Trumpeter to release 'Blackwater' figs

Hans von Hammer wrote:

There was only ONE genuine Mattel M-16 used in Ft Bragg...  John Wayne smashed it against a tree in The Green Berets...

There was only ONE genuine Mattel M-16 used in Ft Bragg...  John Wayne smashed it against a tree in The Green Berets...

oh no wonder, now i know gino, i learn something new everyday. guess ive been watching to much war movies with crazy lunatics spraying  their ak all over the place lol

Calvin,

All guns will issues with barrels overheating if fired too fast.  That is why we are trained to fire automatic MGs in 5-7 round bursts.  This keeps the barrel from overheating and possibly causing jams.  Yes, the M16 is a little long for urban fighting.  That is the reason the Army is moving to almost all m4s, the USMC is getting them as well.  The reason the M16 had problems in Vietnam was due to the misconception that you didn't need to clean it and poor powder in the rounds.  As we discussed above, the DoD didn't even issue cleaning kits initially.  Once these issues were identified and corrected, there were few issues with them.  The 416 is just an improved M4.  It uses the same lower receiver and replaces the upper receiver (breach, gas charging system, and barrel) with a new, closer machined piece that looks exactly the same as any other M4.  An M16/M4 will also fire if submerged in water.  Water is not a big issue since it just runs out of the gun when brought back up.

hey gino, ive heard the m4s barrel would heat up alot if it was constantly fired? but anyway the m4 is a good weapon, the only complain ive heard about the m16 was in concord publishings OIF 1, the marines said it was too unwieldy for urban combat, and they wanted the m4 to replace it. would the reason why the m16 had problems in vietnam be the humidity and or climate? ive read about the m51 reising SMG used in WWII rust and jam in the PTO due do the climate.the m16 is clearly more accurate than the ak-47,is the m416 is it based on the m4 carbine family? ive read it could be submerged in water and fired correctly when brought back up.

Blackwater figures. Hmmm. Nisor Square diorama?

Don't worry about coming off the way you do sometimes there Gino, I know you're a straight shooter and that's one of the things I respect about you. Sometimes it catches me off guard though, I get too used to FSMs forums as I'm not a member of militaryphotos or armorama- I do know (from what I've heard) that this is one of the more PC, G rated forums out there. Thanks camo for at least understanding where I'm coming from. I know no one knows everything, and I don't claim to, but I can understand how lack of real life experience can be taken as uninformed. I took "uninformed" a little too far.

Isn't it funny how a discussion can turn like this! For a moment i though i was reading militaryphots.com!

As for the M4, seen one, handled it, never got to shoot it. Shot M16, and F88, but give me an SLR anyday! nothing says die like 7.62mm!

Scott and Camo are right on it.  You can read all the books in the world, watch all the TV shows you want, look at umpteen million web sites, etc., but until you actually do something, you don't have the experience with it.  Book knowledge is one thing, but it takes actual experience to be intimately familiar with something and have a definitive opinion. 

Its great that your buddy has been competition shooting for years.  Hopefully that will make him a good marksman in the Army.  I also agree wholeheartedly with Scott about your buddy discounting the M4 because he doesn't think it is super machined for competition shooting, and hence not a dependable weapon.  Combat shooting is very different than shooting in competition though.  That is why I don't give it much credence. 

I may come across a little crass in my demeanor at times, but that is how I am.  I don't mince words.  In my line of work, it isn't good to do so.  I just tell it like it is. 

chris, you are absolutely right in that you are not uninformed!! what gino is saying (if i got it right) is that you can watch a show on the military channel about the m-16 and know all there is to know based on what they've told you...but until you actually fire the weapon..."ya dont really know"!! dont feel bad in the long run chris...i too get alot of it from people. so, i generally shut my mouth let them have their say and then laugh to myself because i know the "truth"! (not that your wrong gino...not implying you when i say this, it's only a "broad" generalization)! trust me, i know how ya feel and your points are just as valid as anyone's here! even though i make fun of ya i respect the fact that you know alot of what your saying...as long winded as it often is! anyway, everyone here would like to think they know everything about the military, about german this, iraq that, japan this...it's all crap chris...havent ya learned anything my friend. knowing things dont make you an expert and an expert is only that based upon the knowledge they've received through life experience. (except those that only think they are in their minds). reading a book will only make you knowledgable on what you've read!! anyway, i've blathered on long enough...take it for what you will and in the long run...know in your mind that the knowledge you've obtained is perfectly legitimate and real!

No, it doesn't make a difference; this has nothing to do with the M4 or my friend. While I'm sure that 16 year old lifeguard was a jerk, I don't know, I don't think Scott ripped him a new one and then went on to explain to him that he's been around pools his whole life.

