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Nagato CAD line fix.

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  • Member since
    November, 2004
  • From: Tyrone Georgia USA
Nagato CAD line fix.
Posted by gsharris on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 3:58 PM

I have found a quick and inexpensive way to mask out the Nagato CAD lines. The product is called Porc-a-fix (PAF) from KIT Industries and is a procelain touch-up glaze. It is sold at Home Depot in a 15cc bottle for $4.50, is the consistancy of motor oil, does not shrink and dries in about two hours to a smooth gloss finish.

I masked off the area of the Nagato hull above the water line and brushed on PAF in three lifts using a wide fine brush. This did not completely cover the CAD lines but did raise them from the hull so that light sanding with a wet 400 grit block removed most of the lines without damage to the rest of the hull in about 15 minutes. Three coats of paint with Future on top of each coat has covered the rest of the lines. The entire process took about three days.

I have used PAF before to fill in ejection pin marks without sanding and no shrinkage.

I also found that the kit bulkheads provided an excellent means of holding the hull while applying the PAF, sanding and applying the finish paint. 

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:44 PM

Thank you for that information!  I am going nuts trying to fill those CAD lines with thin putty.  I will try your method.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March, 2004
  • From: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Posted by subfixer on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:53 PM
 gsharris wrote:

I have found a quick and inexpensive way to mask out the Nagato CAD lines. The product is called Porc-a-fix (PAF) from KIT Industries and is a procelain touch-up glaze. It is sold at Home Depot in a 15cc bottle for $4.50, is the consistancy of motor oil, does not shrink and dries in about two hours to a flat gloss finish.

I masked off the area of the Nagato hull above the water line and brushed on PAF in three lifts using a wide fine brush. This did not completely cover the CAD lines but did raise them from the hull so that light sanding with a wet 400 grit block removed most of the lines without damage to the rest of the hull in about 15 minutes. Three coats of paint with Future on top of each coat has covered the rest of the lines. The entire process took about three days.

I have used PAF before to fill in ejection pin marks without sanding and no shrinkage.

I also found that the kit bulkheads provided an excellent means of holding the hull while applying the PAF, sanding and applying the finish paint. 

Please excuse my ignorance, but just what is a "flat gloss" finish?

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    November, 2004
  • From: Tyrone Georgia USA
Posted by gsharris on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:09 PM

Perhaps smooth glossy would be a better term to use. PAF will flow into cracks and scratches thus the smooth serface when dry and a gloss reflectance.

  • Member since
    May, 2003
  • From: Central USA
Posted by qmiester on Thursday, August 07, 2008 7:05 AM
Something else you might try is correction fluid (used to be called typing correction fluid). Comes in soft plastic containers and is applied through a ball point applicator.  Simply shake the container for a few seconds - apply ball tip to model, press, squeeze tube lightly and run down the line with it.  Dries in a minute or two, sands easily and doesn't react to model paints.  And only costs a couple of bucks - I use Pental and get it at the local dime store.
Quincy
  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, August 11, 2008 9:11 AM
Just a guess, but I think he means 'flat' as in 'not lumpy or showing brush marks,' not flat as in 'matte finish'.......
  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Monday, August 11, 2008 8:42 PM
gsharris - thank you kindly! Make a Toast [#toast] will look for that product soon

 

 

  • Member since
    January, 2005
  • From: Cave City, KY
Posted by Watchmann on Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:21 PM
I got some of that stuff a year back or so; it was recommended in the Tips section of FSM.  Got it home, tried it and noticed that it shrinks a lot!  I was rather disappointed.  It also would not harden completely, and came up after taking sand paper to it.  Maybe I got a bad bottle. :(

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:41 PM
I'm curious- what's a CAD line?
  • Member since
    October, 2004
  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:57 PM

 CAD stands for computer animated drawing. Like those you see when the old PBS Battlefield show would come on. The mistake was the lines were mistaken as hull plating and recessed pretty deeply into the hull. If you look at the pic the apparent hull plates are the issue.

 Those lines that look like recessed plates  are not supposed to be there. Pretty major goof on such a nice and expensive model.  I just saw that Academy has a fix for the suspension goof on their  Grant and Lee releases. Maybe there is still hope.

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Sunday, August 17, 2008 12:29 AM

I got the first part. I've got a floor full of bright young kids flogging Autodesk software in an ever tightening effort to make $.

But what happened? They used the digital files and the contour lines ended up in the dies, I guess?

It's a not uncommon thing. I served as a third party witness in a case where an architectural firm designed a big marble floor in a bank, drew half of it with the idea that the other half was a mirror image, but forgot to include that note. Went out to bid, guess what?

But why did Hasegawa get away with this? They otta be giving out replacement hulls, I'd think.

