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Most historically significant naval battles???

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  • Member since
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Most historically significant naval battles???
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 14, 2008 7:07 PM

...in each of the following eras:

1) Ancient (BC to 999 AD)

2) Medival (1,000 AD to 1659 AD)

3) Age of Revolution (18th Century)

4) Early Industrial (19th Century)

5) Modern (20th Century)

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:06 PM

1. Battle of Salamis (Greeks defeat Persians)

2. Battle of Gravelines(defeat of the Spanish Armada)

3. Battle of Trafalgar or the Battle of the Chesapeake (Battle of the Capes)  TIE

4. Battle of Hampton Roads  (Monitor vs. Virginia)

5. Battle of Midway (turning point in the Pacific)

As far as Western history goes at least. These are the ones that stick in my head.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Posted by squeakie on Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:17 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:

...in each of the following eras:

1) Ancient (BC to 999 AD)

2) Medival (1,000 AD to 1659 AD)

3) Age of Revolution (18th Century)

4) Early Industrial (19th Century)

5) Modern (20th Century)

* Ancient.....I think it's the battle off of the Greece involving Xerxes and the Greeks. I could get anything definite on this as my ex wife is mad at me, and I knew she was the cook on one of their ships.

* Medival.....the first thing that comes to mind is the Spanish Armada verses England

* Age Of Revolution.....I think it's a tossup between Russia and Sweden (Peter The Great), and Neson at Waterloo.

* Early Industrial.....The Battle between the Ironclads

* 20th century......divide this into two eras:

     a. WWI..... the battle of Jutland with the introduction of submarine warefare right behind it

     B. WWII.... divide this into three major battles in the Pacific:

           1. an almost unknown battle in the South Pacific that gave the Allies breathing room that gave the Allies some breathing even though it was a victory for the Japanese in 1942. I think it's known as The Battle Of The South Java Sea.

           2. The Savo Island Straits. This was (and still is) one of the most horrific battles ever known to madern naval warefare, and was nothing but a battle of attrition. But most importantly it was the battle that stopped the Japanese advance in the Pacific. It was also the battle that started the "retraining" of the way we fought naval battles. There's a reason it's called "Iron Bottom Sound."

           3. The most commonly known battle of the three is Midway. If we'd have lost Midway it'd been all over.  

gary

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: Jerome, Idaho, U.S.A.
Posted by crackers on Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:50 PM

  My pick for the most decisive naval battle, would be the Battle of Lepanto, fought on October 7, 1571 when a galley fleet of the Holy League, a coalition of the Republics of Venice, Genoa, the Papacy, Duchy of Savoy, Spain, and the Knights Hospitaler, decisively defeated a fleet of Ottoman Turkish war galleys on the Gulf of Patras off Western Greece.

   This victory prevented the Ottoman advancement into western Europe and the Mediterranean. Had the Turks won, the history of Europe would have been far different today.

     Montani semper liberi         Happy modeling to all and everyone of you.

                                         Crackers, Jerome, Idaho

Anthony V. Santos

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:51 PM
 squeakie wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:

...in each of the following eras:

1) Ancient (BC to 999 AD)

2) Medival (1,000 AD to 1659 AD)

3) Age of Revolution (18th Century)

4) Early Industrial (19th Century)

5) Modern (20th Century)

* Ancient.....I think it's the battle off of the Greece involving Xerxes and the Greeks. I could get anything definite on this as my ex wife is mad at me, and I knew she was the cook on one of their ships.

* Medival.....the first thing that comes to mind is the Spanish Armada verses England

* Age Of Revolution.....I think it's a tossup between Russia and Sweden (Peter The Great), and Neson at Waterloo.

* Early Industrial.....The Battle between the Ironclads

* 20th century......divide this into two eras:

     a. WWI..... the battle of Jutland with the introduction of submarine warefare right behind it

     B. WWII.... divide this into three major battles in the Pacific:

           1. an almost unknown battle in the South Pacific that gave the Allies breathing room that gave the Allies some breathing even though it was a victory for the Japanese in 1942. I think it's known as The Battle Of The South Java Sea.

