Vietnam Snipers

Hellcat man wrote:

Does anyone have a extra sniper like an M40, R700, M14 un-scoped or a M21 . I'm planning a sniper diorama and Need one or two of these rifles.

actually you also might want to add a Winchester M70 and even an M1D. The Winchester was the more common bolt gun till late in 1968, and even then there were folks that felt the bolt gun was at a disadvantage for anything under 600 yards (even Carlos Hathcock made that statement). If your doing regular Army you want an M14 with a scope (peep sited ones were kinda rare but they were out there). All the bolt guns I ever saw used the factory wood stock contrary to popular belief, and all had a 24" heavy barrel. If you scope an M14 be sure to use the side mount, and just model it after a standard 3x-9x scope you see at Walmart, but with tall turrets on it (Leatherwoods were in vogue at that time). I don't think I ever saw anybody using a really long and big scope.

gary

Hellcat man wrote:

Does anyone have a extra ...

Now thats the trick isn't it, in 1/35 or 1/16- both are scales have rare pickings for such rifles, most of the stuff is all standard M16, maybe a few M79s, the only 1/35 M14 that's decent looking, that I know of anyway, is made by Dragon and is included in their Modern Snipers kit, Out of Production, but you can usually find it on the internet somewhere in the range of 5-12 dollars depending on the source. It also includes the M40. Don't know about the Remington...

If you're talking 1/16, I don't know of anyone that makes any of those rifles, but 1/16's not my major scale. Not sure what scale you want, assuming 1/35.

Good luck finding some rifles! (and maybe I'll be able to find some sources for others, as I'm always keeping an eye out. I own the 1/35 Dragon kit- no extras though, sorry- hey there's also the Barrett .50 cal included with that one! Not Vietnam, but still sweet.)

Did someone say 1/16th!?! ..... :)

If you're looking at 1/16 scale, the ONLY M14 out there, that I've found after looking for months, is made by Deyun Hobbies and comes with a figure. Pretty pricey, but hey, I've bought whole kits b/c part #47 would make or break what I was building ...

psst was right on about the Dragon Modern Snipers kit (1/35). The M14 there is pretty dead on and clean. The scope is easily replaced if needed.

Other than that .... good luck.

Hellcat man wrote:

I have an M1D but I was reading my information source Inside the Crosshairs by Michael Lee Lanning and i it he says that most M1Ds were out of service by 1966

Hellcat man wrote:

I have an M1D but I was reading my information source Inside the Crosshairs by Michael Lee Lanning and i it he says that most M1Ds were out of service by 1966

Lanning's in error as usual. I had an M1D that still had cosmoline on it in late 1968. You didn't see a lot of them, but they were out there. SF used a good number of M1D's because they also favored the old Browning 30 caliber aircooled machine guns and the BAR (all use the same ammo). Infantry units usually used a National Match M14 that had either a Leupold or Leatherwood scope in nine power or less (I've seen more than one with a four power scope). The bolt guns used the long Redfield scopes (they also used the standard Redfield on the M14) and Unertals that had external adjustments (always out of zero). Still taking in the factor that 99% of all shots are under 250 yards; the M16 was good enough

gary

Anything, and if they're seal snipers, even more so- SEALs took and wore any camo (or lack there of) that they could get their hands on. Everything from Dunk Hunter, Blue Jeans, Tiger Stripe, origional Woodland pattern, and the sewed pockets onto everywhere. They even modified the OD GI Issue stuff and sprayed black paint in a vague Tiger Stripe pattern. They were allowed to do whatever they wanted so if it worked, it stuck. SEALs usually sported a fancy looking mustache as well lol just FYI

If it was just a sniper, or a sniper and his spotter, then they might have some kind of suit, but I think it was usually more a small group of individuals that had more of a designated marksman along with them, and as they were not there solely for sniper type missions, they'd probably be dressed somewhat similarly to the other members. I'd say flip through that book by Lanning with the pictures, there's one shot of two Army snipers with what appear to be Bamboo leaves on and around their Boonie hats, also on the following page is a Field Manual type shot that shows an A and B, front and back respectively, of a sniper's gear. Looks like a ghillie type hat, face paint, and regular camo as far as I can tell. The White Feather had one kill where he was all the way behind enemy lines to take out a VC General, almost had a VC step on him while he was making his way into position, so I'm assuming in that kind of situation, he/a sniper would have some kind of ghillie suit.

psstoff995 wrote:

If it was just a sniper, or a sniper and his spotter, then they might have some kind of suit, but I think it was usually more a small group of individuals that had more of a designated marksman along with them, and as they were not there solely for sniper type missions, they'd probably be dressed somewhat similarly to the other members. I'd say flip through that book by Lanning with the pictures, there's one shot of two Army snipers with what appear to be Bamboo leaves on and around their Boonie hats, also on the following page is a Field Manual type shot that shows an A and B, front and back respectively, of a sniper's gear. Looks like a ghillie type hat, face paint, and regular camo as far as I can tell. The White Feather had one kill where he was all the way behind enemy lines to take out a VC General, almost had a VC step on him while he was making his way into position, so I'm assuming in that kind of situation, he/a sniper would have some kind of ghillie suit.

