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Roman Warship

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  • Member since
    June 2013
Posted by Pablo on Monday, March 17, 2014 8:54 PM

Can anyone tell me if FSM published an article on a Roman Warship?  

Paul Baum

Missouri

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, April 27, 2013 6:03 PM

Here are the two models with the replacement shields and figures that are in 1/72 scale.  As you can see the hulls are different especially in the bow and a bit in the stern.  In regards to the other pieces, the mast and ladders are the same as well as the steering oars and deadeyes.  The shields are much too thick and clunky for me, hence the replacement shields.

Orion Figures packages a set of Roman Sailors which includes 26 rowers, and a drummer laying down the groovy beats that Prof Tilley has provided.  There are also sailors that are in in various poses, "marines" with something that I believe represents a flame thrower a la Greek Fire.

Since there are currently 26 oars in both the Roman and Greek versions, I would venture that the set was set up for the Roman or Greek Warship. If I could figure out how to make more oars, say with resin, I would buy more figures.  I have not done a price comparison on making resin oars vs. buying two more ship kits to create a bireme along with two more figure packages to populate them.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:22 PM

Part two of a very lazy afternoon.

Tilley's one sided display idea is a good one. For some reason every ship I build ends up with a good side and a bad side, and they all get displayed on shelves broadside as well. I've even cheated on the rat line issue that way. Under the assumption that someday when I "have nothing else to do" I'll flip the thing around and go to work on the other side.

I could also see lessening the difficulty of making more oars by shipping the lower ones against their bulwarks with only the blades evident under the side extensions.

Of course having the oars extended without slaves holding on to the ends is a little unusual.

If memory serves me still, the Aurora Viking ship had rowers.

But that idea has practical limitations.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:02 PM

As I suspected, no surprises but this model falls straight from the pages of Landstrom, in this case 44-45. Many of the ancient kits out there do.

One major difference is the deadeyes; L's are rectangles, but everything else is a direct lift down to the wolf on the beak.

He spends some time discussing the castle, including the theory that in one bas relief that's a good depiction of a trireme the thing may in fact be a tower on a farther shore beyond. But other drawings show such a thing on board, although more in the form we'd expect from that civilization that were gifted military architects.

As the Romans were good at this stuff to understate the case, and as everything they ever created was copied for centuries, and not knowing of any later examples of floating masonry with the possible exception of those concrete ships from the early 20 th and the try works on board the barks that my Nantucket forebears sailed on and mutinied from, I am going with painted wood ala theatrical excess.

A marvelous feature on a wonderfully built model.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, April 27, 2013 1:06 AM

I bought the Imai "Roman Warship" kit a few years back in its new Academy box.  In many ways it's an excellent kit.  I love the planking detail and, especially, the ingenious slide-molded deadeyes.  I wish they were available separately, by the dozen or hundred.  And dig those wonderful "gold"-plated mounting pedestals!  And Mr. Millard did a superb job on his.

I have to say, though, that I have two reservations about the kit.  For one thing, the scale on the box, 1/250, is utterly absurd.  I don't know whether the original Imai version had that scale on it, or whether Academy added it, but the kit is on a much larger scale than that.

My other, more serious reservation has to do with the oars.  The hull is that of a bireme.  There are supposed to be two rows of oars on each side - one row sticking out below the "outrigger boxes" (as supplied in the kit), and the other row (not in the kit) sticking through the holes in the edges of those boxes.  Without that upper row of oars, the outriggers have no purpose.

I don't know why Imai made this mistake.  I do remember that Imai offered two ancient galley kits - a Greek one and a Roman one - that used many of the same parts.  (I don't recall whether the hulls were identical - but I think they may have been.)  The "Greek" kit, as I remember, had the oars sticking out through the outrigger boxes, and the "Roman" version (the one offered now by Academy) has the oars sticking out underneath.

I can suggest three fixes.  One - make the additional oars from scratch.  (Let's not get into the question of how Academy would feel about making cast resin copies of the ones in the kit.)  Two - buy two kits.  (The oars in the lower row presumably would have to be shortened.)  Three - just put all the oars that come with the kit on one side of the model, and display it on a narrow shelf with the other side facing the wall.  (Or maybe the oarsmen on the other side have been ordered to ship oars, perhaps to avoid another ship.) 

The goof regarding the oars is a real shame.  To my eye, at least, this is the best of the several ancient galley kits on the market - far better than the Heller alternatives.  The Imai line of sailing ships was, in my humble opinion, the best series of plastic sailing ships we've yet seen.  I think these two galleys may have been among the company's first efforts.