           2. The Savo Island Straits. This was (and still is) one of the most horrific battles ever known to madern naval warefare, and was nothing but a battle of attrition. But most importantly it was the battle that stopped the Japanese advance in the Pacific. It was also the battle that started the "retraining" of the way we fought naval battles. There's a reason it's called "Iron Bottom Sound."

           3. The most commonly known battle of the three is Midway. If we'd have lost Midway it'd been all over.  

gary

1. an almost unknown battle in the South Pacific that gave the Allies breathing room that gave the Allies some breathing even though it was a victory for the Japanese in 1942. I think it's known as The Battle Of The South Java Sea.

Are you referring to "Coral Sea"?

           2. The Savo Island Straits. This was (and still is) one of the most horrific battles ever known to madern naval warefare, and was nothing but a battle of attrition. But most importantly it was the battle that stopped the Japanese advance in the Pacific. It was also the battle that started the "retraining" of the way we fought naval battles. There's a reason it's called "Iron Bottom Sound."

Wasn't this many engagements over the period of the Guadacanal campaign?

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  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:39 PM

Waterloo was a land battle and Lord Nelson wasn't there. 

This question is really up Professor Tilley's alley.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, September 14, 2008 11:39 PM

I do believe I'd rather stay out of this one.  My tendency is to think in terms of why a given event was and/or wasn't important (i.e., what happened as a result of it, what its long-term impact on history - if any - was, etc.).  Setting up ranked lists is harmless, interesting, thought-provoking fun, but I've found that it usually results in comparing apples and oranges. 

There's also a natural tendency for any of us to acquire our own personal "favorites," irrespective of the possibility that some other events we haven't studied so intensively may in fact have been more "important."  I'll cheerfully plead guilty to having spent a fair amount of time studying the Battle of the Chesapeake (aka Battle of the Capes - Sept. 5, 1781), and I think it can legitimately be described as one of the most decisive sea battles in history.  But I'd be uncomfortable trying to rank it higher or lower than any of several other actions that have already been mentioned in this thread.  (Was the Battle of the Chesapeake more important than the Battle of Leyte Gulf?  I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot pole.)

One aspect of military/naval history that I find interesting is the way the alleged importance of a given event, or for that matter a given historical character, seems to change as different generations analyze it.  In another Forum thread recently, the name of John Paul Jones came up several times.  Several generations of American students scarcely heard of him, his ships, or his exploits.  He really didn't get his ultra-prominent place among early American naval heroes until the early twentieth century, when, under the auspices of Theodore Roosevelt, his body was exhumed from its grave in Paris, brought back to the U.S., and entombed in the chapel of the Naval Academy.  Prior to that time people like Esek Hopkins, John Barry, John Glover, and John Manly figured just as prominently in naval histories of the Revolutionary War.  The image of JPJ wasn't exactly manufactured out of thin air; he was a skilled seaman and an outstandingly daring man.  But to my way of thinking he's largely of interest as a demonstration of how military institutions (the U.S. Navy in this case) use history to build up an "inspirational tradition," even if doing so entails playing fast and loose with the truth. 

There is, for example, no contemporary evidence whatsoever that JPJ ever actually said "I have not yet begun to fight."  And it could easily be argued that the action between the Bonhomme Richard and H.M.S. Serapis was a strategic blunder on JPJ's part.  From the moment the Serapis placed herself between the American squadron and the British convoy, it became to all intents and purposes impossible for the Americans to intercept the convoy before it made its way to safety.  The defeat of the Serapis cost JPJ his own ship and the lives of many of his crew - and brought to an abrupt end a commerce-raiding cruise that, had it continued for a few more weeks, might have done a great deal more damage to the British economy.  The "victory" brought JPJ's combat career under the American flag to an end.  Small wonder that the British government treated the captain of the Serapis as a hero. 

