for the Olds V-8 engine". Olds/GM lost the suit and folks got about $1500 each (class action suit).

If you are talking about Ford "Windsor" engines those are Ford engines made at their Windsor, Ontario Canada engine plant. Ford "Cleveland" engines are made at the Ford Cleveland, Ohio USA engine plant. 

There you go. Mind you, with Bill Ford's announcement earlier this week, that might put a dent in everybody's motorsport options/aspirations. They must be in serious trouble to chop that many workers. 

Note, the jobs will be eliminated in the US and Canada for the most part. The plants that will be shut down will also be in the US and Canada. The reductions will be made over a series of years. I suspect that new plants will be built in other countries. I have no trouble with the Japanese or Koreans, or anyone else selling cars in North america. I do streanuously object to the fact that US and Canadian made cars cannot be sold, or even imported, into those other countries in equal numbers.

As for the Japanese cars manufactured in the US this would be OK if the profits made on those cars stayed in the US and was taxed in the US. It is not. So, we have foreign cars being subsedized by the foreign government under selling the North American made cars, and the NA made cars cannot be shipped over seas to compete in their markets, AND all the profits are repatriated and not taxed in the US or Canada (transfer pricing). The US car manufacturer can compete with any other in the world if the playing field is level. Unfortunately it is not.

Lastly, too many North Americans have short memories such as the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March. Wake up Americans (North Americans i.e. USA and Canada). If you do not think this phenomina is goint to affect you as a model builder look inside the kits for the country of manufacture and see Made in China, Korea, and Japan. 

You know, those countries are countries we "trade" with. But like rangerj said, they don't accept too many of our goods back. Trade deficits aren't what really gets me though. What really makes me mad is when American companies outsource to other countries. Whatever happened to loyalty? Patriotism?

American companies have no choice but to outsource so they can compete with our trading "partners" that use cheap labor, little if any regulation for labor safety or polution, and government subsidy. In case you (collective) have not noticed the standard of living in the US and Canada has declined sharply in the last 20 years. The worst is yet to come as China discovers capitalism, one sided as it is for them. Watch what happens to the price of models once the competition is eliminated. 

rangerj wrote:

If you are talking about Ford "Windsor" engines those are Ford engines made at their Windsor, Ontario Canada engine plant. Ford "Cleveland" engines are made at the Ford Cleveland, Ohio USA engine plant.

Windsor is a small block

Cleveland is a big block

Living Legend wrote:

rangerj wrote: If you are talking about Ford "Windsor" engines those are Ford engines made at their Windsor, Ontario Canada engine plant. Ford "Cleveland" engines are made at the Ford Cleveland, Ohio USA engine plant. Windsor is a small block Cleveland is a big block

Actually both answers are wrong! Well, not really wrong, let's call them mis-informed!

Windsor motors were developed in the Ontario plant but not all Windsor motors were produced there. All Clevelands were both developed and built in Cleveland, and were built for only four years.

The 351 Windsor is certainly a small block and one based on the 289/302 family of motors. It has 5 bolt straight valve covers, routes water through the intake manifold and uses regular spark plugs. The timing chain is in the block and the valves and heads are smaller. It also had thin wall end caps limiting the horsepower the engine could make. The oiling system was one of the best available in a production engine.

The 351 Cleveland is called a big small block (those clever Ford marketers!) and comes from the 355 family of motors. It has 8 bolt two plane valve covers, doesn't route water through the intake, uses smaller 14mm spark plugs, has a separate housing for the timing chain and some of the best heads to come out of Detroit (well, Cleveland!) with huge valves. It was those heads and valves that made the Cleveland a more powerful engine than the Windsor, which was no slouch either. This engine came with thicker and larger end caps allowing engine tuners to drill them out for a 4 bolt main, thereby allowing greater compression without blowing out the rods. The oiling system sucked and the engine was often starved of oil at higher revs, which goes to explain the short build life.

