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A very bad trend.

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  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Southampton England
A very bad trend.
Posted by Viper Has The Lead on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:21 PM
Good day Auto people,
                               Received an e-mail from a nice site I pop into for some bit's n bobs. Am an aero modeller by calling Smile [:)] Even though this doesn't affect me directly, I think it's a sad and shameful trend. The e-mail went as follow.
>
Today we received a letter from the lawyers representing "Philip Morris USA" demanding all products bearing the Marlboro trademark be withdrawn from sale. Unfortunately I can't afford/don't need the hastle fighting this etc. I believe i'm not the only model shop who has received this letter.
>
You'd think they'd lap up all the free advertising for their product around various home wouldn't you ?  Lawyers, go figure Disapprove [V]  As for Phillp Morris, well make up your own minds.
While I'm here, we used to have AMT and Jo-Han kits over here in the UK when I was a bright young thing, are they still going ?
Best wishes to you all.
Mick C.
"All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR.2 simply got the first three right." Sir Sydney Camm
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:47 PM

Well you know model railroad manufacturers went through this a couple of years ago with the Union Pacific Railroad. The railroads contention was that they had to protect their trademark because we stupid modelers buying models with their mark on it would be misled to believe that it was sold by the railroad, thereby exposing the railroad to claims of defective merchandise. This went on to apply to calendars as well, and potentially hats, mugs and all the other stuff railheads seem to need to accumulate.

But the real capper was that having gobbled up seemingly half of all the railroads in the United States, the railroad sought to protect the logos of all of those historic fallen flags as well.

I believe that the settlement was to to require one perpetual license from each manufacturer, rather than the sought after royalties.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:50 PM

This is a very stupid trend. If I was the store owner, I would send back the letter stating that the manufacturer is the person they should be harassing and go pound sand (actually I'm saying something else. Use your imagination!).

Then I would contact all the race teams that fly their logo and tell 'em to also go pound sand, and boycott any event with Phillip Morris sponsership. See how they like that.

Personally I think everyone everywhere should ban Phillip Morris products. They can smoke their own cigarettes!

Fricking MBA's and Lawyers are the death of our society.

Remember Paul Simon's song "Kodachrome"? Kodak was actually going to sue him for copyright infringement. Their lawyers contact Nikon to see if they wanted in on the action and were told to go away. Sales of Nikons were going through the roof, and all that free publicity was too good to be true. When Marketing heard about the law suit they flipped out. Sale of Kodachrome were also going through the roof. End of lawsuit.

That was back before the bean counters killed innovation, and reason could still win. Today, we are all at the mercy of the briefcase toting idiots. May God have mercy on our souls. 

Hey, let's all write letters to Phillip Morris and let them know how we feel. No emails, let them pay someone to open the letters up first!

 

Philip Morris USA
Consumer Response Center
P.O. Box 26603
Richmond, Virginia 23261

Philip Morris International

Philip Morris International
Consumer Service
Case Postale 1171
1001 Lausanne
Switzerland

While we're at it, let's send NASCAR a letter too, telling them that we won't watch their stupid race until Marlboro is banned from the racetracks!

Customer.Support@nascar.cust-serv.com 

Oh, stuff like this gets me so angry! Censored [censored] And I don't even watch or build NASCAR stuff, nor do I purchase diecasts. Certainly not with Phillip bloody Morris crap all over it. Not now, not ever. Especially not after this!

So long folks!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Northeast WA State
Posted by armornut on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:26 PM

 ease up on the caffine there brgrigg,i couldn't agree with you more seems that every where ya look there is some one looking back saying thats mine and you can't use it or its likenss or i'll sue the pants off you and your grndkids.if i'm tracking with the original post that fella is a shop owner who cant sell anything with PM/usa on it? horsepuckey,the company never should have sold the rights to use the name!

i,may shoot ya an e-mail in a day or two just to say howdy on the private line  lol.

we're modelers it's what we do

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Kansas city
Posted by kcmat on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:01 PM

I may be reading it the wrong way but I figured it part of the whole "we know whats better for you than you do" poeple that get things banned they dont like. EI smoking. In their minds a model with the logo of a cigeret or beer or anything else is "forcing" an image into their childs mind. Unlike the TV and video games they sit their children in front of to babysit while they go to more book burning ralleys.

