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Why are 54mm figures so expensive?

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 14, 2005 10:37 AM
Hi Mark,

No, I accidentally erased them. Try the post now. I edited it, and placed the correct URLs in. I have also finished another project (Royal Italian Trumpeter), and you will find photos of it posted as well. Smile [:)]

R. Merz

QUOTE: Originally posted by markworthi

RobertMerz, I tried to take a look at your Historex pics, but got the blasted red x's. A problem with my computer, I guess, because everyone else could see them. My computer is funny about which pics it lets me open for some reason.
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Friday, December 31, 2004 9:00 AM
Wish I could still get them at my LHS.
John
helicopters don't fly, they beat the air into submission
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Friday, December 31, 2004 8:49 AM
Great post, Renarts.

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Sunny Florida
Posted by renarts on Thursday, December 30, 2004 6:51 PM
QUOTE: Nope, you folks seem to have missed the point. 54's are so expensive purely because of naked greed. Sure, materials and labour are expensive, but that's because we modelers will pay whatever the market asks. Ever wonder why Britains, Dragon, etc produces in Asia and Spain? Or why the St. Petersberg Collection seems to be everywhere? Because they can be produced for pennies over there, and then sold to us for 1000% profit. Everyone has the right to make a buck, but these greedy importers are not passing on one penny of the savings.


I disagree. There are several producers here in the US, Mike Allen, Home Grown, Carter & Crowley, Lost Battalion, S&T, Michael Roberts just to name a few. Each of these companies sells figures that are comapratively priced to European or Asian manufacturers. So no greedy importers.

We are not talking large industrial complexes here. Unlike some fo the big styrene companies that can invest 100K into molds and produce large numbers to keep unit cost low, these are smaller manufacturers. So unit prices will be higher. Ranging any where from modern facilities to garage operations and they are priced accordingly.

Too there is overhead to take into consideration. Figures are sold on 3 key points. Sculpt, painted presentation and subject matter. Again, things that limit production and also keep costs high. If I have to pay a good sculptor a few hundred dollars for a figure to keep him in my organization, then that is a cost of doing business, that I need to recoupe. Art isn't cheap. And if a good sculpt will help sell the figure then its worth every penny. Then theres the painter. How much do you think he or she is worth? At pro rates of 1-2$ per mm that is not a bad price. But remember it has to be good enough to act as cover art for my packaging so it sells in a sea of packaging. Some manufacturers are wrth every penny of their pricey figures when you get down and look at the end product. Detail, clean molding, animation of stance etc.

Look into property prices, leasing costs, reference, artistic, labor, waste, marketing, manufacturing, utilties and the scale that keeps the prices down is certainly becoming unbalanced.

Now for the overseas market. Import tariffs, unions, export tariffs, warehousing, customs, shipping, material prices in country of mfg. My 15 cent an hour asian factory worker is the least of my worries. Then once its in this country there is distribution, shipping and what ever costs of doing business with importers. Politics takes a hand in all this now too. i.e. French companies are still feeling the sting of the anti french sentiment started 4 years ago in this country. (My LHS owner refuses to carry Heller in his shop). Governments is cheap labor countires can change and new restrictions or tariffs may arise that add to costs. Nobody moved anything in or out of Port Canaveral for a month after hurricane season this year. Lot of backup in customs as a result, and export had to be re-routed to clear ports to go out. This too adds a cost.

While I agree in some cases there may be an excessive profit its not an equal playing field to compare Britons with Dragon, with Pegaso with Mike Blank with United Empire. Its all different with each one offering something different in the way of packaging, sculpt and material. All of it at a price that is not set up to rake in huge profits but to sell a product at a price that is still marketable and that folks can eat and keep the lights on.

And I don't think we pay whatever the market will ask. Look at the difference between LHS and Internet Outlet. Tamiya has recently slowed prodcuing 1/35 kits and geared up selling 1/48 armor. Not because there is a demand, but because they knew they could sell more $10 kits than $30 kits. Fewer hobby shops carrying figures because they can't compete with the internet warehouses. Look in a hobby shop and compare the number of highdollar, larger scale kits compared to the number of lower priced smaller scale. Thats where the money is. Therefore the lower price has won out. Look how many folks shop on e-bay trying to get an even cheaper deal. So where there is a will there is a wallet.