On the other hand, it deserves to be noted that reputable historians are capable of figuring out that they've missed important events.  The Cambridge Companion to Military History contains a list of the ten most important battles of all time.  I can't remember all of them, but one is the Battle of Khalkin-Gol - which, I suspect, most Americans have never heard of.  It was a huge fight between the Soviet and Imperial Japanese Armies in Mongolia in the fall of 1939 - almost at the same time as the German assault on Poland.  The Soviets won decisively, largely because of their more skillful use of armor and airpower.  The Japanese high command had, up to that time, been considering two possible approaches to the problem of acquiring natural resources to support its ongoing campaign in China:  the "northern option" against the Russians and the "southern option" against the British, French, Dutch, and Americans.  Khalkin-Gol established that the "northern option" wouldn't work.  It thereby led the Japanese to commit themselves to the "southern option," with, of course, disastrous results.

Later research establishes with disturbing frequency that battles seen as "decisive" at the time actually weren't.  Postwar study of German archives made it pretty clear that, for instance, the famous "Dambuster" raids didn't do nearly as much long-term damage to German industry as the British thought at the time.  One contrary example, though, jumps to mind - and is perhaps relevant to this thread.  The "Doolittle Raid" on Tokyo and other Japanese cities in April, 1942 was conceived as what might uncharitably be labeled a publicity stunt.  Everybody concerned acknowledged that those sixteen B-25s couldn't possibly do substantial damage to the Japanese war effort - and in the short term they didn't.  Research in Japanese documents later revealed, though, that the horror on the part of the Japanese high command at the revelation that the home islands could be bombed led directly to the decision to launch the Coral Sea and Midway campaigns.  (That's a point that one of my un-favorite WWII movies, "Midway," got right.)  American thinkers didn't know it at the time, but it appears now that the Doolittle Raid was a key moment of the war.

Ranking battles in 1-2-3 order, though....Thanks, but I think I'll pass.  

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Seattle, WA
Posted by Surface_Line on Monday, September 15, 2008 1:59 AM

And this brings up a subject that fascinates me - not asking about whether a sea battle was decisive, but for a given sea battle, asking "how did the opposing forces manage to meet, in the disposition that contributed to the eventual results, in the location, time, and sea conditions where they met?"  That's what I've always wanted to spend some time to study in more depth.

Yes, I realize this is slightly highjacking the original intent of this thread.  Bear with me for a minute.

Consider WWI, when wireless communications were young, and navigation was still the same as it had been for hundreds of years. 
First ship: <crackle/fizz/fizz>"I see large units 10 miles NNW<crackle>"   
Second ship: "Understand you see large units.  What is your position?<fizz/crackle>"
First ship: "(uh we haven't really had a good fix since we left port fifteen hours ago) My posit is ..."<crackle>
Think about it.  Whatever good is a sighting report, until the days of an absolute common navigation picture like Navy Tactical Data System (NTDS)?

How about the chase of Admiral Spee in the South Pacific in WWI or the Graf Spee in WWII.  Any of these included marking the last sighting report, and furthest-on circles on the charts, and best guesses for where to deploy the best hitters to take down the prey.  How lucky do you feel, Admiral?

Consider the Napoleanic navies, when fleets traveled along "highways" on  the seas - the standard paths to get from Point A to Point B were known and generally used in common.  But they didn't have to be used.  Of course, our mission in studying that period is to not be poisoned by the frigate mentality - single ship operations - that we read with all the zillions of delightful frigate captain historical novels by Forester, Kent, Pope, O'Brien, etc, etc.  The fleets needed to travel a bit more deliberately than the dashing frigate captain could afford to go individually.

Then there's Trafalgar.  The events of October 21, 1805 were actually the culmination of a series of fleet movements, where Nelson had been chasing the French Admiral Villeneuve, escaping from Nelson's blockade in Toulon in the Med in March, going across the Atlantic to Martinique off the coast of South America in May, returning to Spain in June, always with the fleets out of sight of each other.  There wasn't any radar here; no aircraft reconaissance.  If you look only at Oct 21, it's as limited of a picture as to look only at Mona Lisa's eye and not see the rest of the painting.

We know the story about the intel group that set the table for the US forces at Midway.  They allowed the few carriers to be set well, based on excellent analysis of radio traffic and a few observed ship movements.  But even after that, the aircraft had to be sent in just the right direction at just the right time to make contact with the ememy forces before running out of fuel on the return trip.  Was this luck or excellence?