Haha sorry to get upset. As a "trying to quit" smoker I still feel wether I smoke or not it's a persons right to do so and others shouldn't force a company into ruin because they dont like their product. Wait till some kid eats enough styrene to kill a small goat and then they'll be wich hunting these forums lol

http://www.myspace.com/madmat77
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:13 PM
 armornut wrote:

 ease up on the caffine there brgrigg,i couldn't agree with you more seems that every where ya look there is some one looking back saying thats mine and you can't use it or its likenss or i'll sue the pants off you and your grndkids.if i'm tracking with the original post that fella is a shop owner who cant sell anything with PM/usa on it? horsepuckey,the company never should have sold the rights to use the name!

i,may shoot ya an e-mail in a day or two just to say howdy on the private line  lol.

Actually, I'm down to only one cup per day. I used to be a lot worse! Propeller [8-]

So long folks!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:33 PM

kcmat - Your opinion is appreciated but in this case it is not the PC police. In fact is is the cigarette company itself seeking to collect royalties for the use of their brand. It is naked corporate greed looking for ways to make money off of people, as if they didn't have enough already earned in the most gross manner possible, and it's one more reason to quit. In the case with which I am familiar, after having bought/ put out of business all kinds of previous railroads, AND having been subsidised for much of its existence by taxpayers, the Union Pacific Railroad sought to collect royalties on the order of up to $ 5.00 or so per model displaying not only the UP, but for example the Rio Grande which is a much storied and very historic line that operated in more than one country.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Kansas city
Posted by kcmat on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:52 PM

Ahhh OK I follow ya now. Ya thats just their greed ruining it for us then.

Never knew that about the RRs. I haven't messed model RR since I was a kid playin with my dad's. I sometimes think of setting up another small set. I'd like to do Rock Island as my grandpa worked for em. This one of the ones you can't get anymore?

http://www.myspace.com/madmat77
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:02 AM

Ah my friend now you are talking. There is no better reason to have a train model than if it has a personal tie. And you can find steam stuff too. I am a Southern Pacific fan as I grew up near the tracks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ho-Life-Like-Rock-Island-set-ready-to-run_W0QQitemZ260152808583QQihZ016QQcategoryZ19135QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Cut and paste in Google and it'll get you there. I have no connection with that auction, just a thought.

KC is the train capital of, well, Missouri but there is so much railroad history there. I'll guess your Gpa was quite a serious guy who worked an honest day, and I'm not patronizing anyone here but railroaders are a solid bunch.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:29 AM

Apparently the Phillip Morris email is a hoax, and I fell for it big time. My only defense is that this is just the sort of thing I expect companies to do, and it sounded so believable.

I bet those Nigerian guys are never going to send me those millions! Big Smile [:D]

So long folks!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Northeast WA State
Posted by armornut on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:21 PM
 now i'm tracking with the jist of the thread and i still agree,kinda sneeky to allow a company to use its logo for a fee i'm sure then go back and charge again for every product its used on nonsense,pure nonsense  "greed"

we're modelers it's what we do

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: White Mountains, NH
Posted by jhande on Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:10 PM
 Bgrigg wrote:

Apparently the Phillip Morris email is a hoax, and I fell for it big time. My only defense is that this is just the sort of thing I expect companies to do, and it sounded so believable.

I bet those Nigerian guys are never going to send me those millions! Big Smile [:D]

Don't you just love those hoaxes...?  Evil [}:)]

I'm working on putting together an online hobby shop and visit the support forum often. There is always talk about - "I just received a letter or email from such and such lawyer telling me I can't sell such a product and I'm going to be sued for said amout of dollars".

First off in this instance... the model manufacturer purchased the licensing allowing the use of the Marlboro logo. The individual hobby shops would not and can not be held liable. Can the modeler be sued because he applied the decals? Hmmm.... Propeller [8-]

The law suit would have to be against the manufacturer. If the manufacturer is no longer in business, next would be the distributor.
The first course of action would be to remove the said items from circulation, not compensation in royalties. That is a whole other issue involving larger corporations (distributors and manufacturers) not nickel and dime'ing small hobby shops.

All I have to say, if I got it from my distributor I'm going to sell it. They can try to stop me all they want!  Tongue [:P]

One cup! Good for you Bill Thumbs Up [tup]

By the way, let me know if you get those millions.
I've been waiting on mine from some widow in the UK for 2 years now.  Disapprove [V]

-- Jim --
"Put the pedal down & shake the ground!"