A simple misunderstanding of a subject is one thing, but to then take that, call someone uninformed and treat their opinion is a complete over reaction, and it's not the first time it's happened.

Clearly I'm not uninformed if I can even comprehend the discussion were having. I'm not looking for acceptance into a military guild or brother hood, I was just talking about a weapon as I've known it. If it's going to save your life, why not treat it right and wish to have the best available product? I just find it interesting that I can have an opinion right up until the point at which it's wrong or inaccurate. Then all of a sudden I don't know anything because I've never got up and off a couch or in front of a computer.

And for the record, calvin brought up Wikipedia, I just looked at the page in question. My friend's been shooting competitions since he was in middle school. He doesn't base his opinions on anything other than his experiences. And sorry for the spelling, clearly not my strong point.

Sorry for making a huge stink out of nothing.

yeah there's alot of truth to that scott. i know artillery as being a surveyor...doesnt mean i know how to fire a cannon!! i've only put thousands of rounds down range with the m-16a1 & a2./m-60/m203. i've never had one single misfire!! never had ANY issues with my weapon. i cleaned it and used it and cleaned it some more!

with that said, i think ya finally got what i've been trying to say forever, with so many things that are truely "wrong" with the world today...does something as trivial as this really make a difference???? ok, im doing what i said i wouldnt and that's get involved...i said my peace, now i'll leave it alone!

HeavyArty wrote:

You can feel how you like, but it is true,  if you haven't been there, you don't know.  Sorry, thats just the way it is.

Coom-by-ya ... .... coom-by-ya ....

Well, you are both right .... Chris, yes, there are people like that in every line of work. Case in point ... I took to the pool the other day and had a 16 yr old lifeguard treat me like I was a drowning victim. (I'd worked around pools for about 8 yrs back in school and had been on a swim team since my coach could make me swim straight.) But this kid thought he was all that. However, Gino is also right ... Your friend, while I don't know him/ her, is ignorant if he will only fire an M4 if its made pure gold. Gino speaks of experience and experience is the key word here. If you haven't been in the military, not INvolved (contractors, family, friend of, etc) then you can't know ... b/c you don't have the experience. Same as if you are/ were in the military and you haven't been to Ranger school, or SF Selection .... nothing wrong w/ you, but you just don't know (but PLENTY of people still talk WAY too much like they do know something).

Me personally .... while I don't know anything about your friend, I think that it says something about him that he would dismiss the M4 as a valuable weapon after 1 or 2 poor experiences and a "weapons briefing" on wikipedia. Over the years and through thousands of 5.56 rnds, I've had my fair share of misfires w/ the M16/ M4 .... but then again, thats why the military teaches you SPORTS.

Lastly .... as there is well over 6 billion people on this earth today, there could be that many opinions in this particular matter. At the end of the day, if you find that you have a sore crouch b/c this subject .... you need to get out more! (I recommend yoga. .... Go ahead. Make fun ... but while you're laughing .... whos the one getting their stretch on w/ good lookin chicks in hot pants!?!)

You can feel how you like, but it is true,  if you haven't been there, you don't know.  Sorry, thats just the way it is.

chris....lol...u and your spelling. it's you never "claimed" not "climbed"....2 totally different things!! ya need to get out of northern virginia buddy!

Haha again, I never climbed to be an expert at military affairs, I was just speaking very broadly about the weapons service history and why my friend will only fire one if it's a very expensive, well tuned version. I'm sorry that your pre-conceived views of civilians as uninformed tv/internet/military wanna-bes allowed you to reread too much into it. I never stated the M4 wasn’t a good gun. But every gun has problems and shortcomings. That’s all I brought up. As much as I love ya HeavyArty, this isn’t the first time this has happened though which is probably why I’ve made such a big deal out of it. Plain and simple, you’ve said so yourself in as many words- if your not in the military, you don’t care to hear it. I don’t particularly care for that attitude, and while I’m not in the military, I am in the Emergency Services business, and their people within agencies, some I know personally, who treat civilians the same way. If they don’t know what a combi-tube is, their stupid. I’m starting to think that personality type can be found in any line of work. There’s just different ways to approach things. That’s all.

No please don’t get me wrong. When I joined this forum back in 03, you were one of the first people to come to my aid and I appreciated it then and I still appreciate it now, I’ve come to your defense a few times on what many modelers would call a clean, factory fresh build, as I know you’ve been there and you’ve seen them every day and if you tell us- listen, this is what it looks like. I believe that and I respect that. I think you’re an amazing modeler, and I just wish you’d be more open about military/civilian communication instead of lumping us all into one ignorant group.

No matter what weapon system they come out w/ that claims that it can fire through mud and grit and doesn't need to be cleaned is a waste of time.