On the other hand I do support your belief that there may be some gouging, but this is also a frivolous hobby. An idle past time. It consumes expendable time and dollars. What it comes down to is if they up the price, we as modelers or figure painters will pay it if we can. It is not subject to regulation like food or necessities so if the guy wants to sell it at 1000% profit, he can if we'll buy it. If not he will either a) go out of business or b) adjust his price accordingly.

Regardless, at twice the price, figures or models are still some of the best bang for your buck when it comes to expenditure compared to time spent and enjoyment aquired.Smile [:)]



Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Toronto
Posted by The Emir of Schmoe on Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:01 PM
Nope, you folks seem to have missed the point. 54's are so expensive purely because of naked greed. Sure, materials and labour are expensive, but that's because we modelers will pay whatever the market asks. Ever wonder why Britains, Dragon, etc produces in Asia and Spain? Or why the St. Petersberg Collection seems to be everywhere? Because they can be produced for pennies over there, and then sold to us for 1000% profit. Everyone has the right to make a buck, but these greedy importers are not passing on one penny of the savings.
~The Emir of Schmoe~
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:34 AM
The Tamiya figures are pretty good, considering they're almost 30 years old plastic kits. Good detail and poses, easy to assemble. If you find the box art online, what you see is pretty much what you get.
The Red Lancer is a shop with a website, one of the two best general online shops, along with http://www.sentinelminiatures.com

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 26, 2004 5:41 PM
Hi,

Sorry about the delayed response, everyone. I committed the faux pas of negelcting the "notify me when a reply is posted" button.

Al, thanks for posting the samurai pics. Those are some great looking figures, and not too pricey. I've got to start keeping lists of manufacturers... I hadn't heard of Red Lancers before your earlier recommendation, but it looks like they put out quality figures.

The Tamiya set looks pretty good, too, from the box. Wish I could see what the kit actually looks like. (My only experience with Tamiya figures are the pilots that come with their airplane kits, and those are generally good).

I actually stumbled upon the Michigan Toy soldier site the other day when looking for info on metal-casting, Ladyeyes. I sense I'm being slowly being pulled into the world of scratch-building. I'd be quite proud of myself if I could actually sculpt a passable figure and cast it (in tin?).

RobertMerz, I tried to take a look at your Historex pics, but got the blasted red x's. A problem with my computer, I guess, because everyone else could see them. My computer is funny about which pics it lets me open for some reason.

Anyway, thanks again, all.

Take care,

Mark
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Friday, December 17, 2004 8:23 AM
A quick search at http://www.redlancers.com came up with these 54mm Togukawa Samurai

Aitna $32.95

EMI $25.95

Pegaso $25.95

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Thursday, December 16, 2004 4:35 PM
Sheesh...I build 120mm and 200mm, and you guys think you have it tough???

54mm is to figure painting what 1/48 scale is to aircraft and 1/35 to armor. Too small for me to do on a regular schedule.

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 16, 2004 3:10 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by markworthi
The Historex figures seem to be a good place to start. Ultimately, I'm hoping to find good Samurai figures from the Tokugawa period, but I'd like to start with Napoleonic.


IMO, the best Samurai figures in a decent scale and that are affordable are the Tamiya "Chushingura(47 Retainer)" figures.

They often tend to pop up around December in Japan, there are 2 sets in total and should not set you abck more than $15 for, methinks, 12 figures.

Check with HLJ and Rainbow 10 for current availability.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:55 PM
Michigan Toy Soldiers (http://www.michtoy.com/) has some Historex stuff in stock. You can email or call about a specific thing to find out if its on their shelf or not.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 12:50 PM
Thanks a lot for all the information, guys. I really appreciate your taking the time.