To hold a potentially long story short, my feeling is that for any decisive battle, you can make a fairly interesting study of the approach to that battle, whether it is measured in months, weeks or days, and close the book with the first gunshot.  How much of the outcome was crafted by the commanders' skill, their standard operating procedures, their technology, how much was flukes driven by odd environmental factors (fog, contrary winds, etc), etc, etc, etc.

Rick

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  • From: Lewiston ID
Posted by reklein on Monday, September 15, 2008 9:13 AM
Back in the day ships looking for other ships on the large ocean,sailed in line abreast,maybe 8-10 miles apart. In theis way they could cover a lot of ground. Four ships could cover almost fifty miles of ocean. They then communicated by lights and /or flags/or semaphore.This of course is highly simplified but consider the possibilities.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 15, 2008 10:09 AM
 jtilley wrote:

I do believe I'd rather stay out of this one.  My tendency is to think in terms of why a given event was and/or wasn't important (i.e., what happened as a result of it, what its long-term impact on history - if any - was, etc.).  Setting up ranked lists is harmless, interesting, thought-provoking fun, but I've found that it usually results in comparing apples and oranges. 

There's also a natural tendency for any of us to acquire our own personal "favorites," irrespective of the possibility that some other events we haven't studied so intensively may in fact have been more "important."  I'll cheerfully plead guilty to having spent a fair amount of time studying the Battle of the Chesapeake (aka Battle of the Capes - Sept. 5, 1781), and I think it can legitimately be described as one of the most decisive sea battles in history.  But I'd be uncomfortable trying to rank it higher or lower than any of several other actions that have already been mentioned in this thread.  (Was the Battle of the Chesapeake more important than the Battle of Leyte Gulf?  I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot pole.)

One aspect of military/naval history that I find interesting is the way the alleged importance of a given event, or for that matter a given historical character, seems to change as different generations analyze it.  In another Forum thread recently, the name of John Paul Jones came up several times.  Several generations of American students scarcely heard of him, his ships, or his exploits.  He really didn't get his ultra-prominent place among early American naval heroes until the early twentieth century, when, under the auspices of Theodore Roosevelt, his body was exhumed from its grave in Paris, brought back to the U.S., and entombed in the chapel of the Naval Academy.  Prior to that time people like Esek Hopkins, John Barry, John Glover, and John Manly figured just as prominently in naval histories of the Revolutionary War.  The image of JPJ wasn't exactly manufactured out of thin air; he was a skilled seaman and an outstandingly daring man.  But to my way of thinking he's largely of interest as a demonstration of how military institutions (the U.S. Navy in this case) use history to build up an "inspirational tradition," even if doing so entails playing fast and loose with the truth. 

There is, for example, no contemporary evidence whatsoever that JPJ ever actually said "I have not yet begun to fight."  And it could easily be argued that the action between the Bonhomme Richard and H.M.S. Serapis was a strategic blunder on JPJ's part.  From the moment the Serapis placed herself between the American squadron and the British convoy, it became to all intents and purposes impossible for the Americans to intercept the convoy before it made its way to safety.  The defeat of the Serapis cost JPJ his own ship and the lives of many of his crew - and brought to an abrupt end a commerce-raiding cruise that, had it continued for a few more weeks, might have done a great deal more damage to the British economy.  The "victory" brought JPJ's combat career under the American flag to an end.  Small wonder that the British government treated the captain of the Serapis as a hero. 

On the other hand, it deserves to be noted that reputable historians are capable of figuring out that they've missed important events.  The Cambridge Companion to Military History contains a list of the ten most important battles of all time.  I can't remember all of them, but one is the Battle of Khalkin-Gol - which, I suspect, most Americans have never heard of.  It was a huge fight between the Soviet and Imperial Japanese Armies in Mongolia in the fall of 1939 - almost at the same time as the German assault on Poland.  The Soviets won decisively, largely because of their more skillful use of armor and airpower.  The Japanese high command had, up to that time, been considering two possible approaches to the problem of acquiring natural resources to support its ongoing campaign in China:  the "northern option" against the Russians and the "southern option" against the British, French, Dutch, and Americans.  Khalkin-Gol established that the "northern option" wouldn't work.  It thereby led the Japanese to commit themselves to the "southern option," with, of course, disastrous results.

