Question on Graf Zepplin AA guns

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/carrier/grafzeppelin/tech.html

well I am going to keep the cason mounted 150mm mounts and replace the 6 105mm mounts the 11 37mm mounts and the 7 20mm mounts with Aftermarket guns from Pacific Front Hobbies.

The planes will be replaced with some ME-109E's and JU-87's from the Skywave Luftwaffa set 1 which I'll order from Hobbylink Japan. and probably see if I can get hold of the Toms Model works Graf Zepplin detail set while I am at it.  The ME-109T and I think JU-87N are navalized versions of the ME-109E and the JU-87D.

Mikeym_us wrote:

The planes will be replaced with some ME-109E's and JU-87's from the Skywave Luftwaffa set 1 which I'll order from Hobbylink Japan. and probably see if I can get hold of the Toms Model works Graf Zepplin detail set while I am at it.  The ME-109T and I think JU-87N are navalized versions of the ME-109E and the JU-87D.

At one time White Ensign Models offered the navalized versions of both of those plus a Henschel (He123 ?).   Don't know if they are still in production, but John@WEM offers to put any item back into production with a firm pre-order of 25 units. 

EdGrune,

I was a little curious as to the Henschel you mentioned because I couldn't remember having ever seen any references to it - so I did some digging in my references and this is what I found (according to William Green and a couple of old raggedy Air Enthusiast mags)

There were 3 models of aircraft actually designed and built for service on the Graf Zepplin and all were eventually issued for operational use (albeit, not on the carrier)

Messerschmidt BF109T - Based on the BF109E with a 4 ft longer span, folding wings, spoilers and catapult/arrester gear - issued to a Luftwaffe unit and served on Helgoland Island until late 1943 or early 1944.

Junkers JU87C - Based on the JU87B - folding wings, jettisonable MLG and catapult/arresting gear - Issued to Luftwaffe units and used in Poland (possibly in France & the Low Countries)

Fiesler FI167A - Large two seat "multi purpose" biplane (observation/scout/dive/torpedo bomber) - 9 issued to a Luftwaffe unit on the Dutch coast - served there until early 1943, at which time they were sold to Romania

Apparently there were plans to navalize the JU87D for use as a torpedo bomber, but that never got past the design stage. 

qmiester wrote:

EdGrune, I was a little curious as to the Henschel you mentioned because I couldn't remember having ever seen any references to it - so I did some digging in my references and this is what I found (according to William Green and a couple of old raggedy Air Enthusiast mags) There were 3 models of aircraft actually designed and built for service on the Graf Zepplin and all were eventually issued for operational use (albeit, not on the carrier) Messerschmidt BF109T - Based on the BF109E with a 4 ft longer span, folding wings, spoilers and catapult/arrester gear - issued to a Luftwaffe unit and served on Helgoland Island until late 1943 or early 1944. Junkers JU87C - Based on the JU87B - folding wings, jettisonable MLG and catapult/arresting gear - Issued to Luftwaffe units and used in Poland (possibly in France & the Low Countries) Fiesler FI167A - Large two seat "multi purpose" biplane (observation/scout/dive/torpedo bomber) - 9 issued to a Luftwaffe unit on the Dutch coast - served there until early 1943, at which time they were sold to Romania Apparently there were plans to navalize the JU87D for use as a torpedo bomber, but that never got past the design stage.

The JU87D was produced the JU87G wasn't. The JU87G was supposed to be the Navalised version of the JU87D. PitRoad/Skywave also makes a Luftwaffa set that includes the ME109E and the JU87D/G. I also ordered these to replace the kit guns.

Oh And I ordered 2 sets of PitRoads LuftWaffa Set 1 from HLJ.

 German 20mm Quad AA Guns(WSW 1:700) 
German 37mm C/30 Twin AA Guns(WSW 1:700) 
German Twin 10.5cm SKC/33 Guns (Niko 1:700 resin)

Odd thing is that KriegsMarine puts the number of 20mm guns at 28 which should mean 7 Quad 20mm's but the kit (Revell) only has 6. But it was dead on number wise with the 105mm mounts and the 37mm mounts.

15 cm  SK L/50:	16
10,5 cm L/50:	12
3,7 cm L/83 C/30:	22
2 cm MG L/65:	28

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/carrier/grafzeppelin/tech.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-Kriegsmarine-Ship-Graf-Zeppelin-Model-Photo-Book_W0QQitemZ360085955436QQihZ023QQcategoryZ2590QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Looks like it would answer most GZ questions  

 

Had the Graf Zeppelin ever seen service, I do wonder how long the 150mm mounts would have lasted. Presumably she would have had at least one Prinz Eugen or larger-sized escort, and successful aircraft carrier experience shows that there are much more valuable ways of using crew and displacement than medium-calibre artillery, especially if optimised for surface combat, and not AA, use. I reckon they'd have been landed at first refit, if they ever made it to sea at all.

Successful WW2 carrier design shows that the way to go is multiple radar-directed 40mm AAA mounts, and that's the way I'd go. And yes, ditch the catapult launch dollies. Imagine how much fun they'd have been for the cat crews, and how much they'd have speeded up launch cycles - not!

The other addition I'd make is a couple of state-of-the-art air search and height-finding radars. But the whole thing is a bit hypothetical, since it's difficult to see Bomber Command and the Home Fleet ever allowing the ship to make it through the Skaggerak, let alone into the North Atlantic. And what's the point of a carrier which you can only use in the Baltic?

Cheers,

Chris.

 

Uhu wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-Kriegsmarine-Ship-Graf-Zeppelin-Model-Photo-Book_W0QQitemZ360085955436QQihZ023QQcategoryZ2590QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Looks like it would answer most GZ questions

Moduni also carries the same book

http://www.moduni.com/product_info.php/products_id/1102127

qmiester wrote:

EdGrune, I was a little curious as to the Henschel you mentioned because I couldn't remember having ever seen any references to it - so I did some digging in my references and this is what I found (according to William Green and a couple of old raggedy Air Enthusiast mags) <<SNIP>> Fiesler FI167A - Large two seat "multi purpose" biplane (observation/scout/dive/torpedo bomber) - 9 issued to a Luftwaffe unit on the Dutch coast - served there until early 1943, at which time they were sold to Romania

It was the Fiesler.   I never claimed to be a wing nut.  Also see the question mark on the response.

Got my Luftwaffa aircraft in a couple days ago and they look pretty nice with the added accessories that come with them. And the set includes 4 HE-111's which have torpedos. And there is a FW-190A as well. I wonder what the Zeppelin would look like with navalized FW-190s? And I got my guns in the 20mm guns are well molded and are leaps beyond the kit supplied 20mm guns. The 37mm and 105mm guns are also well molded as well though I'll need to get another set of both to finish up the gun sets. And I picked up the Toms Modelworks Graf Zeppelin PE set and it should be here Wednesday.