New Zvezda tank hunting dogs coming...

~Right....and there was never an end to examples of The Dogs of War

 

 

Thanks Stik for the images(and wherever you snaggged 'em)

 

 

smeagol the vile wrote:

I love this, you all scream about these dogs that were used as bombs yet you will build tons of Japanese warplanes that were used for the EXACT same purpose, ya dont say nothin.  You build models of the planes that droped the bombs that killed millions, dont say nothin.  So, im guessing that a dog's life is more important then a human's from what your saying?

Honestly? Yes. I have made that choice in the past and will make it again. I have had dogs lay their life on the line for me and returned the favor several times over. My conscience is clear.
That being said. I think you missed most of the point of this conversation. Its not for you to knock mine or anyone elses priorities back into alignment. You do what you want. Build what you want. Worry about your own universe.

Oh and as an FYI to help with your case of presenting dogs in war, the earliest records of the use of canines in war are from 2100BC, when Hammurabi employed dogs to fight alongside his most elite warriors. The Lydians and Persians used Dogs as a specific military unit later on. The first Western recorded use of the dog in war come from Aristotle’s Historia Animalium (History of Animals) written in approximately 343BC. Though the Greeks record thier use of them in the battle of Marathon (490BC). So there is some argument as to when the west first used them.
Pliny the elder, in his Naturalis Historia (Natural History) written around 77AD, also records the use of dogs in war.

Claudius Aelianus recounts the heroic efforts of a master’s dog at the battle, in De Natura Animalium. As a part of the Stoa Poikile mural, Panasios depicted one particularly brave dog in a painting of his, with the dog seated next to Miltiades, Kallymachos and Kynegeira, just after Marathon.

Well, dogs are, and arent innocent.  You can train a dog just like you can train a human.  Get a soldier, show him how to fight, and who to fight, and he will fight.  Get a dog, Teach it what to bite, and where to bite it, and he will bite it.  Same exact thing.

And dogs have been used in warfare for as long as humans have been fighting, just an FYI 

First pic I could find, see Japan in the 1800s

smeagol the vile wrote:

I suppose I should go ahead and build a dio of a soldier being run over by a tank, to get knock their priorities back into the right place

Sounds like a great Dio idea to me. Why not? As long as it's not a dog being run-over. That might get you shunned. Everyone dug my burned Nazi in my "British Airborne Holland" Dio. 

 

 People die in war. As long as the right people die it's ok. Dogs are inocents. Still...good point about the Zeiks

I suppose I should go ahead and build a dio of a soldier being run over by a tank, to get knock their priorities back into the right place

Yup... even though these dogs are shown in their live mode. Obviously it hits a nerve more than more deadly subjects that are acceptable.

I love this, you all scream about these dogs that were used as bombs yet you will build tons of Japanese warplanes that were used for the EXACT same purpose, ya dont say nothin.  You build models of the planes that droped the bombs that killed millions, dont say nothin.  So, im guessing that a dog's life is more important then a human's from what your saying?

I agree that this is just a stupid set, as was stated, modelers are looking for better figures and they could have done something else......with that being said:

When Renarts posted:

"I guess then I should wait for the little girl getting shot in the back of the head and kicked into the ditch figure set scheduled to come out in spring."

I could not help but laugh...I know its in bad taste but as it was pertaining to the thread......I thought it was funny.

 

Please dont chastise me

 

Bob

Stik,
Thats the beauty and gamble of artistic impression. Art for everyone evokes an emotion, be it fear, admiration, disgust, apathy, anger, lust etc. The old saying is true that one man's art is another's graffiti. In this case as in yours with the Abrams, its evokes one of discomfort or uneasyness. Anger or disgust. But...as a higher thinking being and as an adult you can appreciate the technological skill and talent it took to get there.

Warfare contains a fascinating aspect regardless of how much we hate it. Be it technological or industrial advancement, the human side of its stories of courage, bravery, compassion and endeavor and it also allows us to realize that despite that we can make things fly, we also have a dark side of human depravity.

I honestly hope we see more subjects of dog teams. I'm convinced there is a company out there somewhere waiting to start up that will concentrate on nothing but animals in the more popular scales. Dogs, fowl, livestock, zoo animals, exotics, all have a great place in the figure and diorama world. And are a severely lacking aspect of the hobby.

Thanks all for the discussion.

Whats next?  Berlin Occupation: Rape gang, woman and horrified child?

I suppose one could do a diorama of the WTC today. It would depend upon the audience it is presented to. At the IPMS chapter I belong to, I think most members would be more interested in the modeling talent of the builder than of the memories and feelngs of that day. I think it would be comparable to a Pearl Harbor diorama of the Arizona being sunk. There was a knocked out Abrams done on here a year or so ago. It hit an emotional nerve with me on the do not like scale because of my service, but I was also very impressed by the builders talent in depicting the wreck.