Later research establishes with disturbing frequency that battles seen as "decisive" at the time actually weren't.  Postwar study of German archives made it pretty clear that, for instance, the famous "Dambuster" raids didn't do nearly as much long-term damage to German industry as the British thought at the time.  One contrary example, though, jumps to mind - and is perhaps relevant to this thread.  The "Doolittle Raid" on Tokyo and other Japanese cities in April, 1942 was conceived as what might uncharitably be labeled a publicity stunt.  Everybody concerned acknowledged that those sixteen B-25s couldn't possibly do substantial damage to the Japanese war effort - and in the short term they didn't.  Research in Japanese documents later revealed, though, that the horror on the part of the Japanese high command at the revelation that the home islands could be bombed led directly to the decision to launch the Coral Sea and Midway campaigns.  (That's a point that one of my un-favorite WWII movies, "Midway," got right.)  American thinkers didn't know it at the time, but it appears now that the Doolittle Raid was a key moment of the war.

Ranking battles in 1-2-3 order, though....Thanks, but I think I'll pass.  

Brilliant perspective, jtilley...even though you chose not to rank, your historical analysis is excellent...my two favorite point that you make are of the Russo-Japanese war in China in 1939---it was actually Zukhov's first major victory in the "World War"...And you are right, most folks in the Western world know nothing about it...it probably "forced" the Japanese to look towards the US for those strategic materials; thus one could argue that their defeat at the hands of the Soviets laid the seeds for Pearl Harbor...The other point is the Doolittle Raid's impact on the Japanese psyche...from what I have read, it DID prompt the Japanese to seek to push their military expansion further out than they were really capable of with their military resources at the time, and thus their first major defeats at the hands of the US... 
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 15, 2008 11:43 AM

I'm sorta surprised that noone has mentioned this one yet---this is from Wikipedia:

The Battle of Tsushima (Japanese: 対馬海戦, tsushima-kaisen, Russian: Цусимское сражение, Tsusimskoye srazheniye), commonly known as the "Sea of Japan Naval Battle" (Japanese: 日本海海戦, nihonkai-kaisen) in Japan and the "Battle of Tsushima Strait" elsewhere, was the last and most decisive sea battle of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905. It was fought on May 27-28, 1905 (May 14-15 in the Julian calendar then in use in Russia) in the Tsushima Strait. In this battle the Japanese fleet under Admiral Heihachiro Togo destroyed two-thirds of the Russian fleet under Admiral Zinovy Rozhestvensky. Historian Edmund Morris calls it the greatest naval battle since Trafalgar.[1] It was the largest naval engagement of the pre-dreadnought battleship era.

The Battle of Tsushima was the only sea battle in history in which steel battleships fought a decisive fleet action. In addition, much to the Russian Navy's credit, Admiral Rozhestvensky's battleship fleet conducted a voyage of over 18,000 nautical miles (33,000 km) to reach the Far East.

Prior to the Russo-Japanese War, countries constructed their battleships with mixed batteries of mainly 150 mm (6-inch), 203 mm (8-inch), 254 mm (10-inch) and 305 mm (12-inch) guns, with the intent that these battleships fight on the battle line in a close-quarter, decisive fleet action. The battle demonstrated that big guns with longer ranges were more advantageous during naval battles than mixed batteries of different sizes.

Admiral Togo on the bridge of MikasaNaval Ensign of the Empire of Japan

Belligerents
Naval Ensign of the Empire of Japan Imperial Japanese NavyNaval Ensign of Russia Imperial Russian Navy
Commanders
Heihachiro TogoZinovy Rozhestvensky #
Nikolai Nebogatov #
Strength
4 battleships
27 cruisers
destroyers and auxiliary vessels
8 battleships
3 coastal battleships
8 cruisers
9 destroyers
Casualties and losses
117 dead
583 injured
3 torpedo boats sunk
4,380 dead
5,917 captured
21 ships sunk (7 battleships)
7 captured
6 disarmed

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Posted by squeakie on Monday, September 15, 2008 12:41 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 squeakie wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:

...in each of the following eras:

1) Ancient (BC to 999 AD)

2) Medival (1,000 AD to 1659 AD)

3) Age of Revolution (18th Century)

4) Early Industrial (19th Century)

5) Modern (20th Century)

* Ancient.....I think it's the battle off of the Greece involving Xerxes and the Greeks. I could get anything definite on this as my ex wife is mad at me, and I knew she was the cook on one of their ships.

