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Roman Warship

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  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Roman Warship
Posted by millard on Friday, February 27, 2009 9:02 PM

This is first time I've send pictures on the forum. I send some photos to Big jake and he thought I should try and share them.I'm getting use to my camara so bare with me.This is the Roman warship kits thats been around for a while.Imai,Minicraft, and others have boxed it.this was Academy that I picked up last year. I changed the yards out to wood and added cloth sails.The wooldings were sanded off the mast and scale rope added.I hand painted the hull with artist oils and wood stains also the deck.The rope I use an india ink wash to age it.I finished the kit a couple of weeks ago.Thanks for taking a look.

Rod

  • Member since
    January, 2009
  • From: Oregon
Posted by falschimjager on Friday, February 27, 2009 10:21 PM
That looks great! any idea on the kind of warship it is.
  • Member since
    June, 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Saturday, February 28, 2009 1:47 AM

A very nice build Rod, I remember building this one when I was still at high school. You have done the model justice and I will definately be trying the indian ink method on rigging on a future build.

cheers,

Julian Thumbs Up [tup]Thumbs Up [tup]

 

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  • Member since
    February, 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Saturday, February 28, 2009 6:45 AM

Rod,

On the anchor, I can see rope that is wraped/tied around points on it.  It does not look like it's holding it down but simply use to dress it off, why is that?  And before you answer, I know you would not have put that there had it not been correct.  I just don't know why.

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    January, 2007
  • From: Richmond, Va.
Posted by Pavlvs on Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:39 AM
 falschimjager wrote:
That looks great! any idea on the kind of warship it is.


It is called a monoreme. It was a small warship that had only one bank of oars. The ship that was in the famous scenes in the movie Ben Hur was a Trireme. It had three sets of oars. That is why there were three men to a bench. The monoreme which had one man to a bench would be equivalent to a frigate or destroyer whereas the trireme would be the Roman equivalent to a battleship. The castle was actually built of stone and was where the archers would have fired from in close combat after the ship had rammed its opponent with the bow ram. Naval battle back then was like siege warfare at sea. They came alongside and fought like two mobile fortresses. The tactic of simply staying at a distance and sinking your enemy with cannon fire (or catapults as the Roman biremes and triremes were equipped with) did not appear until Elizabethan England. The mighty Spanish Armada then still used the siege warfare doctrine which was completely ineffective unless you grapple with your enemy. The British stayed away from the bigger Spanish Galleons and sank them with long range cannon fire. From then, Britannia ruled the waves.

Getting back to Rome, the monoremes were used for shore patrols and escort duties protecting the Roman merchant ships from pirates and the like. They were built for speed and agility rather than brute force and they were not equipped for long voyages like the "Scourge of Poseidon" as the Romans called their main fleet.

p.s., Beautiful building job!

Deus in minutiae est. Fr. Pavlvs

On the Bench: 1:200 Titanic; 1:16 CSA Parrott rifle and Limber

On Deck: 1/200 Arizona.

Recently Completed: 1/72 Gato (as USS Silversides)

  • Member since
    February, 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:28 AM
Actually, I understand that the conventional view from a military history standpoint is that the castles were built of wood and other such light materials, and painted to resemble stone ...
  • Member since
    January, 2007
  • From: Richmond, Va.
Posted by Pavlvs on Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:53 AM
The real stone was there to protect the archers from fire and flaming arrows. If a flaming arrow stuck into a wooden wall which was painted, the fire would spread due to the paint being flammable even when dry. The decks were easier to extinguish but the if the castle was framed in wood, it was cladded in stone much like the houses today built of wood and covered with brick veneer.

Deus in minutiae est. Fr. Pavlvs

On the Bench: 1:200 Titanic; 1:16 CSA Parrott rifle and Limber

On Deck: 1/200 Arizona.

Recently Completed: 1/72 Gato (as USS Silversides)

  • Member since
    February, 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Saturday, February 28, 2009 10:14 AM

 Pavlvs wrote:
The real stone was there to protect the archers from fire and flaming arrows. If a flaming arrow stuck into a wooden wall which was painted, the fire would spread due to the paint being flammable even when dry. The decks were easier to extinguish but the if the castle was framed in wood, it was cladded in stone much like the houses today built of wood and covered with brick veneer.

That's the first time that I've ever heard of that, and I have read many articles and books on Roman military history and archaeology over the past two plus decades.

