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Using Balsa for static models

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  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Bedfordshire, England
Using Balsa for static models
Posted by ollie on Wednesday, May 7, 2008 7:19 PM

I am looking at making my first scratch built model soon (it will be the Tougan Gannet) and i am not sure what i can use to seal the balsa to paint it. My thought was to use waterd down PVA but i am not sure if there is a better way. Any tips here would be apreciated.

 

I have used balsa before in flying models so i will enjoy the challenge of making static models. 

www.overthefencephotography.co.uk - aircraft photos.
  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Los Angeles
Posted by dostacos on Wednesday, May 7, 2008 8:48 PM
model shops {R/C type} should have sanding sealer to seal the grain of the wood. You could also get some generic primer that is good for wood or metal or plastic
Dan support your 2nd amendment rights to keep and arm bears!
  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Bedfordshire, England
Posted by ollie on Thursday, May 8, 2008 8:54 AM
I know the stuff you mean but it does seem rather expensive and i was just wondering if there was another way.
www.overthefencephotography.co.uk - aircraft photos.
  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: The Bluegrass State
Posted by EasyMike on Thursday, May 8, 2008 9:07 AM

 ollie wrote:
...My thought was to use waterd down PVA but i am not sure if there is a better way....

 

That'll work.  All you need is something to seal the grain.  Old airplane dope did the same thing.  Sanding sealer at a home repair place (Lowe's, Home Depot, etc., or a hardware store) would probably be cheaper than the same product in a hobby shop.

 

Smile [:)]

  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Bedfordshire, England
Posted by ollie on Thursday, May 8, 2008 9:41 AM
Doh how did i forget good old dope. Shame the stuff these days can be so hard to get hold of. I dont use the stuff on my flying models but i would consider it on static models.
www.overthefencephotography.co.uk - aircraft photos.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, May 8, 2008 10:02 AM

I'll take the liberty of raising a question.  I'm asking it from the standpoint of a ship modeler, but I think it's just as relevant in any other form of static scale modeling.  Why balsa?

Balsa wood became the most common material stocked by hobby shops, probably as long ago as the 1920s or 1930s, largely because the most popular hobby in those days was flying aircraft models.  Balsa has one great virtue for that particular form of modeling:  it's extremely light in weight relative to its strength.  (And the strength of balsa really is remarkable.  Some years ago I helped my stepdaughter with a school science competition that involved building a foot-tall "tower" out of balsa strips no bigger than 3/32" square.  The towers in the competition were weighed, and then subjected to heavy weights until they collapsed.  The winner would be the one with the best ratio between its own weight and the amount of weight it withstood before getting crushed.  The one my stepdaughter and I built weighed less than four ounces; the judges gave up trying to crush it when it withstood thirty pounds.)  By the time I started getting interested in modeling, in the mid-1950s, balsa was the only wood routinely stocked in a variety of sizes and shapes by most hobby shops.

But the stuff has almost no other virtues.  It's soft (to the point of crushing when attacked with any sort of cutting tool that's not really sharp and disintegrating under pressure of sandpaper), has a horribly coarse grain, and soaks up finishing materials like a sponge.  And in a non-flying model the weight factor is irrelevant.  I think it's safe to say that most serious, experienced scale ship modelers reject balsa completely.  Model railroaders also rarely, if ever, use it any more.

I'm frequently impressed - even amazed - at the things flying model aircraft enthusiasts are able to do with balsa; they've demonstrated that, with techniques undoubtedly refined by years of experience, the stuff can be shaped and finished with remarkable precision.  But I have to wonder:  why use it in a static model?

Good hobby shops and mail order suppliers (especially those that cater to the model railroad trade) carry basswood in just as many sizes and shapes as balsa - and the price difference is minimal.  (Some dealers in fact sell some basswood pieces for lower prices than balsa of the same size and shape.  I don't know why.)  Basswood is a good deal harder than balsa, has a fine, straight grain, and is much, much easier to finish.  It seems to be the most common wood among railroad modelers these days, and is routinely supplied in the better American ship model kits.  (Scratchbuilders in the ship modeling world tend toward genuine hardwoods, such as box, pear, holly, and cherry - largely because that kind of model frequently involves stained or clear-finished parts.  The fine grain of those woods can actually be made to look like "miniaturized" oak or pine with minimal difficulty.)  Beginners often get the notion that soft woods are easier to carve than hard ones.  It takes just a little experience to find out that - at least when we're talking about balsa - the opposite is the case.  Basswood is far more forgiving of mistakes and inexperience than balsa.