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Portland, Oregon
Posted by fantacmet on Monday, September 3, 2007 6:41 AM

Why take free advertising when you can charge people to advertise for you?  It's double income.  VArious companies say charging for this or that is to cover costs, but it reality it is just another source of revenue, to line the already green pockets of those in command.  Essentially this is going to make each and every hobby that pops up available only to the well to do, because nobody else can afford it.  It is happening to the model building hobby as well.  Has been for years.  Only now are we actually starting to see it accelerate to the point that soon(within 5 years or so) probably nearly half of model builders will be quitting the hobby, and very few new people will be getting into it.  This is typical of greed, jump in realize you can make some money, milk it for all you can until your greed entirely destroys it, cloe it down, and move on to the next.  These type of greedy corporate gluttons, don't understand the idea of long term steady income, or word of mouth advertising, or free publicity, or getting repeat business by being reasonable, and kind(they would rather force you into paying their prices), they are not concerned if everyone can afford it.  As long as there is a good portion who can afford it for a short time, thats what matters.  These people think in quarters, and don't even understand the concept of lets lose 20 thuosand this quarter and we will get 200 thousand profit for each quarter thereafter, when we can get 200 thuosand this quarter, half that the quarter after and half the quarter after until we've exhausted it.  Sorry for the long post, but there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

Something in the copyright laws called FAIR USE!  Fair Use has even been extended to the DMCA.  While this won't allow people to make money, it will allow certain retailers and aftermarket to offer something up for free, and bring repeat business to them, and more awareness of their lines.  You can take the graphics or whatever, and put them up on your site free of charge.  If a company see's their image on your site, and you are saying, this image belongs to such and such a company and is sued here under fair use, they can't make you take it down.  Sure you will get all kinds of threats from their lawyers but they are empty.  Fair use ensures this.  Make it clear that you are not misrepresenting yourself as beiing in ANY kind of relationship or endorsement of the product or company displayed.  You can even offer instructions on how to print them out and ue them for your models.  They cannot force you to get licensing and charge for decals or whatever.  The use and printing of these items for our hobby, is for personal and historical use, and fall under the Fair Use Rights of United States Copyright laws.  ALL companies threatan to sue when thigns are under fair use, and none of them are retarded enough to waste the money by going to court to have a judge show them the copyright laws and throw it out of court and fine them for wasting the courts time.  It is worth it, to pay the lawyer 500 bucks a letter to make threats though, as majority of threataned people will comply.  So if they say, hey you can't produce this product anymore unless you pay us royalties, offer the graphics available to be saved along with instructions on how to properly print available for free, and make money from your other products.  Remember there is protection from unbridled greed.  You are doing nothing more then offering the source free of charge, and instructions on how to make scale reproductions for personal use.  If y'all want someone else to do it first, as a test subject, I am more then willing to be the one who does it.  I have a model building site already that is hardly ever touched, and has virtually no visitors.  Set it up, and I'll put it right on up on the site.  Spread the word a little bit, I'll put a page counter up, and I'll even get the information for you, so you can call PM and tell them what I am doing and where.  I would absolutely welcome sticking it to these greedy companies.  I am more then willing to do this, if nobody else will step up to the plate first.  To top it off, I couldn't afford a lawsuit for even 100 bucks.  I deliver pizza, and I have a wife and one child with another child on the way.  I am one of the guys who got nailed by Metallica for downloading MP3's on Napster.  Simple flaw with their logic is they assumed it was all theft.  Under standard RIAA licensing agreements, you can listen to music you have purchase in whatever form you see fit.  I had purchased every album multiple times, and they had all been destroyed or stolen.  So I downloaded them.  RIAA doesn't even like to play by their own terms.  I got sent numerous threataning letters, iincluding stating that if the original is lost or stolen, then so is the license, and that you do not have the right to listen to your legal music in whatever form you purchased(although it's right there on their website in their own language for all to see).  I quoted their own agreements, and I never heard from them again.  Too many people are terrified of copyright violation, not knowing what they can and can't do and taknig the word of the big corporations for it.  After reviewing a fair use case such as I propose there isn't a single court that would even accept the case.  I VOLUNTEER FOR THIS ONE!