Regardless, the Romans would have had several alternatives to oil paint, and several alternatives to stone for fire-resistant coverings. For example, they covered siege towers, sheds and galleries with untreated animal hides, with or without layers of wet seaweed under the hides. If that was good enough on land, it ought to have been just as good, if not better, at sea.

Besides siege equipment, another obvious ancient parallel would be elephant howdahs (towers), some of which are also depicted in contemporary art as looking stone-built. Obviously, they would not have used real stone for elephant howdahs, and the consensus is that they used wood with hide coverings. 

 

 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:17 AM

Jake

 The anchor idea was from different paintings and material I read.The thought being they were made from wood more than metal. Thus they would be  piece's of wood that could be lash together to form the anchor. Little bit of modelers licence I would say

The castle I have had the understanding that it was made from wood and painted to appear stone to more terrorize their foe. I tried to get this look on the model.

Julian

I use a plastic 35mm film cannister put about 12 drops of black india ink in fill the rest of the cannister with denatured alcohol. I then put my lengths of rope in for about a minute.Pull it out run it through a paper towel to wipe off excess and dry.Than I run it thru my bees wax

Thanks everone

Rod

  • Member since
    February, 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:16 PM

By the way, that is a nice build, Rod! I have a Zvezda Greek trireme to build, and am going to check your pictures for ideas and inspiration.

I would also like to try waterlining and re-scaling mine from 1/72 to 1/56, to make it suitable for so-called 28mm figures in a gaming context. I think that finding (or making) suitable rowers is going to be one challenge, as will spacing the oars out to reflect the new scale, nevermind re-scaling at least deck planking and other scale-betraying details.

  • Member since
    February, 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 5:40 PM

nice build! the paint and weathering is amazing

so the romans actually put a stone structure on the deck of a ship....

 

crazy romans

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    February, 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 6:41 PM
It probably wasn't stone ... 
  • Member since
    February, 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:13 AM

but it was a joke

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    February, 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Thursday, March 05, 2009 12:44 PM
 enemeink wrote:

but it was a joke

That's what I thought, but I wasn't quite sure.  Smile [:)] 

 

  • Member since
    February, 2006
  • From: portland oregon area
Posted by starduster on Thursday, March 05, 2009 2:15 PM
   Awesome build, I think I herd that those towers were built from volcanic pumice stone which would be lighter in weight than regular stone this was mentioned on the history channel on one of there civilization series, the rope in India ink is great, thanks for these photos I love these old ships.   Karl
photograph what intrests you today.....because tomorrow it may not exist.
  • Member since
    February, 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:41 PM

 starduster wrote:
   Awesome build, I think I herd that those towers were built from volcanic pumice stone which would be lighter in weight than regular stone this was mentioned on the history channel on one of there civilization series, the rope in India ink is great, thanks for these photos I love these old ships.   Karl

I thought about pumice, but I really doubt it - many Roman galleys were built on the spot and as needed by the legions, and this was often done far from any sources of pumice, e.g. along the coast of Gaul, the Rhine, or the Danube. I really don't see a Roman general holding up a campaign while his legions wait a month or two for a few wagon convoys or barge loads of pumice to arrive from Italy.

I would also take anything on the History Channel with a huge grain of salt ... 

  • Member since
    January, 2009
  • From: Oregon
Posted by falschimjager on Thursday, March 05, 2009 8:44 PM
 vonBerlichingen wrote:

 starduster wrote:
   Awesome build, I think I herd that those towers were built from volcanic pumice stone which would be lighter in weight than regular stone this was mentioned on the history channel on one of there civilization series, the rope in India ink is great, thanks for these photos I love these old ships.   Karl

I thought about pumice, but I really doubt it - many Roman galleys were built on the spot and as needed by the legions, and this was often done far from any sources of pumice, e.g. along the coast of Gaul, the Rhine, or the Danube. I really don't see a Roman general holding up a campaign while his legions wait a month or two for a few wagon convoys or barge loads of pumice to arrive from Italy.

I would also take anything on the History Channel with a huge grain of salt ... 

 

Yeah, they lost credibility after monsterquest and UFO hunters.

  • Member since
    May, 2012
Posted by Small Art Works on Sunday, March 31, 2013 11:34 PM

Nice explanation! Thank you!