Ambitious modelers interested in ancient galleys might be interested in the wood kits made by the Czech firm Dusek.  I hadn't heard of this company until quite recently, and I've never seen any of its kits "in the flesh," but on the basis of the photos the Greek bireme and trireme look pretty good.  Here's a link:  http://www.dusekshipkits.com/kits.html .

Finally - for the benefit of "Ben Hur" fans who haven't already heard this:

"Battle...speed!"  Thump.......thump.......thump.......thump....

"Attack...speed!"  Thump.....thump.....thump.....thump....

"Ramming...speed!"  Thump...thump...thump...thump...

"Waterskiing...speed!"  Tumpathumpathumpathumpathumpa....

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, April 26, 2013 6:03 PM

Ha!  It's true...I've been sitting back, watching Rob's CS build for weeks...now that he's done, I find myself looking for more fun builds to follow!  Good times!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, April 26, 2013 11:54 AM

Will do Rod.  I have really been modeling, just not as much as I like.  Between the boys and writing, I do not have a great amount of time to build.  If I get a half hour a week, I feel lucky.

I am still trying to think up a way to remove the bloody rear hatch on the Nina without pulling the deck out.  It may come to that in the long run but I am not quite ready to do that.  Which is a long winded way of saying the Nina is on hold as well as the Pinta.  The Santa Maria was pulled apart a couple of weeks ago so that I can renovate it.  I let my youngest "build it" but he lost interest after glueing the hull and decks on and as far as he's concerned, he's done, perfectus!

Hope you are doing well and please post your Chebec here if the feeling hits you, it is a thing of beauty that you need to share it here.  We need more sailing ships here, Rob has been pulling the load with his beautiful Cutty Sark builds without much help from us.

Semper Fidelis

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:45 AM

I have not posted the Chebec here.Its over on Model Warships.com.They make it a lot easier to post photo's than this site does. Keep me posted on your builds I'm very interested to see them.Thanks Steve.

Rod

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, April 22, 2013 12:32 AM

Rod,

I love the way you painted and built this ship, in fact it inspired me on building my own.  Like Dave, it was in my stash and I pulled it out a couple of months ago with the Imai Greek Warship and have been tinkering with them since.  They are one of my many parralel builds that I have going while I work on a project so that I can keep my chops up.  As I have told you before, I really love your building and painting techniques which pushed me to come up with a faux wood technique of my own.

Thanks again,

Steve

Have you posted your Chebec here?

       

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Sunday, April 21, 2013 7:35 PM

Thanks everone for the nice comments on my build. The funny  thing about this build it was mostly for the paint work. I've built this kit a couple of other times in the past. I got this book from Andrea Press about a diorama build of a Bireme.Title of it is BIREME roman naval warfare in history and diorama.First published in 2004. I liked the coloring and weathering that they did I copied it some what.I do know somethings on my build like the deadeyes and blocks are not correct but choose not to change them.The Andrea Press model has a wooden fighting castle.I again decide not to scratch build one and used the kit furnish one.I decide to make it look stone like. One of my former builds I did make a wood looking castle.That model is not around anymore. Thanks again

Rod

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, April 21, 2013 3:49 PM

This is an interesting historical discussion generated by an outstanding model. I noticed in several depictions of Roman ships on the coins that the ships could have a corvus without castle, have both a corvus and a castle, have multiple castles with no corvus, or have neither. Given recent finds of sunken Roman and Greek wrecks under the Mediterranean, perhaps we will have a clearer picture in the future. One can only hope!

Bill

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Sunday, April 21, 2013 8:47 AM

Of course, there will probably never be a definitive answer. Still, textual and archaeological sources suggest that the corvus was abandoned sometime during or after the Punic Wars. For lazy examples:

en.wikipedia.org/.../Corvus_(boarding_device)

en.wikipedia.org/.../Roman_navy

The later representations of galleys that I have seen omit the corvus. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is highly suggestive.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, April 20, 2013 8:13 PM

It's great to see those pics, Rod!  I have the ERTL/Imai boxing of this kit in my stash...thinking I'll build it with the Imai Greek Warship as a double-build...

Terrific work, as always!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, April 20, 2013 2:33 PM

I would be interested to see some definitive information on when both the corvus and the tower went out of use. Unfortunately for the rivet counters, I'm not sure there is a definitive answer.

That said, a great build is a great build! I am impressed!

Bill

fox
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Narvon, Pa.
Posted by fox on Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:28 PM

Nice job Rod. Toast

Jim Captain

 Main WIP: 

   On the Bench: Artesania Latina  (aka) Artists in the Latrine 1/75 Bluenose II

I keep hitting "escape", but I'm still here.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:28 PM

It's an excellent ship.  Nice work!