 

Michael

    

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Portland, Oregon
Posted by fantacmet on Monday, September 3, 2007 6:47 AM
Bgrigg for what it's worth don't bother wriitng to nascar any e-mail, paper letter, or calling them up.  I have dealt with them before, and was trying to do so in a positive way, and I was told point blank in no uncertain terms, they do not bother listening to people like me.  They don;t listen to the words of fans, the only thing from fans they care about is the money.  The only people they talk to are important people, and people like and the fans are not important.  To be important you have to have a few million bucks and somehow have to be related to something within nascar, and beyond that tyo go away, and no further communication would ever come from them, that all e-mails from my e-mail address would be automatically returned with a rejected code from the server, that all envelopes with my return address would be returned unopened, and that any telephone calls I would be hung up on.  The one and only thing I was trying to do was offer condolences to Dale Earnhardt's family for their loss.  This is the kind of treatment I got from them.  Nascar will do as they please, and anyone who says otherwise, tough luck, as you can be replaced.

    

  • Member since
    October 2005
Posted by gulfstreamV on Saturday, September 8, 2007 8:30 PM
 Bgrigg wrote:

This is a very stupid trend. If I was the store owner, I would send back the letter stating that the manufacturer is the person they should be harassing and go pound sand (actually I'm saying something else. Use your imagination!).

Then I would contact all the race teams that fly their logo and tell 'em to also go pound sand, and boycott any event with Phillip Morris sponsership. See how they like that.

Personally I think everyone everywhere should ban Phillip Morris products. They can smoke their own cigarettes!

Fricking MBA's and Lawyers are the death of our society.

.

That was back before the bean counters killed innovation, and reason could still win. Today, we are all at the mercy of the briefcase toting idiots. May God have mercy on our souls. 

Hey, let's all write letters to Phillip Morris and let them know how we feel. No emails, let them pay someone to open the letters up first!

 

Philip Morris USA
Consumer Response Center
P.O. Box 26603
Richmond, Virginia 23261

Philip Morris International

Philip Morris International
Consumer Service
Case Postale 1171
1001 Lausanne
Switzerland

While we're at it, let's send NASCAR a letter too, telling them that we won't watch their stupid race until Marlboro is banned from the racetracks!

Customer.Support@nascar.cust-serv.com 

Oh, stuff like this gets me so angry! Censored [censored] And I don't even watch or build NASCAR stuff, nor do I purchase diecasts. Certainly not with Phillip bloody Morris crap all over it. Not now, not ever. Especially not after this!

YEAH! Tell them that it should of never been called the Marlboro Cup! (The NHRA Marlboro Finals also!)Phillip Morris wasted their money sponsoring that series for 37 years. Joe Camel. What a stupid motor sport, driving around in circles(sometimes on a road course, or a drag strip!) to sellout crowds! BAN Marlboro!, from all the race tracks in the world! (EXCEPT TEAMS FERRARI, DUCATI & PENSKE, Ferrari will separate from Phillip Morris after the 2011 season, and being the last tobacco sponsored team in F1 as of this season). VRiggs your knowledge on motor sports is obviously limited, Tobacco sponsorship has been on the decline and or legislated out of participation for at least the past 5-7 years. I used to think hockey was a dumb sport, until a neighbor who used to play for the Oilers would give us his season tickets to games he could not attend. In person it's a much better game than on TV. Of course you have to get your rear off the chair, and your face in the air to go see either one. NASA, NASCAR, what's next M.L.B.? Whistling [:-^] Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D] Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]

Stay XX Thirsty, My Fellow Modelers.
  • Member since
    October 2005
Posted by gulfstreamV on Saturday, September 8, 2007 11:59 PM
 fantacmet wrote:

Why take free advertising when you can charge people to advertise for you?  It's double income.  VArious companies say charging for this or that is to cover costs, but it reality it is just another source of revenue, to line the already green pockets of those in command.  Essentially this is going to make each and every hobby that pops up available only to the well to do, because nobody else can afford it.  It is happening to the model building hobby as well.  Has been for years.  Only now are we actually starting to see it accelerate to the point that soon(within 5 years or so) probably nearly half of model builders will be quitting the hobby, and very few new people will be getting into it.  This is typical of greed, jump in realize you can make some money, milk it for all you can until your greed entirely destroys it, cloe it down, and move on to the next.  These type of greedy corporate gluttons, don't understand the idea of long term steady income, or word of mouth advertising, or free publicity, or getting repeat business by being reasonable, and kind(they would rather force you into paying their prices), they are not concerned if everyone can afford it.  As long as there is a good portion who can afford it for a short time, thats what matters.  These people think in quarters, and don't even understand the concept of lets lose 20 thuosand this quarter and we will get 200 thousand profit for each quarter thereafter, when we can get 200 thuosand this quarter, half that the quarter after and half the quarter after until we've exhausted it.  Sorry for the long post, but there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

Something in the copyright laws called FAIR USE!  Fair Use has even been extended to the DMCA.  While this won't allow people to make money, it will allow certain retailers and aftermarket to offer something up for free, and bring repeat business to them, and more awareness of their lines.  You can take the graphics or whatever, and put them up on your site free of charge.  If a company see's their image on your site, and you are saying, this image belongs to such and such a company and is sued here under fair use, they can't make you take it down.  Sure you will get all kinds of threats from their lawyers but they are empty.  Fair use ensures this.  Make it clear that you are not misrepresenting yourself as beiing in ANY kind of relationship or endorsement of the product or company displayed.  You can even offer instructions on how to print them out and ue them for your models.  They cannot force you to get licensing and charge for decals or whatever.  The use and printing of these items for our hobby, is for personal and historical use, and fall under the Fair Use Rights of United States Copyright laws.  ALL companies threatan to sue when thigns are under fair use, and none of them are retarded enough to waste the money by going to court to have a judge show them the copyright laws and throw it out of court and fine them for wasting the courts time.  It is worth it, to pay the lawyer 500 bucks a letter to make threats though, as majority of threataned people will comply.  So if they say, hey you can't produce this product anymore unless you pay us royalties, offer the graphics available to be saved along with instructions on how to properly print available for free, and make money from your other products.  Remember there is protection from unbridled greed.  You are doing nothing more then offering the source free of charge, and instructions on how to make scale reproductions for personal use.  If y'all want someone else to do it first, as a test subject, I am more then willing to be the one who does it.  I have a model building site already that is hardly ever touched, and has virtually no visitors.  Set it up, and I'll put it right on up on the site.  Spread the word a little bit, I'll put a page counter up, and I'll even get the information for you, so you can call PM and tell them what I am doing and where.  I would absolutely welcome sticking it to these greedy companies.  I am more then willing to do this, if nobody else will step up to the plate first.  To top it off, I couldn't afford a lawsuit for even 100 bucks.  I deliver pizza, and I have a wife and one child with another child on the way.  I am one of the guys who got nailed by Metallica for downloading MP3's on Napster.  Simple flaw with their logic is they assumed it was all theft.  Under standard RIAA licensing agreements, you can listen to music you have purchase in whatever form you see fit.  I had purchased every album multiple times, and they had all been destroyed or stolen.  So I downloaded them.  RIAA doesn't even like to play by their own terms.  I got sent numerous threataning letters, iincluding stating that if the original is lost or stolen, then so is the license, and that you do not have the right to listen to your legal music in whatever form you purchased(although it's right there on their website in their own language for all to see).  I quoted their own agreements, and I never heard from them again.  Too many people are terrified of copyright violation, not knowing what they can and can't do and taknig the word of the big corporations for it.  After reviewing a fair use case such as I propose there isn't a single court that would even accept the case.  I VOLUNTEER FOR THIS ONE!

 

Michael

  I still like atteneding motor sports events. By  the way I'll put your name in a class action suit that is in te develpment stage?
Stay XX Thirsty, My Fellow Modelers.
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Paarl, South Africa
Posted by SeaBee on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:22 AM

Make no mistake, I am not a smoker and will never be pro smoking. Maybe I missed something... but where did the "corporate greed" and all that stuff come into play?

As far as I can tell, these guys aren't adding a fee to the sale of branded merchandise, they are completely banning the sale the products to the best of their ability. All that because of anti-tobacco advertising legislation. Whether they actually can sue "Joe's shop" in the States/UK/Rest of EU for selling a product not manufactured under EU rules is not within my knowledge. Esp if the product is not being produced as a direct replica.

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