I was looking at some of the Andrea 54 mm figures, and thought they were rather expensive, but it may be worth taking a "sample" of the various figures available in the market. (I had no idea you could actually buy molds and cast your own).

The Historex figures seem to be a good place to start. Ultimately, I'm hoping to find good Samurai figures from the Tokugawa period, but I'd like to start with Napoleonic. Then a can get some frame of comparison. I think the analogy to choosing between Tamiya\Hasegawa and other manufacturers is an apt one. Perhaps cheaper figures require a bit more fine-tuning, just as cheaper airplane kits require more detailing (scratch-building, etc) compared to the top tier (Hasegawa and Tamiya).

Thanks also for the tip about the book on conversions. That's a subject that's close to my heart.

Take care,

Mark
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 12:23 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Max stawinski

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this part of the forum. I've been mostly modeling WWII tanks for a jear of two
, but I'd like to try something a bit different. I'm painting figures now for a week of two en i like something to learn so if someone have's some tips i wold like to receve a messege

Thanks for the info,

Max
ps: if you want me e-mail its maxjhu@hotmail.com


  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 8:06 AM
Hi,

Hello,

Do you have, or have you seen, Bill Ottinger’s excellent book on Historex modeling? Ray Lamb’s conversion is featured.

It is interesting to see the evolution from the first Mokarex figures to the final Historex offerings.

It seems that these kits are almost a lost art form today. I have not met another figure modeler who actually builds Historex. It seems that those who are buying them are either collecting them, or purchase with the intent to build, and then are spooked by the first glance of the box contents (weren’t we all the first time? Smile [:)]).

They are truly a fantastic, even by today’s tough standards.

RM


QUOTE: Originally posted by renarts

RM,

I love the Historex Napoleonics. Who can forget Ray Lambs beautiful conversion of a Historex figure that till then nothing like that had been done. Beautiful work.

Someone was thinking when they came up with the historex horses too. You can mix and match halves and heads to give a myriad of poses.

To think they started out as simple collectors items in coffee tins.....

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 7:56 AM
Hello,

In the US, Squadron.com is the quickest and most reliable, but they do not carry the whole line. I have found no other supplier in the US that actually has the kits in stock, so they must be ordered directly from Historex NCO, which takes weeks.

I recommend Historex Agents in England for the best selection and service (http://www.historexagents.com/shop/hxshop.php). They offer the full line of Historex, plus nice aftermarket head and hands sets. They also have a Historex parts service. Prices are good, and once ordered, you can expect the items in four or five business days. I have ordered several hundred dollars worth of items from them and have never had a problem.

RM


QUOTE: Originally posted by ghamilt1

I completely agree with some of the other opinions regarding historex. Historex figures got me hooked into this hobby 30 years ago, and I was thinking of trying to get back into these figures. I'd love to try and do a conversion now that I'm older and a little "wiser" . Does anyone know where to get a hold of Historex figures cheaply and quickly?
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Sunny Florida
Posted by renarts on Monday, December 6, 2004 6:57 PM
Red Lancer and Squadron carry Historex figures.
Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: Western Canada
Posted by ghamilt1 on Monday, December 6, 2004 4:12 PM
I posed this same question on another forum dedicated exclusively to historic figure modeling. The consensus seemed to be that it's all about production costs, supply and demand, shipping and the other vagaries of the market economy. I think it depends largely on the manufacturer. Hasegawa and Tamiya are the "cadillac" of airplane kits, and so you have Andrea and Pegaso as the cream of the crop in the world of figures. The costs of these figures reflects the manufacturers status. How much you spend depends so much on so many factors. What period of history are you interested in? If WWII for example, you would be well served by looking at the Dragon figures in 1/35. These are dirt cheap and come 4 figures to a box. Knights and Samurai for example, are much more expensive, and are the specialty of the high end manufacturers.