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:18 PM

The Romans continued to use galleys long after the Punic Wars, after which time the corvus would seem to have fallen out of use.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, April 20, 2013 10:36 AM

Outstanding build! However, I believe that the basic kit is missing one detail. During the Punic Wars against Carthage, the Romans devised a feature designed to maximize their strength as soldiers: the Corvus. It was a spiked bridge that was mounted on the bows and would be lowered onto the decks of an enemy so that they Romans could swarm onto enemy decks. I believe that it was first pictured in Tarn's work on ancient warships, but I am not sure.

Again, this is a terrific build nad I am glad that you posted it!

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Mount Bretherton Model Aircraft Observatory
Posted by f8sader on Friday, April 19, 2013 5:54 PM

vonBerlichingen
It probably wasn't stone ... 

Can you imagine a large stone, let alone a stone castle on deck in rolling sea?

Lon-ski

  • Member since
    May 2012
Posted by Small Art Works on Sunday, March 31, 2013 11:34 PM

Nice explanation! Thank you!

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Oregon
Posted by falschimjager on Thursday, March 5, 2009 8:44 PM
 vonBerlichingen wrote:

 starduster wrote:
   Awesome build, I think I herd that those towers were built from volcanic pumice stone which would be lighter in weight than regular stone this was mentioned on the history channel on one of there civilization series, the rope in India ink is great, thanks for these photos I love these old ships.   Karl

I thought about pumice, but I really doubt it - many Roman galleys were built on the spot and as needed by the legions, and this was often done far from any sources of pumice, e.g. along the coast of Gaul, the Rhine, or the Danube. I really don't see a Roman general holding up a campaign while his legions wait a month or two for a few wagon convoys or barge loads of pumice to arrive from Italy.

I would also take anything on the History Channel with a huge grain of salt ... 

 

Yeah, they lost credibility after monsterquest and UFO hunters.

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Thursday, March 5, 2009 7:41 PM

 starduster wrote:
   Awesome build, I think I herd that those towers were built from volcanic pumice stone which would be lighter in weight than regular stone this was mentioned on the history channel on one of there civilization series, the rope in India ink is great, thanks for these photos I love these old ships.   Karl

I thought about pumice, but I really doubt it - many Roman galleys were built on the spot and as needed by the legions, and this was often done far from any sources of pumice, e.g. along the coast of Gaul, the Rhine, or the Danube. I really don't see a Roman general holding up a campaign while his legions wait a month or two for a few wagon convoys or barge loads of pumice to arrive from Italy.

I would also take anything on the History Channel with a huge grain of salt ... 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: portland oregon area
Posted by starduster on Thursday, March 5, 2009 2:15 PM
   Awesome build, I think I herd that those towers were built from volcanic pumice stone which would be lighter in weight than regular stone this was mentioned on the history channel on one of there civilization series, the rope in India ink is great, thanks for these photos I love these old ships.   Karl
photograph what intrests you today.....because tomorrow it may not exist.
  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Thursday, March 5, 2009 12:44 PM
 enemeink wrote:

but it was a joke

That's what I thought, but I wasn't quite sure.  Smile [:)] 

 

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Thursday, March 5, 2009 11:13 AM

but it was a joke

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Wednesday, March 4, 2009 6:41 PM
It probably wasn't stone ... 
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, March 4, 2009 5:40 PM

nice build! the paint and weathering is amazing

so the romans actually put a stone structure on the deck of a ship....

 

crazy romans

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:16 PM

By the way, that is a nice build, Rod! I have a Zvezda Greek trireme to build, and am going to check your pictures for ideas and inspiration.

I would also like to try waterlining and re-scaling mine from 1/72 to 1/56, to make it suitable for so-called 28mm figures in a gaming context. I think that finding (or making) suitable rowers is going to be one challenge, as will spacing the oars out to reflect the new scale, nevermind re-scaling at least deck planking and other scale-betraying details.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:17 AM

Jake

 The anchor idea was from different paintings and material I read.The thought being they were made from wood more than metal. Thus they would be  piece's of wood that could be lash together to form the anchor. Little bit of modelers licence I would say

The castle I have had the understanding that it was made from wood and painted to appear stone to more terrorize their foe. I tried to get this look on the model.

Julian

I use a plastic 35mm film cannister put about 12 drops of black india ink in fill the rest of the cannister with denatured alcohol. I then put my lengths of rope in for about a minute.Pull it out run it through a paper towel to wipe off excess and dry.Than I run it thru my bees wax

Thanks everone

Rod

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