I understand your points about the dogs. Not an effective thing, but it was a Soviet/Russian thing. And being a Russian company that does a lot of Soviet/Russian subjects you dont get from anywhere else, I hope they keep turning out subjects off the beaten path. It would be nice to see more dog handler/K9 subjects out there. As usual there are a few German ones from Dragon and others, but not much else.

This thread has taken a path I never thought it would, but it has become quite interesting as well, rather than simple hey check out this new item...

Axel Smith wrote:

Thats different. Little girls getting shot in the back of the head weren't for military use.

Thats one way to look at it I guess. Or you could say that by conducting a terroristic reprisal killing on a civilian population is a means of control for the military in an attempt to quell rebellion and keep them compliant. (while this rarely works, its certainly been used by all military forces at some point)
Japanese summer camp in Nan King and the bayoneting of babies, prisoners, civilians, was a means of reprisal as well as setting the tone that the military wasn't there to occupy but to conquer and establish superiority. The bombing of Dresden was simply an act of terrorism that was meant to break the spirit of the german people and remove support for the military.

I agree that war is an inhumane and devastating state of political affairs. No firestorm, only a voicing of opinion. As I stated before, my opinion is solely that I don't like the set (it is what it is, yes it was a part of history, no it wasn't a big part of history, much like alot of DML releases of paper panzers and limited use and production vehicles). I've seen the subject matter covered before and I'm sure it will pop up at the shows and the forums. (I've also seen the vignette of the little girl being marched to the ditch and waiting her turn, while technically a wonderful piece, it also struck a cord with me) Again, it is what it is. As I said, if you research the use of the anti tank dogs, even the russians gave up on the program and saw the futility of it. I just think that there were better subjects that have not been covered yet that if you were going to make a dog set or a dog and handler team, why not something a little more accepted and crucial to history and even topical today? 10,000 US personnel owe their lives to dog teams in Vietnam. Yet nothing. And the examples are endless. To me, in my marketing mind, go with something with more appeal.

I can say from personal experience I know that dogs are tools of war and civilian use. I train dogs for the police and know that the prevailing attitude and concept that the dog is there to not only assist but take a bullet if necessary. But the MWD dog teams I've worked with and the police dog teams I've worked with all understand that these dogs are equal to a partner and treat them accordingly. Knowing that it is a tool that can be used over and over to greater effect.

No harm, no foul and I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. Just discussing my opinions and responding. Much like guys have no taste for portraying the SS or I have a couple in my local club that will not do Japanese subjects, (they still hold a grudge after having to fight them), there are subjects like this that I find distasteful. I'll be the first to admit that when it comes to people, they can be as stupid to each other all they want. They know better. The russian anti tank dog thing though.....and other various acts of stupidity, well....
On a BTW front, the insurgents in Iraq tried the same thing. Well that didn't work any better and ironicly enough, despite the islamic ideology regarding dogs, the popular outcry against this coupled with the failure brought it to a stop.

I'm curious now, based on the ideology that its all part of war, when does it become acceptable to do the diorama of the airplanes flying into the WTC?

Lets see now, atomic bomb- one plane, one bomb, one instant and a city is razed and thousands upon thousands killed with many more left to die of radiation poisoning in the aftermath- not very humane.... snipers, a single shot to the head of an unsuspecting target far away, often with a large caliber rifle-not overly humane... napalm and CBUs, dropped from fast moving aircraft against ground targets to kill and destroy by burning and shredding respectively- not very humane.... in a nutshell, war is not humane, but we do enjoy modeling the tools and implements of way. When one thinks of the end uses, it becomes somewhat hypocritical to say one tool of war is ok and another is not. They are all meant to kill. I personally have no problem with that concept. I did not mean to start a firestorm, I just thought the set was unique and interesting.  BTW, I am a dog lover as well.

renarts wrote:

I guess then I should wait for the little girl getting shot in the back of the head and kicked into the ditch figure set scheduled to come out in spring.

Thats different. Little girls getting shot in the back of the head weren't for military use. That was just to kill people.  These dogs were used in the miliray. Besides. There are companies that make causilties. Or dead People. But yet theres no issue with that. I'm not supporting the use of dags for these, not at all. I'm just saying. It was a part of the war.

I guess then I should wait for the little girl getting shot in the back of the head and kicked into the ditch figure set scheduled to come out in spring.