I completely agree with some of the other opinions regarding historex. Historex figures got me hooked into this hobby 30 years ago, and I was thinking of trying to get back into these figures. I'd love to try and do a conversion now that I'm older and a little "wiser" . Does anyone know where to get a hold of Historex figures cheaply and quickly?
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Sunny Florida
Posted by renarts on Monday, December 6, 2004 11:33 AM
RM,

I love the Historex Napoleonics. Who can forget Ray Lambs beautiful conversion of a Historex figure that till then nothing like that had been done. Beautiful work.

Someone was thinking when they came up with the historex horses too. You can mix and match halves and heads to give a myriad of poses.

To think they started out as simple collectors items in coffee tins.....

I'll second ajlaflece on the figures. You want some nice figures to work on, Andrea and Pegaso have some wonderful offerings.
Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Monday, December 6, 2004 7:36 AM
What's already been said but toss into the mix the weak dollar versus the euro (most high quality white metal kits vcome from Spain and Italy). I've also read there is a shortage of tin in the world, raising the cost of the raw materials.
That being said, http://www.squadron.com has much of the Andrea line at very good prices. http://www.redlancers.com and http://www.sentinelminiatures.com both always have a good selection of figures on sale.

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 6, 2004 5:12 AM
Hello,

I cannot resist chiming in on this… Smile [:)]

If you want a true challenge, why not try a Historex kit? They are the best injection molded plastic kits ever produced (in my opinion), are more detailed than any other figure kit I have ever seen (again, my opinion), and are the most affordable for what you get (ranging from $4.97 for a foot figure to $24.00 for some mounted figures).

These kits offer all the splendor of the Napoleonic period with the best, most accurate kits, which are easily detailed and converted. I have been working exclusively with these kits for over a year now (it takes me about two to three months to finish one figure), and have nearly 100 more on the shelf. I am here to tell you that for the price, these cannot be beat. Plus, when you are done, you have a true marvel of craftsmanship you can be proud of. These kits have been termed “white badges of courage,” and I can see where this comes from, but if one is willing to take the time to carefully build, convert, and paint, there is not a figure kit that can equal a Historex kit.

Give one a try! Big Smile [:D]

RM


QUOTE: Originally posted by markworthi

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this part of the forum. I've been mostly modeling WWII aircraft, but I'd like to try something a bit different. 54 mm seems like something within my abilities, but why is this scale so expensive compared to other scales (both smaller and larger)? Simply supply and demand? Or are they better detailed, in general?

Thanks for the info,

Mark


  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 5, 2004 10:51 PM
You think those are pricy wait till you see some of the figure kits from Japan. Wink [;)]
Houw about a $180 figure to go with a $40 Bike kit.

54mm is about 1/32 scale which is common for certain tabletop wargames, now most wargamers buy the molds rather than individual figures to make their armies.

If they are white metal figs, than they most likely are cast in latex molds from a clay scultpure(this usually destroys the original scultpure).
If you take care of a latex mold you should be able to cast about 500 figures before the mold is gone. Good silicone molds for resing figures might last at the most for 50~70 pulls(silicone molds DON'T destroy the original/master).
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Sunny Florida
Posted by renarts on Sunday, December 5, 2004 10:36 PM
Depends on the manufacturer of figures.
Much of it has to do with materials, level of detail, and size of production. (and company)
Styrene or plastic will be the least expensive. Resin is second on the list but the detail is greater and the clean up is minimal. Metal is the most expensive. Mainly for materials and production process costs. Demand will also have an effect. If the production outfit is small and the demand high the cost will remain high. But if the demand is great enough to warrant a larger production run, the per unit cost can go down with the mfr. and retailer able to reflect that decrease in unit cost (or not).

You'll have to dig to find the best deals and may have to mix medias to get exactly what you want.

Just wait till you get interested in 90 or 120 mm figures. $$$$$$$
Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
  • Member since
    November 2005
Why are 54mm figures so expensive?
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 5, 2004 7:32 PM
Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this part of the forum. I've been mostly modeling WWII aircraft, but I'd like to try something a bit different. 54 mm seems like something within my abilities, but why is this scale so expensive compared to other scales (both smaller and larger)? Simply supply and demand? Or are they better detailed, in general?

Thanks for the info,

Mark

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