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Recommendations - HMS Victory?

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  • Member since
    May 2007
  • From: Atlanta, Georgia
Recommendations - HMS Victory?
Posted by RTimmer on Saturday, August 30, 2008 1:31 PM

Hi All,

There seem to be two readily available plastic kits for the HMS Victory, one is the Airfix (1/100) and one is the Revell Germany (1/225).  How are either of these kits, or should I be looking for an OOP kit that might be available on eBay?

Thanks!

Cheers, Rick

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Saturday, August 30, 2008 3:39 PM

Hello Rick, are you referring to the Airfix 1:180 or the Heller/Airfix 1:100, because  although the smaller Airfix may be considered in relation to the Revell Victory offering, the Airfix (Heller) 1:100, which I don't think is in current production, but crops up on the web from time to time, doesn't bear reasonable comparison with the other two.

In my opinion the 1:100 version is perhaps the finest plastic sailing warship model that has been produced, and is a better reproduction than many of the equivalent plank on bulkhead versions available, with the exception of the Caldercraft Victory (1:72) made by Jotika.

  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Weymouth, Dorset, UK
Posted by chris hall on Saturday, August 30, 2008 4:09 PM

Athough not currently in production, the Heller/ Airfix 1/100 Victory is easy to find. One of my LHSs has two of each. If you get the choice, buy the Airfix boxing. It's the same price as the Heller kit, but includes £24-worth of useful Humbrol enamels in proper tinlets.

It is not a minor undertaking, however, and if you've not built a model sailing ship recewntly, I'd start off with the Airfix 1/180 kit, which is very much simpler to build, but still looks good when finished, and only costs about 1/4 the price of the large kit.

Cheers,

Chris.

Cute and cuddly, boys, cute and cuddly!
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, September 1, 2008 10:56 AM

There is also another consideration . . . the 1/100 scale kit represents the Victory as she appeared at Trafalgar and before, without the elaborate entry port that was added after Trafalgar.  Both the 1/180 Airfix kit and the smaller Revell kit include the entry port, representing the ship as she appears today.  And, I agree with the assessment of the 1/100 kit . . . it is one of the finest plastic ship models ever manufactured!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2007
  • From: Atlanta, Georgia
Posted by RTimmer on Monday, September 1, 2008 11:22 AM

Thanks to all for your replies and helpful advice.

Bill - Would it be possible to modify the airfix 1/180 kit to remove the entry port you mention?

Again, everyone's feedback much appreciate!

Cheers, Rick

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, September 1, 2008 11:57 AM

The precise configuration of the Victory at Trafalgar is a complex matter, with no definitive answer.  I wouldn't be comfortable asserting simply that the two smaller kits represent her at a later date than the big Heller one does.

Over the past thirty years I've brought up the question of the entry ports several times in various places.  She almost certainly had them (in a considerably more elaborate form than the current versions) when she was built.  Several paintings made shortly before and after Trafalgar don't show them - most notably the enormous oil by J.M.W. Turner in the National Maritime Museum ( http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson/viewObject.cfm?ID=BHC0565 ).  They're also absent from a contemporary model in the same museum ( http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson/viewObject.cfm?ID=SLR0513 ), that model having been (apparently) built after the ship's 1803 refit.  And they don't appear in any photographs of her prior to her restoration of the 1920s.

None of that, however, is absolutely definitive.  Turner was a great artist, but his understanding of technical nautical details seems to have been pretty hazy at times.  It's known that he went on board the Victory shortly after the battle and made sketches (some of which have survived), but he didn't finish the big painting till 1822.  It's entirely possible, I suppose, that he paid another visit to her during the intervening 17 years and, without knowing that he was doing it, mixed up some details that had been changed.  Or he might have simply overlooked the entry ports completely, and made an outright mistake; artistic types have been known to do that sort of thing.

The ship got a great deal of attention, from people who know far more about her than I do, during her most recent restoration (in the years leading up to the bicentennial of the battle).  They left the entry ports intact.  The entry ports appear in every reputable set of plans for the ship I've ever encountered - including those by Basil Lavis, George Campbell, and John McKay.  I have, in fact, never read anything about the presence or absence, or addition or removal, of the entry ports in any of the published sources about her.  I have to say, as a matter of fact, that prior to reading Warshipguy's post I was under the impression that the Heller designers, J.M.W. Turner, and I were the only people on the planet who thought the entry ports might not have been there.  (I've noted that several modelers taking part in other web forums have asserted pretty emphatically that they think the entry ports were there in 1805 - but none of those folks has explained why he thinks so.)  I'd certainly be receptive to any further evidence.  I really wish Mr. Goodwin, or somebody else connected with the most recent research project, would address this question and tell us definitively what the evidence on both sides of it is.