To really confuse things the Boss 302 Windsor used the heads from the 351 Cleveland to increase breathing and horsepower.

Bgrigg wrote:

Living Legend wrote:  rangerj wrote: If you are talking about Ford "Windsor" engines those are Ford engines made at their Windsor, Ontario Canada engine plant. Ford "Cleveland" engines are made at the Ford Cleveland, Ohio USA engine plant. Windsor is a small block Cleveland is a big block Actually both answers are wrong! Well, not really wrong, let's call them mis-informed! Windsor motors were developed in the Ontario plant but not all Windsor motors were produced there. All Clevelands were both developed and built in Cleveland, and were built for only four years. The 351 Windsor is certainly a small block and one based on the 289/302 family of motors. It has 5 bolt straight valve covers, routes water through the intake manifold and uses regular spark plugs. The timing chain is in the block and the valves and heads are smaller. It also had thin wall end caps limiting the horsepower the engine could make. The oiling system was one of the best available in a production engine. The 351 Cleveland is called a big small block (those clever Ford marketers!) and comes from the 355 family of motors. It has 8 bolt two plane valve covers, doesn't route water through the intake, uses smaller 14mm spark plugs, has a separate housing for the timing chain and some of the best heads to come out of Detroit (well, Cleveland!) with huge valves. It was those heads and valves that made the Cleveland a more powerful engine than the Windsor, which was no slouch either. This engine came with thicker and larger end caps allowing engine tuners to drill them out for a 4 bolt main, thereby allowing greater compression without blowing out the rods. The oiling system sucked and the engine was often starved of oil at higher revs, which goes to explain the short build life. To really confuse things the Boss 302 Windsor used the heads from the 351 Cleveland to increase breathing and horsepower.

  

 

DURR wrote:

Bgrigg wrote:  Living Legend wrote:  rangerj wrote: If you are talking about Ford "Windsor" engines those are Ford engines made at their Windsor, Ontario Canada engine plant. Ford "Cleveland" engines are made at the Ford Cleveland, Ohio USA engine plant. Windsor is a small block Cleveland is a big block Actually both answers are wrong! Well, not really wrong, let's call them mis-informed! Windsor motors were developed in the Ontario plant but not all Windsor motors were produced there. All Clevelands were both developed and built in Cleveland, and were built for only four years. The 351 Windsor is certainly a small block and one based on the 289/302 family of motors. It has 5 bolt straight valve covers, routes water through the intake manifold and uses regular spark plugs. The timing chain is in the block and the valves and heads are smaller. It also had thin wall end caps limiting the horsepower the engine could make. The oiling system was one of the best available in a production engine. The 351 Cleveland is called a big small block (those clever Ford marketers!) and comes from the 355 family of motors. It has 8 bolt two plane valve covers, doesn't route water through the intake, uses smaller 14mm spark plugs, has a separate housing for the timing chain and some of the best heads to come out of Detroit (well, Cleveland!) with huge valves. It was those heads and valves that made the Cleveland a more powerful engine than the Windsor, which was no slouch either. This engine came with thicker and larger end caps allowing engine tuners to drill them out for a 4 bolt main, thereby allowing greater compression without blowing out the rods. The oiling system sucked and the engine was often starved of oil at higher revs, which goes to explain the short build life. To really confuse things the Boss 302 Windsor used the heads from the 351 Cleveland to increase breathing and horsepower.

Back to the original subject. I know some of (if not all) the Lumina kit have had those valve covers for several years. I have Lumina kits from way back that have the Pontiac valve covers in the kit.

Keith

Yep, know what you're saying rangerj. Our situation is the same but different here in Australia. We mine half a country's worth of coke & iron ore, drop it all into a ship on it's way to China, Korea & Japan at a ridiculously crazy price, only for them to turn it into reasonable quality steel which they send back to us, for our car-makers to build cars to hopefully compete with theirs, which were made from our steel as well. It just doesn't make sense.