The foregoing, I should mention, is based on my almost-exclusive experience with American hobby shops.  I have the impression that basswood is not as common in England.  (American and British woodworkers sometimes use different words for the same wood.  I think I recall reading that some British stockists refer to basswood as tulip.)  I believe British hobby shops routinely stock limewood for about the same purposes as American ones stock bass.  I've worked with a few pieces of lime; the stuff I had was quite nice, though a little "stringier" than the basswood I'm used to.  (That sort of thing can vary a great deal from piece to piece.  I have no idea how typical the lime I had was.)  Limewood gets mentioned all the time in British articles and books on ship modeling; I don't know what British railroad modelers use.

I'm certainly not qualified to pass judgment on any modeler's choice of material; for most of us it's a hobby, and how we do it is nobody else's business.  But I do suggest that anybody who hasn't tried working with a harder wood than balsa give bass or lime a try.  I've never met anybody who, having switched from balsa to bass or lime, switched back again.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Weymouth, Dorset, UK
Posted by chris hall on Thursday, May 8, 2008 11:00 AM
 ollie wrote:

I am looking at making my first scratch built model soon (it will be the Tougan Gannet) and i am not sure what i can use to seal the balsa to paint it. My thought was to use waterd down PVA but i am not sure if there is a better way. Any tips here would be apreciated.

 

I have used balsa before in flying models so i will enjoy the challenge of making static models. 

In the old days (1960s and early 70s) Balsa wood used to be the standard material for making large parts for conversions. There were hundreds of such articles published in Airfix Magazine. to seal the wood, they used to use a mixture of talcum powder and dope. I'd imagine that you applied it with a flat brush, and maybe sanded it smooth before painting.

But I'd suggest using a harder wood, too. Much easier to work with, if you're tring to produce fine detail and accurate shapes. Still needs sealing, though.

And yes, over here we do call  Baswood Tulip wood. Most LHSs, though, tend only to stock balsa. For other woods, you need to seek out art & craft shops, or shops wich specialise in ship modelling, or dolls' housesBlush [:I]

Cheers,

Chris.

Cute and cuddly, boys, cute and cuddly!
  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Bedfordshire, England
Posted by ollie on Thursday, May 8, 2008 11:05 AM

Ive never seen Basswood in good sizes for scratch building for sale over here. I enjoy the soft qualities of Balsa making it easy to shape and also it is a familiar material having built flying models for years.

I dont know about cost of Basswood compared to Balsa here but balsa is cheap enough.

www.overthefencephotography.co.uk - aircraft photos.
  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: The Bluegrass State
Posted by EasyMike on Thursday, May 8, 2008 3:02 PM

 ollie wrote:
...Doh how did i forget good old dope....

 Don't look now, but I've still got about half of bottle of the old Pactra clear dope.  Price sticker on it reads 98 cents.

 

Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Bedfordshire, England
Posted by ollie on Thursday, May 8, 2008 3:27 PM
Im sure we still have got a few tins of it out in the shed and one out in the conservatory so i guess i could use them up first.
www.overthefencephotography.co.uk - aircraft photos.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Lyons Colorado, USA
Posted by Ray Marotta on Friday, May 9, 2008 7:34 AM

An old modeling trick from the '50's to get a glass smooth finish with no grain showing

was to mix talcum powder with clear dope.  It's just homemade sanding sealer.

Baking soda would probably work as well.

Ray

 ]

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Friday, May 9, 2008 7:39 AM

I used a 3 parts water to 1 part white glue mix to seal this wheelbarrow.  Takes the paint well and does'nt 'lose' much detail in the process.

 

razorboy

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Third rock from the sun.
Posted by Woody on Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:21 AM
I use thin CA to seal my work in balsa. It seals wonderfully and hardens the surface to a styrene like hardness. Balsa sealed and hardened like this can then be further shaped to a very thin edge.

" I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way." --John Paul Jones
  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Neenah, WI
Posted by HawkeyeHobbies on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:45 PM

Just a reminder...basswood will shrink with age, especially if it isn't sealed well.

Also, be sure to take a peek at the authors origin (if provided) before recommending a resource to locate supplies or specific products. Kind of hard to find a Lowes or Home Depot if you live out side of the US and not all brands/products are available everywhere. Some countries have very strict regulations governing importation and sales of certain goods and products.

Also, though we all converse in English on this forum, it still has meanings and translation issues from different soils one is standing on...isn't this language grand!

Time to pop the bonnet to check the oil. Anyone got a three quarter spanner? What's under the hood...a daffy driver who drives on the wrong side of the road. I think you'll find that spanner in the boot.


 

 

 

Gerald "Hawkeye" Voigt

http://hawkeyes-squawkbox.com/

 

 

"Its not the workbench that makes the model, it is the modeler at the workbench."

  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by solid on Tuesday, July 1, 2008 3:45 PM

I have been scratchbuilding for 45 years and Balsa wood is the worst kind of wood for making models. Use a hardwood like white pine or mahogany.