A clean weapon will fire every time. During my last OIF vacation, our tempo became so busy that I ended up cleaning (breaking down, chipping carbon, lubing, etc) about once a week. However, I did use a dust brush everyday.

All weapons companies are trying to do the same thing .... they're trying to compensate for Soldiers who don't clean their weapons .... however, they will NEVER be able to compete with a disciplined Joe w/ a cleaning brush.

Lastly ... a collection of thoughts and opinions from people all over the world!?! HOW can wikipedia be wrong????

I got it.  I also thought I gave a pretty good explanation as to why you were incorrect.  Again though, the experience of your buddy on the range has no real credence to the actual use of a rifle in combat.  If you can show me facts from theatre or from actual Army documents that there are so many problems with the weapon then you will change my mind. 

No one told you to go join up (not a bad idea though).  It just pisses me off when people who are basing their knowledge on TV, the internet, and what their equally uniformed buddies tell them come across as if they are the experts on military affairs. 

Tell your buddy to rest assured, the Army will give him a good M4 and good amunition for it, along with the proper training on it and he will be fine.  Also let him know not to worry about the enemy spraying their inaccurate AKs from the hip.  If you look at the facts, most casualties are not caused by gunshot wounds anyways.  They usually miss when they spray or fire "aimed" shots.  He'll be just fine.

 I understand that playing with a rifle and depending on one in combat are two different things. That was my point when I stated that for a misfire on the range to be frustrating, a misfire in combat could be devastating. I know maintenance is important, and I never meant to bash the M4, it's had a great service life and is indeed much more accurate and consistent than an AK, not that it helps when the enemy shoots from the hip or around a corner. I didn't mean to interject a civilian opinion for the sake of disagreeing with those from a military background.

Please don’t think I don’t respect you guys and I’m sorry if I’ve ever acted like I know what I’m talking about and think I’ve got it all right just because I’ve watched a TV show or read up on Wikipedia. That being said, telling me politely that I’m misinformed and explaining to me why that’s the case is a lot nicer than giving me the ultimatum of either getting my facts straight or joining up and seeing combat with one so I know what I’m talking about.

My buddy that plays on the range is going to join up with the Army and is scared to death of the rifle they’ll give him. While you say the AK is stamped out- his competition AR was built to much higher specifications than the one’s the Army gets from the lowest bidder- in his mind that makes them just as stamped out. It means something to him, and he’s been shooting more than half his life. One can depend on a gun in a competition too- a life might not be on the line, but when a round blows in half in the chamber and doesn’t damage a single part- he tends to put more faith in that kind of construction then the Armalite he ended up selling after complaining to the manufacture that even with every part upgraded to their tightest, competition part- the gun still underwent significant feed problems and stovepipe failures.

I’m not saying you’re wrong in thinking that our opinions differ- I don’t disagree with that at all, I simply didn’t feel like you respected my opinion at all simply because I was a civilian who’s never fired a rifle, and that’s what upset me a bit. Show me why I’m wrong as opposed to just telling me off- that’s all.

My point is that playing with a rifle on a range and depending on one in combat are two different things.  Yes, the AK can fire when dirty and not maintained.  Can it fire accurately and well, no.  The M16/M4 series is one of the best engineered in the world.   It may be almost 50 years old, but it is still effective and a good weapon.  When a vastly superior weapon comes along, I'm sure the switch to it will be made.  It doesn't take much maintenance to keep it going either.  Any weapon that is tightly machined like the M16 series, as opposed to the cheaply stamped AK, will require cleaning and maintenance.  I'm sure the 416 and XM8 will require just as much maintenance.   

When you depend on a rifle for your survival, you take the few minutes needed to clean it and maintain it.  I guess its just the difference of perspective between civilians and military.  I have used them and know they are reliable. 

Ouch. I never claimed to have experience with the weapon or said anything I thought wasn't accurate. The problems that I was referring to had nothing to do with the powder issues and self cleaning label the gun was given in Vietnam- I know the DoD never even issued cleaning kits at the rifles introduction due to their perception of the aircraft grade parts, gas system, and the higher quality powders used during the testing period. I was talking more about the maintenance in itself. The M16's number one rival- the AK-47, requires little to none.

I realize that proper maintenance is essential, but that being said- if the 416 or the XM8 or whatever else can last longer without maintenance- be that during periods of little use or periods of extended fire, I feel like that's an improvement looking into. My friend shoots a Rock River Arms AR-15 and the only malfunction he's had in the years he's shot it have been due to poor homemade reloads. The RRA AR is a much tighter system from what I understand, and long periods of little to no use don't require cleaning in between. He's explained to me, his words not mine so I don't know their accuracy, that the upper and lower halves of Colt and Armalite don't have a perfect fit allowing outside debris. The difference in cost of course is absurd. A few hundred for an Armalite vs. a thousand plus for an RRA- I don't expect the US Government to contract their M16/M4s out to people who take longer to crank them out and charge twice as much. That being said, you must admit that the basic elements of the rifle are almost 50 years old.