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, August 17, 2008 9:04 AM

I made that same comment in an earlier thread.  The CAD line problem is not a minor detail flaw found in every kit; it is a careless manufacturing defect.  Many of us agree that Hasegawa should have immediately corrected this problem prior to distribution instead of passing this major problem on to its customers.  That the company failed to do so shows me a tremendous lack of respect for its customer base, and I have resolved never to buy another Hasegawa product until they fix this problem (including for those of us who paid the exhorbitant price for this otherwise excellent kit).  That they repeated this mistake in the MUTSU kit is just a slap in the face.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:52 PM

Well I can sort of understand why they didn't catch it at the outset, I guess. Like everything, including the Toyota Prius which is built in China, never mind protestations of war crimes, Hase no doubt subcontracted/subcontracted the kit and it may very well be being cast in Indonesia.

But still, you all better say never again.

  • Member since
    October, 2004
  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:58 PM
 The only real salt in the wound was when they released the Limited edition Sister Ship Mutsu,  with the same faults.  Then of corse Fujimi released the Kongo it is very nice but also very pricey. No Cad lines though.
  • Member since
    July, 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Monday, August 18, 2008 12:14 PM

All kits have errors. Some of it is compromise between what can be molded and what looks good. Some of it is just items that get overlooked. No doubt they thought the lines looked cool and most modelers did too, until they checked photos and saw that they were not there on the real ships. At this point, they approved the tooling for the hull and it is unlikely that they will change it. Way too exspensive for a part that size.

 I can't speak to this manufactures checking process, but this typically happens when the engineering team and toolmakers are not familiar with the subject. On a CAD drawing, those lines are readily visiable as they define the geometry of the hull. So it is possible that until the test shots of the hull were made, no one noticed that they were in the final part.

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, August 18, 2008 1:00 PM

Timothy,

Again, all models contain flaws. That is not in dispute. But, there is a serious line to draw between those flaws that are attributable to limitations of the molding process and those that are willful or careless inaccuracies such as those CAD lines.  It was simply not impossible from a molding standpoint to erase those lines prior to casting.  Whoever had the responsibility to check failed in that responsibility; there is no justification for such a mistake.  Whether they look cool or not is irrelevant, whatever the design team might believe.

However, I love the kit otherwise! The parts fit is exceptional; except for the CAD line fiasco, the overall detail is exquisite!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    April, 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Monday, August 18, 2008 4:05 PM
 sfcmac wrote:

 CAD stands for computer animated drawing.

 

Actually, in this case it means computer aided drafting or computer aided design.

 

  • Member since
    July, 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Monday, August 18, 2008 4:11 PM

Bill, I'm not sure why you feel the need to direct that towards me? What I wrote is my take on what might have happened. I don't believe I am presenting some radical viewpoint. Just a little insight into a common problem with all MFG's. Not justifying it or excusing it. Only the MFG can answer for why it was not fixed prior to release.

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    October, 2004
  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Monday, August 18, 2008 4:13 PM
 Thanx for the update I can't keep track of the acroynyms after being in the Army. I first thought of Commander Air Defense. Laugh [(-D] Feels like de ja vous doesn't it?
  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Monday, August 18, 2008 4:36 PM

Yup, all over again. Chuck is correct plus there is CADD which incorporates both.

Sometime there ought be a thread about errors people encounter that are beyond debate. I'd find it really helpful.

And it sounds like there's a market for resin Nagato hulls, maybe. Except it's a big beast.

 

BC

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, August 18, 2008 5:03 PM

Timothy,

I did not mean anything negative towards you or your ideas.  I directed my comments to you only because I was responding to your comments.  Please accept my apologies for any misunderstanding.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    July, 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Monday, August 18, 2008 7:40 PM

Roger that Bill, no problem then. In this case I can only guess as to what happened here. I have some personal experience with other companies. For the record, I think the Nagato is a really nice kit. But that one flaw is a killer. Mistakes like that used to be common in plastic. There are a lot of kits out there that still have the dreaded Aztec stair where there should have been inclined stairs. Or raised deck markings on a flight deck that are better represented by decals. To build this one, advanced modelers will have to overcome a difficult problem. I hope someone takes the time to document their fixes so all can learn from them. I don't think it's wrong to point out the flaws in a kit, but if you do, try to offer a solution. I am very curious how this one will work. So keep us informed on how it works out.

Oh and CAD is Computer Aided Drafting or Design. Originally it was Drafting as early CAD was little more than a drawing tool. Later it evolved into Design as the software became more powerful and 3D came into it's own. CADD is Computer Aided Drafting AND Design.