If you "must" use balsa, go to a harwarestore and buy some "transparent" wood spray sealer to seal the wood forget dope that was used 50 years ago because there was nothing else. Balsa was used in solids after WW2 due to the fact there was an overwelming stock of it all over  and was cheaper than trip to hell.....Good luck with your scratchbuilding.

Cheers

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 4, 2008 10:42 AM

In response to the post from HawkeyeHobbies - Virtually all woods shrink and expand in response to changes in the environment.  The degree of expansion and contraction varies from species to species.  Basswood is relatively stable, but not completely immune from that problem by any means.  (Neither is balsa, or pine, or mahogany, or any other wood I can think of.)  Varnish and other finishes can reduce the problem, but not completely eliminate it.  Experienced furniture designers work accommodation for expansion and contraction into their designs; a big mahogany tabletop, for instance, will crack eventually if the fastenings holding it to the supporting framework don't give it a little room to expand and contract across the grain. 

In model building the pieces of wood in question generally are so small that shrinking and expansion don't create a significant problem.  But if, for instance, the wing of a big airplane model were carved from one piece of wood, the chord of the wing might well change by a measurable amount - especially if the model lived in an area of big humidity changes.

Different countries do indeed use different terminology to refer to wood species.  In my original post I mentioned that basswood seems to be relatively rare in Europe, but that lots of ship modelers over there use lime for many of the same purposes.  Mr. Hall's post confirms my understanding that the wood called tulip in England is pretty much the same as what's called basswood in the U.S.

Again, I don't feel entitled to tell any modeler what materials to use; that surely ought to be a matter of personal choice.  But I do encourage anybody who's accustomed to balsa to try a harder wood.  Both bass and pine, by the way, are technically softwoods.  (Few veteran ship modelers - the only ones I can claim any real familiarity with - use pine.  It's almost as soft as balsa, and notorious for secreting juices through the finish.)  I don't think I've ever encountered a modeler who, having switched from balsa to basswood (or tulip, or lime) has switched back.  But to each his or her own.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Portland, Oregon
Posted by fantacmet on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 4:12 PM

Just a response to the "limited virtues of balsa" it's not that limited.  Maybe alone by itself, but it substantiates a significant amount of the structure in newer corvette chassis believe it or not.  Wrap Balsa with fiberglass, and you have one the of lightest and most tensily strong laminates in the world.  In the corvettes it's a sandwitch of fiberglass, balsa, fiberglass used for the floor structure and to stiffen upt he chassis and it works.  Even in some of the worst accidents this has not come apart, while the fiberglass body has disintegrated into nothingness.  Try taking a staff made from balsa and wrapped with fiberglass or carbon fiber.  You can actually take out the heavy duty steel tube that holds up street signs before you destroy the staff which weighs in at mere ounces. 

There are many such things you can do with balsa(or other materials for that matter), when laminated with something else.  Those nice strong seats in alot of fast food restaurtants and the countertops are actually superheated and compressed construction paper, with just a bit of resin impregnating them.  So many things you would assume to be made of X material are actually made with very cheap, and very flimsy materials, just laminated with something else that is cheap and flimsy and makes something incredably strong.

LAMINATES RULE!

    

  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Bedfordshire, England
Posted by ollie on Friday, August 29, 2008 2:07 PM
Does anyone know of a good UK source of Basswood? I am interested in trying some but i cant find any.
www.overthefencephotography.co.uk - aircraft photos.
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Glue and paint smeared bench, in La La Land
Posted by dahut on Friday, August 29, 2008 3:51 PM

Id use 'Kilz', the same stuff you buy at WalMart.

Let it dry and sand the dickens out of it. It seals the wood, sands down butter smooth and is white, aiding the application of color coats.

Cheers, David
  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Bedfordshire, England
Posted by ollie on Friday, August 29, 2008 4:39 PM
We dont have a Walmart in the UK.
www.overthefencephotography.co.uk - aircraft photos.
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Glue and paint smeared bench, in La La Land
Posted by dahut on Saturday, August 30, 2008 8:21 PM

Okay okay... you got me there. !

But Im certain you have a similar product there in Jolly Olde. Heres the website of the Kilz line of primer/sealers:

http://www.kilz.com/pages/default.aspx?NavID=23

Cheers, David
  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Bedfordshire, England
Posted by ollie on Saturday, August 30, 2008 10:03 PM

Im struggling to find a UK source of Basswood. i dont have a problem with sealing balsa wood. Im wondering is it possible to rough out the basic shape in balsa before using something like plasticard to build up the detail before sealing the balsa?

One reason i enjoy working with balsa is that it is very easy to sand and shape.  

www.overthefencephotography.co.uk - aircraft photos.
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