* Medival.....the first thing that comes to mind is the Spanish Armada verses England

* Age Of Revolution.....I think it's a tossup between Russia and Sweden (Peter The Great), and Neson at Waterloo.

* Early Industrial.....The Battle between the Ironclads

* 20th century......divide this into two eras:

     a. WWI..... the battle of Jutland with the introduction of submarine warefare right behind it

     B. WWII.... divide this into three major battles in the Pacific:

           1. an almost unknown battle in the South Pacific that gave the Allies breathing room that gave the Allies some breathing even though it was a victory for the Japanese in 1942. I think it's known as The Battle Of The South Java Sea.

           2. The Savo Island Straits. This was (and still is) one of the most horrific battles ever known to madern naval warefare, and was nothing but a battle of attrition. But most importantly it was the battle that stopped the Japanese advance in the Pacific. It was also the battle that started the "retraining" of the way we fought naval battles. There's a reason it's called "Iron Bottom Sound."

           3. The most commonly known battle of the three is Midway. If we'd have lost Midway it'd been all over.  

gary

1. an almost unknown battle in the South Pacific that gave the Allies breathing room that gave the Allies some breathing even though it was a victory for the Japanese in 1942. I think it's known as The Battle Of The South Java Sea.

Are you referring to "Coral Sea"?

           2. The Savo Island Straits. This was (and still is) one of the most horrific battles ever known to madern naval warefare, and was nothing but a battle of attrition. But most importantly it was the battle that stopped the Japanese advance in the Pacific. It was also the battle that started the "retraining" of the way we fought naval battles. There's a reason it's called "Iron Bottom Sound."

Wasn't this many engagements over the period of the Guadacanal campaign?

after I got off line last night I made a phone call to a close friend who happens to be a real naval historian. He said it was the Battle of the South Java Sea, and that it was a blood bath in every way. But what happened even though the Allies lost everything was that they also took out three or four troop transports that were fully loaded. These were bound for Southeast Asia. Giving the Allies a short few months of time to at least get an idea where they were headed. Otherwise (and with the fresh troop compliment) the Japanese may well have been able to invade India with the fall of Burma. Would have been really hard on "Vinegar Joe Stillwell."

    The battle for The Savo Straits was almost beyond comprehension! No room to manuver, and one side were regarded as the best night fighters (naval warefare) in history. We'd have lost Guadalcanal if we'd have lost that battle. There's a good read on this in the book titled "Destroyer." Most excerpts are from folks that were there (basicly survivors). I well remember the quote that said as soon as the search lights flashed on, they were instantly followed by 14" rounds! The whole idea is just hair raising. And all this while trying to manuver around all the rocks and very small islands in the straits. They're tougher than I'll ever be for sure. And you gotta remember this wasn't just one small skirmish, but many that actually lasted for many weeks.

gary

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Posted by bbrowniii on Monday, September 15, 2008 12:59 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:

...in each of the following eras:

5) Modern (20th Century)

Don't have time (or the knowledge) to address the others right now, but as for modern, I'd divide it into 'Early (WWI)', 'Middle (WWII)' and 'Late (Post-WWII)'  and my candidates would be:

Early: Battle of Jutland for reasons already stated...

Middle: Battle of the Atlantic - yes it was a series of battles, but if that battle was lost, so to was England (and probably Russia)

Late: not specifically a 'battle' but in my most recent edition of Naval History was the story of how two Egyptian patrol boats became the first warships to sink an enemy combatant (Israeli destroyer - I forget the name) using cruise missles ('Styx' cruise missles, acquired from the USSR) following the Six Day War (again - I think... Blush [:I])

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 15, 2008 2:06 PM
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:

...in each of the following eras:

5) Modern (20th Century)

Don't have time (or the knowledge) to address the others right now, but as for modern, I'd divide it into 'Early (WWI)', 'Middle (WWII)' and 'Late (Post-WWII)'  and my candidates would be:

Early: Battle of Jutland for reasons already stated...