Youre right about the dog thing Indy, When they were making the movie Gladiator, they were supposed to kill Maximus's dog when they took him to be executed. The director told the editors to cut that part out. He knew he would lose his audience.

And maybe it is a double standard, but I see a big difference between humans being stupid i.e. Japanese lunge mines, and humans using animals to do something stupid for them.

My point is as stated, of all the things to come out with.....

Axel Smith wrote:

Guys, it doesn't matter how 'humane' or 'right' it was. Zvezda chose to make these. So people who want it can get it, and people who don't, don't have to. It is a very real part of WWII, and as apropriate a subject as any.

~You're right, of course. The thing is, most people have an odd sentimentality. A comic once put it this way : " People will sit in a theatre and watch a war film where half a million men die, but if the filmmaker kills one dog in that movie, people walk out ! "

 

I don't really agree with that, it's a joke, but there's thread of truth about how people are.....

Agreed. It's no more out of place than say Japanese troops with lunge mines used for the same purpose.

Guys, it doesn't matter how 'humane' or 'right' it was. Zvezda chose to make these. So people who want it can get it, and people who don't, don't have to. It is a very real part of WWII, and as apropriate a subject as any.

Thanks for the warning, guys.  I'll have to keep these OUT of my mom's sight or there will be a Dances with Wolves incident again.  She watched it once, and quit watching after they shot Two Socks the wolf and will not watch it again.

I'd read about this tactic in Lemish's book. (There was also another fit when Mom heard about it. Let's be honest.  I'm from a long line of animal lovers.) 

There were so many other things they could have picked. Soldiers just released a Roman and a Carthaginian war dog.  Verlinden did a Vietnam MWD team and a German and his Dobie.  I'd like to see a Riderless horse and groom. An Irish Wolfhound (I'll probably do one from scratch when I find a figure I like as a companion) or a Mastiff would be nice.  One of the old breeds.  A coloseum set with gladiators and animals.  A sheep farmer with a small flock and a Bordie would be fun for a plane's forced landing in the English countryside.  I can picture a Bordie giving a downed warbird the "eye".  Ours greeted every vehicle that way.  I'd love an ancient of Cincinatus and his plow.

Let's throw out some better ideas for them. On the non-animal side, I'd like some WWII Soviet Mechanics, aircraft and armor 1/35, 1/48, and 1/72.

I'm with Al on this one. And I'll take it a step further. This was one of those stupid, inane projects that was a miserable failure for the russians and rightfully backfired leaving the world clean of a few more stupid people. When it was used, it pretty much incapacitated a russian tank brigade because the dogs were trained using t-34's and did exactly what a dog will do of what it is trained for. Since they were trained on t-34's they ran for t-34's. And if it gets scared, will run back to its master. So when they were released, they turned and ran for what they were trained for and when it all started going whonkey and the explosions were going off the dogs ran for their handlers. Killing them in the process and good one on them. Just my opinion, and a pretty strong one at that. Kind of a righteous, ironic bit of karma. Even the russians saw the folley in this and gave up on it. The germans weren't too impressed either and although they saw the intent and thought it was a drastic measure, they also realized it was a desperate and stupid grasp at trying to counter for poor tactics and strategy. They actually used it as a propaganda piece and portrayed the russians as too weak a fighting force that they had to send dogs to do their fighting.

Of all the subjects they could have picked, they had to pick this one. The dogs with the marines in the pacific, gi's in europe, vietnam (that would have hit two birds with one stone, more vietnam era figures and mwd's), Iraq and Afghanistan, a multiple of scales, and the pogues at dml/zvezda pick this of man's folley.....
What about the signal corp dogs, medical corp dogs, mp dogs, ww1 german and belgian dog carts, mascots, farm dogs and just pure strays (outside of Doug's originals and a couple of misc from Tamiya and the German police sets by Tamiya and Masterbox)?

I've been working on sculpts of various scales to fill this niche and when I have the pieces done, I'm sending them for casting. I've got a couple of GSD's some Dobies, and a Lab. I want to do some JRT's and a couple of more GSD's and make it a worth while endeavor.

~Don't hold back Al, tell us how you really feel. I saw this kit in the Zveeda catalog I ordered a few months ago. I was not chomping to get this set. I showed it to a few friends, and none of us had ever heard of these "tragedy-dogs". Can't say life was much better after hearing of it. Pure desperation. very ugly.

In very poor taste, Zvezda. Perhaps they can next have some nicely eviscearted horses. Maybe a few figures with compound fractures, maybe a set of figures being hit with .50 cal rounds. How about a stack of dead concentration camp victims? Just because these were used doesn't mean thay have to be produced when there are countless allied figures that modelers have been begging for for years.