In any case, the entry ports are only one of the problems confronting the modeler trying to reconstruct the Victory's 1805 appearance.  It's now pretty widely accepted, I think, that in 1805 she had shoulder-high bulwarks around her forecastle deck.  One of Turner's sketches shows a huge, bulky railing, with a good-sized swivel gun mounted on it, at the break of the poop.  The contemporary model in the NMM shows similarly clumsy, open rails all around the forecastle and poop, somewhat different decorations on the transom, and a conspicuously different bow structure (with an additional knee - which I haven't seen depicted anywhere else).  And the number of gunports on the model also doesn't match the ship's current configuration.

I don't think anybody will ever figure out exactly what she looked like in 1805.  For the vast majority of onlookers, the Heller, Airfix, and Revell kits probably come close enough.  (I continue to think there's something wrong with the shape of the smaller Airfix kit's bow - but that's another story.)  I certainly agree that the big Heller kit (sometimes sold in an Airfix box) is one of the finest plastic sailing ship kits ever.  And I most emphatically agree that it's not a good project for newcomers to this part of the hobby.  But having said that dozens, if not hundreds, of times during the thirty years it's been on the market, and having been ignored every time, I won't bother pursuing that point.

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Monday, September 1, 2008 2:38 PM

I did write to Peter Goodwin last year seeking clarification of the entry port question, but did not receive the courtesy of a reply, whether this was because he is simply too busy to bother with the likes of me, or whether he doesn't want to commit himself I don't know.

However, in his book The ships of Trafalgar Peter Goodwin shows sheer drawings by himself of Victory in her 1765 and 1805 conditions, both with entry ports but with the style differences noted.

What inference one should put on this is open to argument but it would suggest he believes she had them in 1805.

Interestingly he shows the 100 gun ship Brittania without entry ports, but the Royal Sovereign with them.

I do know that a copy of the sheer drawing dated 6th June 1759 included with Arthur Bugler's book HMS Victory Building, restoration and repair shows the entry port, and many of the familiar names who have written on the subject - Lavery, Carr- Laughton, and Fox, in addition to those mentioned by John Tilley, seem to think that British First rates had Entry ports.

How much there is of one ‘authority' following on with the thoughts of another is open to debate, but like John Tilley  I too cannot find any specific reference to the Entry  ports of Victory in contemporary references; such as repair, replacement, battle damage etc; which could mean she didn't have them or that they were commonplace, not worthy of mention.

There is one reference in The Trafalgar Companion by Mark Adkin, to Arthur Devis clambering thro' the Entry port in December 1805 whilst Victory lay at anchor in the Solent, but this is not backed up by a specific reference to a source document.

I am one of those people who happen to believe that on the balance of probability she had them, all the ordnance records indicate that she carried (28) twenty-four pounders on her Middle deck which supports the existence of an Entry port.

 In relation to modelling The Heller Victory for me it was too much to resist modifying her to incorporate those entry ports and the delightful little canopy, so enjoy your Heller Victory in whatever configuration you model her, the evidence is not conclusive either way, and the Victory enigma goes on.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, September 1, 2008 3:10 PM

John Tilley is absolutely correct in stating that making such statements as completely factual is a real stretch.  The evidence is sketchy and one may certainly go either way with as much credibility as anyone else.   

In addition to the painting referenced by John, in the book by Andrew Lambert titled "War at Sea in the Age of Sail," there is another painting on page 132 allegedly depicting HMS Victory as Admiral Lord Hood's flagship in 1793 clearly showing no entry port, at least on the port side.  The caption credits the painting as either painted by or provided by Monamy Swaine.  In other paintings, artists unknown, found in the Presidio Press abridged version of Mahan's Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1805, there are several paintings of HMS Victory at Trafalgar without entry ports on either side.

Clearly, the credibility of the artists needs to be considered.  Did the artists paint from actually seeing the Victory in this condition? Or, are they painting from written accounts, personal descriptions, or by imagination?  My personal belief is that, based on the number of paintings and drawings of the ship that I have seen over the years, it is entirely possible that Victory did not carry the elaborate entry ports found on the 1/180 kit and the Revell kit, at least until after Trafalgar. As John always acknowledges, though, I could be wrong.

By the way, that painting of her allegedly in 1793 has an interesting paint scheme that might be worth modelling!

Bill Morrison 

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Monday, September 1, 2008 6:26 PM

"By the way, that painting of her allegedly in 1793 has an interesting paint scheme that might be worth modelling!"

I chose to back date my Victory build to 1765 that had a similar scheme,it's been challenging to say the least, but coming along nicely.

Hows that Soliel Royal coming along Bill?