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, August 18, 2008 8:01 PM

Timothy,

I firmly agree that we should offer solutions to our criticisms, hence this thread.  In another and earlier thread concerning these CAD lines, I had mentioned that I was painstakingly filling each CAD line with thin lines of Squadron putty, rolled and applied inside each line.  Gsharris began this thread with another solution available at Home Depot, something called Porc-a-Fix.  I have since shifted my efforts to that. Still another contributor, qmeister, recommended correction fluid.

So far, I am getting these lines filled and sanded smooth.  But, it is very difficult for my arthritic hands!  I'd rather not have to do this.  Yet, given the exceptional detail of the rest of the kit, I feel that it is worth the effort.

Bill Morrison

 

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:25 AM
I have been reading all of these ideas very carefully to determine which fix will be easiest, cheapest, and most effective.  The 'whiteout' solution is pretty intriguing!  If it works, it could be sold to modellers at a hugely inflated price and call it 'CADbegone,' or somesuch!  In the meantime, I have 'Nagato' on the back shelf waiting for me to finish off a number of other projects first (like 'Atago' and 'Kongo!').....
  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:45 AM

Nagato is my current diversion from the Soleil Royal.  Basically, I work for several days on the sailing ship, then fill and sand a few CAD lines.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November, 2004
  • From: Tyrone Georgia USA
Posted by gsharris on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:08 PM

Gentlemen,

My intent in starting this thread was to present the fix to the Nagato CAD line problem and see how others have solved this situation. I did not intend to continue the controversy of why the lines are there.

To Mr. Morrison, if your hands are in pain from rolling putty filler try brushing on the Porc-a-fix and pulling the lines away from the hull. Porc-a-fix is intended to be sanded and responds very well to wet sanding. Just filling in the lines is time consuming and leaves you with sanding two different materials that respond differently. I used a full bottle on my Nagato and was able to sand out the CAD lines without touching the hull.

One person did not have good results with Porc-a-fix and he may have had a bottle from a bad batch or the Porc-a-fix may have been exposed to the air. Even with the cap tightly screwed to the bottle Porc-a-fix will turn into a thick mess when the Naptha vehicle evaporates.

The idea of using correction fluid might work but will take time to fill each line. Porc-a-fix is intended to be brushed on (thus the brush in the bottle cap) and fill in scratches and lines on porcelin products just like the lines on the Nagato and it worked for me.

I am building the HMCS Snowberry and using Porc-a-fix to fill the gaps between the four hull sections of the ship and Porc-a-fix works better than putty.

Any more ideas that have been used with satisfactory results?

Scott Harris

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:05 PM

gsharris,

I have already given up on filling the CAD lines with putty and have shifted to Porc-a-Fix.  It works much better!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:10 PM
Sounds like a good product. I'm thinkin' it's "Porse-a-fix", not "Pork-a-fix", the latter sounds like a dry rub! I'll try it too.
  • Member since
    November, 2004
  • From: Tyrone Georgia USA
Posted by gsharris on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:32 PM

To Mr. Morrison,

I would be interested in how you applied Porc-a-fix, any problems you had with the glaze, how you resolved the problems, your satisfaction with the end result and your overall satisfaction with Porc-a-fix.

To bondoman,

The product is called Porc-a-fix with the Porc standing for porcelain and is a "porcelain touch-up glaze to repair chips, cracks and scratches in porcelain fixtures, appliances and tile." It also works on plastic.

Scott Harris

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 5:58 PM

Will get some on my next trip to Home Depot. My favorite hobby shop does not carry it (Michaels Craft store). Just a word of warning..stuff is nasty! use your repirator and ventilate properly. From the MSDS sheet (cant help it, been a bench scientist for decades):

"PRODUCT CLASS: Vinyl Toluene Alkyd " ---  Toluene is the key one here, a nasty organic volatile

very flammable, careful in the wintertime if you live in a dry area and do your work indoors:

"Vapors may be ignited by static electricity or sparks."

PRIMARY ROUTE(S) OF ENTRY: DERMAL, INHALATION

-- means we modellers are at the place of contact with the substance toxic effects

VAPOR DENSITY: HEAVIER THAN AIR

-- this one always raised a red flag to me, if you have toddlers in the house.

RESPIRATORY PROTECTION - If TLV or PEL of product or any component is exceeded; a NIOSH MSHA approved air supplied;respirator is advised.

VENTILATION - Ventilation of sufficient volume and pattern should be provided to keep air contaminant concentrations below values in Section II.

PROTECTIVE GLOVES - Required, rubber or neoprene to prevent skin contact.

EYE PROTECTION - Use safety eyewear including splash guards or side shields.

---

I am still getting it of course, but use it wisely! :)

 

 

 

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