Middle: Battle of the Atlantic - yes it was a series of battles, but if that battle was lost, so to was England (and probably Russia)

Late: not specifically a 'battle' but in my most recent edition of Naval History was the story of how two Egyptian patrol boats became the first warships to sink an enemy combatant (Israeli destroyer - I forget the name) using cruise missles ('Styx' cruise missles, acquired from the USSR) following the Six Day War (again - I think... Blush [:I])

Nice answer...as a matter of fact, the "Battle of the Atlantic" is generally recognized as the longest lasting campaign of WW2...
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Posted by bbrowniii on Monday, September 15, 2008 2:17 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:

...in each of the following eras:

5) Modern (20th Century)

Don't have time (or the knowledge) to address the others right now, but as for modern, I'd divide it into 'Early (WWI)', 'Middle (WWII)' and 'Late (Post-WWII)'  and my candidates would be:

Early: Battle of Jutland for reasons already stated...

Middle: Battle of the Atlantic - yes it was a series of battles, but if that battle was lost, so to was England (and probably Russia)

Late: not specifically a 'battle' but in my most recent edition of Naval History was the story of how two Egyptian patrol boats became the first warships to sink an enemy combatant (Israeli destroyer - I forget the name) using cruise missles ('Styx' cruise missles, acquired from the USSR) following the Six Day War (again - I think... Blush [:I])

Nice answer...as a matter of fact, the "Battle of the Atlantic" is generally recognized as the longest lasting campaign of WW2...

Yup, that it is.  When I get home, I'll also pull out that copy of Naval History to get some of the specifics regarding that cruise missle attack by the Egyptians....

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, September 15, 2008 2:28 PM

Well, I think in order for a battle to be historically significant, it has to demonstrate that the effects of the battle far outlasted the initial outcome.  With this in mind...

Ancient:  this is a toss up between the Batlle of Salamis, and the Battle of Actium.  Salamis saw the defeat of a much larger Persian (with Phoenician mercenaries) fleet, and a Greek fleet, primarily made up of Athenian galleys.  Its significance is that it indicated the beginning of the end of Eastern influence in the affairs of Europe, and a significant cultural, political and historical shift that might never have happened otherwise.  Much the same can be said for the Battle4 of Actium, as it marked the last major effort by the cultures of the East to wrest control of the Med from Rome, and also ensured the unification of the Roman Empire for the next several hundred years, with all that implies.

Medieval:  I think the Battle of Lepanto, while not strictly 'medieval' was certainly fought along medieval lines.  In this battle, the mighty Turkish Navy was pretty comprehensively destroyed by the combined efforts of Spain, France, the Pope, Austria, and a host of other European representatives of Christian Europe.  Once again, the outcome of this battle was not so much a simple victory over the Sultan, but ensured the security of Christian Europe and European dominance in the Med that remains to this day.

Age of Sail:  I'm going to throw out a screwball here, in that I nominate the Battle of The Gabbard in 1653 between the Dutch and the English fleets.  This battle is of enormous significance in that here, for the first time, a fleet of warships fought in a line-ahead formation.  The result of the English sailing instructions to form such a line not only caused a catastrophic defeat for the Dutch, but was pretty much locked in thereafter as the essential fleet fighting formation from that time until the end of warfare under sail.

Early Industrial:  The Battle of Tsushima, and I nominate this battle because it marks the beginning of the end of Western dominance of the world, and the beginning of the rise of powers in the East.  If Japan had lost this battle, it is quite likely there would never have been a Pearl Harbor, and possibly not a communist China either!

20th Century:  Overall, I think the Battle of Midway has to rank top of the list for historical significance here, as by its outcome largely hung the outcome of the Pacific War and all that implies.  By eviscerating the Japanese carrier fleet, the US Navy ensured that Japanese military expansion could no longer take place under aircover, and without superior aircover, it would just be a matter of time before the US would be able to roll up the Japanese throughout the Pacific (with a lot of hard fighting, granted!).  And the prime example of the Battle of Guadalcanal and the concurrent Battle for New Guinea showed that without the air superiority they had come to rely on, no longer could the Japanese Army be reliably supplied, supported or even transported, despite the best efforts of the Japanese surface fleet.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Monday, September 15, 2008 3:48 PM

I'm going to limit my comments to one time period because I'm only familiar enough with the 20th  century to make it worthwhile.