While cleaning the firearm every chance one gets might be fine if one has the time, I feel like the need for a more modernized weapon system that can sustain fire with minimal maintenance for a long period of time is essential. Especially when our enemies don't care if they hide their AK in the dirt and mud, pull back the bolt when they need it and go to town. You're right that I've never handled the weapon, but that doesn't mean my opinion should be considered undervalued or plain wrong. I'm sure that, if at it's peak condition, the M4 is great- but I think there are better systems out there that work just as well, if not better, during imperfect conditions. Our troops on the front line don't have the pleasure of failure to fire that my friend does on the range- and if it's a pain for him, I can only imagine. I don't see anything wrong with top of the line equipment in the hands of our soldiers, cost aside. In my own inexperienced opinion, I just think the M16/M4 family has been forced to play too much catch up for too long a time period. I don't think the 416 or the XM8 is a godsend perfect fix system, but I think it's about time our military shifts gears to a more future thinking kit- I didn't mean anything more than that.

Don't know where you are getting your info that the M4 is not a good weapon.  If it is properly maintained and cleaned, it will fire just fine every time.  I have not had a problem with it in combat or on the range. 

The problems with the M16/CAR15 (it was not called the M4 at that time) in Vietnam had nothing to do with the gun either.  They were mainly due to inferior powder in the rounds and lack of maintenance becuase it was billed as a self-cleaning weapon.  Once Soldiers were instructed how to properly clean them and new powder was used, there were few issues. 

It is better to get your facts straight or to actually have some experience with the weapons before you make uninformed statements on them.

Thanks for the info- yeah when the M4 works, it's a great carbine, the problem is the failure to fire that they experience, probably because they're contracted out to Colt instead of a more expensive/precision armory like a Rock River... the HK apparently has a much better gas system that could better handle the harsh environment of the desert- the M4 system's been around since the 60s and wasn't even great in Vietnam. Although on that wiki page- it looks like the XM8 is a much better system. I don't like the aesthetics of that one, but I'd trust it to feed the round properly and maintain fire better than the M4/HK416 and I guess that's what counts in the field.

psstoff995 wrote:

Is that the H&K 416 you're talking about? That sounded like a nice replacement for the aging M16/M4 family; does anyone know how it's actually working out in the field or how many units/individuals got a hold of one?

hey psstoff i heard some kind of U.S SF units or seals got em, check on wikipedia they got all the users. ive seen the 416 in norway as well as other NATO countries.

its a good replacement for the m16, but i personally think the m4 can still be used. except for the stoppages it has

Is that the H&K 416 you're talking about? That sounded like a nice replacement for the aging M16/M4 family; does anyone know how it's actually working out in the field or how many units/individuals got a hold of one?

we really need more modern figs of any country,i personally would love to see someone do a modern m4 carbine set for OIF and OEF time frames, but hopefully i would love to sse a m416 AR relased sooner or later.

LOL at the walmart contractors

modelchasm wrote:

arkhunter2002 wrote: Not sure if it is right to post it here or not, but this is another Trumpeter release (or atleast a link of hope...) Someone posted Trumpeter's October update on the ARC, and this was amongst them.  It is serial number 00502 and named "AR-15/M-16/M-4 Family M-16A2".  The 00501 is the M-16A1.  Maybe they will release their M-4's that everyone seems to like as a seperate set... http://www.trumpeter-china.com/war513/products/en_message.asp?id=761       Thoughts? .... for the dear love!?! .... See!, This is what I was talking about ... This "new" M-16 family kit that Trump seems to be coming out w/ is about as '80s as Cindy Lauper!

now that's 80's!!!! and yeah grimmo, i know what your saying as i always wanted to make a paintball diorama!!! that's still on my to-do list of one day it'll happen!

arkhunter2002 wrote:

Not sure if it is right to post it here or not, but this is another Trumpeter release (or atleast a link of hope...) Someone posted Trumpeter's October update on the ARC, and this was amongst them.  It is serial number 00502 and named "AR-15/M-16/M-4 Family M-16A2".  The 00501 is the M-16A1.  Maybe they will release their M-4's that everyone seems to like as a seperate set... http://www.trumpeter-china.com/war513/products/en_message.asp?id=761   Thoughts?

.... for the dear love!?! .... See!, This is what I was talking about ... This "new" M-16 family kit that Trump seems to be coming out w/ is about as '80s as Cindy Lauper!

 

I'll be buying these fig sets! I've always wanted to make a diorama of airsoft players!