Michael

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, September 1, 2008 7:00 PM

The Soleil Royal is coming along slowly but surely.  I decided to trim off those belaying pins and sand down the roughrailings.  I found ejector pin marks that I had overlooked and am filling those as well.  I will post pictures very soon now.  Thanks for asking!!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 2:11 AM

The absence of any comment about those entry ports in any of the well-known published works about the Victory really is puzzling.  It's occurred to me that what we may be seeing here is another example of the kind of thing that happened in the case of the forecastle bulwarks.  Mr. Bugler figured out, way back in the 1920s or thereabouts, that they'd been raised to shoulder height during the ship's last refit before Trafalgar.  Dr. Anderson, who was in charge of the actual restoration, found out about that (as he acknowledged, quite handsomely and publicly, when Mr. Bugler's book was published a few years later) shortly after the carpenters had finished fabricating the knee-high, rail-and-timberhead arrangement that's on her forecastle today.  Having spent a great deal of money getting that work completed, Dr. Anderson was (quite understandably, in view of the scarcity of funds for such things) reluctant to order it torn apart and replaced.

I recall reading on another web forum that, during the extensive restoration leading up to the 2005 bicentennial, the canopies over the entry ports were replaced.  The ornamentation was done by a master carver, and the results are spectacular.  They were also, I'm sure, quite expensive.  If the people in charge of the project ordered those carvings early on in the proceedings, and subsequently found out that the entry ports were "wrong for 1805," would they have ordered such new, beautiful, expensive carved work to be junked?  I'm not at all sure that, had I been in their shoes, I would have been able to do such a thing. 

Generations of visitors have grown up with those entry ports - and they make a convenient means of getting the public on board the ship.  If the entry ports were removed and regular gunports were put in their places, some other means of public access, such as a pair of new ramps leading over the quarterdeck bulwarks, would have to be built.  Any such new arrangement would have to conform to laws respecting access for the disabled.  I'm not familiar with British legislation of that nature; I do know that in the United States the Americans With Disabilities Act has all sorts of complex implications for such projects.  (Regardless of what the laws say, I'm sure the ship's management wouldn't want to render her inaccessible to folks who can't climb vertical ladders, have to use walking sticks, etc.)  I certainly can see why the management would find the subject awkward - maybe even awkward enough to justify dodging inquiries about it.

All that, however, is pure speculation on my part, and may well be completely off the track.  I have the deepest possible respect for the people in charge of that ship, and I don't pretend to know whether those things were there in 1805 or not.  If I were (gawd forbid) building a model of the ship I'd try to dig up some more information about the point, and if I couldn't find any more than I have now, my inclination would be to leave the entry ports off.  But I wouldn't be at all sure I was right.

I also wonder about those extra knees in the bow on that old model.  I haven't seen any reference to them elsewhere, either.  Go to the ship's website (  http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 ) and wait for the ground-level picture of the bow to show up in the slide show.  Then compare it to this picture of the old model:  http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson/viewObject.cfm?ID=SLR0513&picture=3#content .  See what I mean?

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 4:21 PM

JTilley wrote, "If I were (gawd forbid) building a model of the ship I'd try to dig up some more information about the point, and if I couldn't find any more than I have now, my inclination would be to leave the entry ports off.  But I wouldn't be at all sure I was right."

And therein lies a major problem with sailing ship modelling . . . the lack of real documentation. Unlike modern ships, tanks, and aircraft, documentation showing details of specific ships of the 17th-19th centuries is spotty at best. Similarly, I wouldn't be at all sure I was right by leaving those ports on.  Therefore, I tend to go with the artistic record when one exists.  Paintings might not be accurate, but . . . Whistling [:-^]

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, August 4, 2009 7:20 PM

John,

I was reminiscing about this discussion today because I am working on a smaller HECEPOB kit of the Victory by Aeropiccola for my father.  Given that the kit is absolutely dreadful, I was looking for building options and I followed the links that you provided earlier in this thread.  The model of Victory looked terrific because it is out-of-the-ordinary!  For starters, she is not coppered below the waterline but is painted white.  The bulwarks on the forecastle and midships is also different than most.  And, there is no entry port. I believe I will modify this model to this configuration.

Concerning the entry port, I can't imagine the effects of heavy seas on that canopy!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by davidson3 on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 4:15 AM

Rick,

 Regardless of which kit you purchase, this is a pretty good website to visit for info on building Victory:

http://pete-coleman.com/forum/index.php

The main players are all based in the UK (yes I know there are many outside of the UK as well)and thus have access to the real deal, something many of us don't.  The advice/info is all based around the Heller 1/100 kit but I'm sure could be adjusted for the 1/180 model as well.

Register, introduce yourself and marvel at what can be done.

Bill

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