  • Member since
    May, 2004
  • From: Mount Bretherton Model Aircraft Observatory
Posted by f8sader on Friday, April 19, 2013 5:54 PM

vonBerlichingen
It probably wasn't stone ... 

Can you imagine a large stone, let alone a stone castle on deck in rolling sea?

Lon-ski

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, April 20, 2013 10:36 AM

Outstanding build! However, I believe that the basic kit is missing one detail. During the Punic Wars against Carthage, the Romans devised a feature designed to maximize their strength as soldiers: the Corvus. It was a spiked bridge that was mounted on the bows and would be lowered onto the decks of an enemy so that they Romans could swarm onto enemy decks. I believe that it was first pictured in Tarn's work on ancient warships, but I am not sure.

Again, this is a terrific build nad I am glad that you posted it!

Bill

  • Member since
    February, 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:18 PM

The Romans continued to use galleys long after the Punic Wars, after which time the corvus would seem to have fallen out of use.

  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:28 PM

It's an excellent ship.  Nice work!

    Nulla Rosa Sine Spina

fox
  • Member since
    January, 2007
  • From: Coatesville, Pa.
Posted by fox on Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:28 PM

Nice job Rod. Toast

Jim Captain

Photobucket Main WIP: Rebuild of Monogram 1/8 "Big Deuce" with 1/8 Pocher V-12 in rear - 10%

   On the Bench:   Revell 1/48 Ju 52/3m - 50%;  Revell 1/96 USS Kearsarge - 20% 

I keep hitting "escape", but I'm still here.

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, April 20, 2013 2:33 PM

I would be interested to see some definitive information on when both the corvus and the tower went out of use. Unfortunately for the rivet counters, I'm not sure there is a definitive answer.

That said, a great build is a great build! I am impressed!

Bill

  • Member since
    March, 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, April 20, 2013 8:13 PM

It's great to see those pics, Rod!  I have the ERTL/Imai boxing of this kit in my stash...thinking I'll build it with the Imai Greek Warship as a double-build...

Terrific work, as always!

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     (_D_P_K_)
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Current Project:  Heller 1/100 Soleil Royal

Recently Finished:  Imai Golden Hind 1/70

Next Up:  ?? 

 

  • Member since
    February, 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Sunday, April 21, 2013 8:47 AM

Of course, there will probably never be a definitive answer. Still, textual and archaeological sources suggest that the corvus was abandoned sometime during or after the Punic Wars. For lazy examples:

en.wikipedia.org/.../Corvus_(boarding_device)

en.wikipedia.org/.../Roman_navy

The later representations of galleys that I have seen omit the corvus. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is highly suggestive.

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, April 21, 2013 3:49 PM

This is an interesting historical discussion generated by an outstanding model. I noticed in several depictions of Roman ships on the coins that the ships could have a corvus without castle, have both a corvus and a castle, have multiple castles with no corvus, or have neither. Given recent finds of sunken Roman and Greek wrecks under the Mediterranean, perhaps we will have a clearer picture in the future. One can only hope!

Bill

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Sunday, April 21, 2013 7:35 PM

Thanks everone for the nice comments on my build. The funny  thing about this build it was mostly for the paint work. I've built this kit a couple of other times in the past. I got this book from Andrea Press about a diorama build of a Bireme.Title of it is BIREME roman naval warfare in history and diorama.First published in 2004. I liked the coloring and weathering that they did I copied it some what.I do know somethings on my build like the deadeyes and blocks are not correct but choose not to change them.The Andrea Press model has a wooden fighting castle.I again decide not to scratch build one and used the kit furnish one.I decide to make it look stone like. One of my former builds I did make a wood looking castle.That model is not around anymore. Thanks again

Rod

  • Member since
    July, 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, April 22, 2013 12:32 AM

Rod,

I love the way you painted and built this ship, in fact it inspired me on building my own.  Like Dave, it was in my stash and I pulled it out a couple of months ago with the Imai Greek Warship and have been tinkering with them since.  They are one of my many parralel builds that I have going while I work on a project so that I can keep my chops up.  As I have told you before, I really love your building and painting techniques which pushed me to come up with a faux wood technique of my own.

Thanks again,

Steve

Have you posted your Chebec here?

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:45 AM

I have not posted the Chebec here.Its over on Model Warships.com.They make it a lot easier to post photo's than this site does. Keep me posted on your builds I'm very interested to see them.Thanks Steve.

Rod

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