In the bush the average sniper just wore his plain jane BDU's about 90% of the time. Never saw a "gillie suit" till somebody used one in a movie. Most snipers had to work the day shift, and the enemy tends to work the night shift. So keep that in mind. A scope is not gonna help much once the sun goes down, but I have seen more than one M16 setup with a low power starlight scope (the ones they used look almost identical to the standard scope used back then on the M16, but with a very small battery pack). I have seen another scope on M16's that looks a lot like a modern spotting scope (maybe a 60mm end bell). There's a picture of J.T. Ward holding an M16 with one out there. Probably 80% of the snipers were posted in some far forward operating base camp shooting out of the perimeter just about sunset. It was soon learned that if you went to the bush with an odd looking weapon (even a CAR 15 or were carrying a 45 out in the open) you were special, and automaticly became a prime target. Infantry snipers normally didn't operate with anybody else except a spotter / back door man, and that wasn't common. They would sorta fall into an infantry column, and then kinda fade into the bush (hopeing the trackers couldn't count that high). The problem they had was that if they had to fire three shots they were pretty much dead (the NVA wasn't exactly stupid). I did see one SF team that had a huge suppressor mounted on the front of an M14 (must have been close to two feet long). CAV units often drug a sniper along with them to zap trail watchers out ahead of them, but even those guys stayed with the troop 98% of the time (usually used national match M14's with either a Redfield or Leatherwood scope). SF teams almost never used a sniper as they really tried to avoid contact with the enemy, and prefered to use air or artillary to make their kills. I probably never saw more than a dozen snipers in my whole tour, and as I said most of them shot from inside the perimeter.

gary

psstoff995 wrote:

What I’ve done, because it is hard to do- logically one wants to paint the flesh, then apply camo stripes or camo pattern on top of the flesh, but I’ve had good results painting the whole head (and hands if you want, but I figure the paint would wear off their quick/er?) a black or a blackish green color, then going over that with more green, greenish brown, then lastly painting things like the eyes, maybe some flesh color around the lips, ears, neck, places that are extremities and would catch the brunt of leaves/hat/hands/anything that would rub the camo grease off. It’s a little backwards obviously as per how the 1:1 gets applied lol but I think the results look a lot better, otherwise if you paint the flesh normally, then go over it with the paint, it looks like what it is, just streaks of painted on color. Just my $.02

just to add to your post. Regular Army used jungle fatigues about 98% of the time. SF usually wore tiger stripes in the bush, but not always. It was quite common for one of their teams to be of mixed uniforms. LRRPS (a sniper here is about as rare as it can get) wore tiger stripes and a dark charcoal grey uniform that sorts looks like basic jungle fatigues (pockets are cut differently), and the material is the same ultra quiet stuff tiger stripes are made from. There were at least two different colors of tiger stripes used in RVN. One set was lighter in color, but still the same colors and pattern. Almost nobody took new tiger stripes into the bush, and would wash them in a very strong solution to make them fade into dull colors. There were tiger striped boonie hats issued (note they have a smaller brim on them), but were not used a lot. It's also common to see a guy wear tiger striped shirt and green pants, but never the other way around. I have seen weapons painted a faded green color and even striped with tape, but once again not very common. SOG guys never took snipers with them ever. They tend to wear whatever fits the situation. But if it wasn't tiger stripes it was black in color. I've even seen them wear black silks, and go barefooted (or wearing a pair of sandles). With the SOG guys you can use your imagination when it comes to weapons cause it was probably just fine.

gary

Hellcat man wrote:

Thanks for all of that useful info squeakie. I've decided to go ahead with this diorama. I need an Early M-16 for one of the figures. Also what about this idea? The SF guys have setup a small tent and built a fire over night. They wake up next morning to see that there are some Gook's coming towards there encampment. If any one has any better idea's please feel free to post them Alex

In the bush no one ever used a tent. You just toughed it out if it rained. We did have shelter halves, but used them back in FOB's to keep the sun off your heads as well as to stop the rain. Also a fire in the jungle would be seen for miles around let alone the smell of the smoke. They did use sterno tablets on occassion or even a small cube of C4. But as a rule they ate their rations cold.

     SF usually worked in teams that could be anything from four or five guys to twenty guys. But as a rule there'd be about three of them and several CIDG's. When they loggered in they'd kinda split up but still be in each others eyesight. Usually hid in or under some brush with a couple guys keeping watch. There missions usually never lasted much more than three or four days, so keep in mind they travel very light. The radio antenna probably wouldn't even be extended unless they were on the horn, and if it was just a como check they'd just key the mic a couple times. But when they were on the horn it was a sit report or a fire mission; unless it was for extraction. Lastly they never loggered in on low ground and also never on the top of a hill or ridge line. Just kinda in the middle and away from all trails and water. Also remember in Vietnam about 80% of all action takes place after the sun goes down, and probably 75% comes between midnight and five in the morning (hence the term "working the nightshift.")

gary

Hellcat man wrote:

I got a revised scenario. Three Sf guys are working point for a larger group. One of them has A M1D and a Thompson. The Other guy has an M-16 with a starlight scope mounted. The last guy is carrying a BAR. Still I'm looking for an M16 so if you have one and dont needed it PM me Thanks Alex

A M1D and a Thompson.

Too much weight.  You're talking around 20 pounds of weapons for one guy (11 for the Thompson and 9 for the Garand) to hump, not including ammo and magazines... Ain't saying it wouldn't happen, but even them Snake-eaters are practical...  Back-up weapon would more likely be a pistol, in fact, all three would likely be carryin' pistols. 

The Other guy has an M-16 with a starlight scope mounted

Starlight scope wouldn't be mounted until they laager up and it's about to get dark, or after they establish the LP/OP.  It's heavy, throws off the balance of the M16, and damaged easily, so it stays in the case until you're gonna use it rather than risk bangin' it up while you're humpin' the bush.   

For Vietnam era, maybe the mountain ruck on a frame (smaller than but similar to the later ALICE medium) or M156 Field pack (aka "butt pack") or possibly even the older M-1945 pack (similar to the WWII Musette bag, but with more attachment points and a different top flap) Often canteen pouches were used for M-16 magazines in addition to bandoliers and to the standard dual canteens carried. Look at how these LRRPs are equipped

Lightened that up a bit for ya Stik...

Lightened that up a bit for ya Stik...