I see Pearl Harbor as the true turning point of the second World War, in both theaters, and  disagree with the comment that if we had lost the battle of Midway it would have been all over.

The axis in effect lost the war the moment they allowed the full weight of the United States' industrial capacity and population to enter the fray with a fire in the belly. Even if we had lost Midway, it would have at best delayed the outcome by a year or two. The new carriers were reaching the pacific by summer of 1943, by summer of 1945 even if we had lost midway we would have been pushing the japanese back pretty hard.

The outrage it  lit in the U.S. population in general gave us the motivation to not only defeat the axis, but changed the course of US Policy forever. Pearl Harbor merely officially legitimized a struggle that had started after the first world war and really entrenched itself with the Japanese invasion and occupation of parts of China.

It is one of those interesting "won the battle but lost the war" battles for the Japanese. 

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 15, 2008 3:57 PM
 Tracy White wrote:

I'm going to limit my comments to one time period because I'm only familiar enough with the 20th  century to make it worthwhile.

I see Pearl Harbor as the true turning point of the second World War, in both theaters, and  disagree with the comment that if we had lost the battle of Midway it would have been all over.

The axis in effect lost the war the moment they allowed the full weight of the United States' industrial capacity and population to enter the fray with a fire in the belly. Even if we had lost Midway, it would have at best delayed the outcome by a year or two. The new carriers were reaching the pacific by summer of 1943, by summer of 1945 even if we had lost midway we would have been pushing the japanese back pretty hard.

The outrage it  lit in the U.S. population in general gave us the motivation to not only defeat the axis, but changed the course of US Policy forever. Pearl Harbor merely officially legitimized a struggle that had started after the first world war and really entrenched itself with the Japanese invasion and occupation of parts of China.

It is one of those interesting "won the battle but lost the war" battles for the Japanese. 

I agree that if the tables had been turned and we lost our three carriers to maybe one of theirs that we would have still prevailed in the end, but it does offer up some chilling scenerios that would have probably tested American resolve and confidence to a far greater degree than it actually did...Winning Midway, IMO, gave the US the immeadiate confidence that we could, and would, win...A loss would maybe have said: we can win, but when are we gonna start?

As Churchill said of the war after Rommel's defeat at El Alamein: "This isn't the end, or even the begining of the end, but it is the end of the begining...".

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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Monday, September 15, 2008 7:19 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 Tracy White wrote:

I'm going to limit my comments to one time period because I'm only familiar enough with the 20th  century to make it worthwhile.

I see Pearl Harbor as the true turning point of the second World War, in both theaters, and  disagree with the comment that if we had lost the battle of Midway it would have been all over.

The axis in effect lost the war the moment they allowed the full weight of the United States' industrial capacity and population to enter the fray with a fire in the belly. Even if we had lost Midway, it would have at best delayed the outcome by a year or two. The new carriers were reaching the pacific by summer of 1943, by summer of 1945 even if we had lost midway we would have been pushing the japanese back pretty hard.

The outrage it  lit in the U.S. population in general gave us the motivation to not only defeat the axis, but changed the course of US Policy forever. Pearl Harbor merely officially legitimized a struggle that had started after the first world war and really entrenched itself with the Japanese invasion and occupation of parts of China.

It is one of those interesting "won the battle but lost the war" battles for the Japanese. 

I agree that if the tables had been turned and we lost our three carriers to maybe one of theirs that we would have still prevailed in the end, but it does offer up some chilling scenerios that would have probably tested American resolve and confidence to a far greater degree than it actually did...Winning Midway, IMO, gave the US the immeadiate confidence that we could, and would, win...A loss would maybe have said: we can win, but when are we gonna start?

I'm no naval historian, but I think I disagree with that sentiment.  I think that, had the US lost at Midway, and lost big - like you say three carriers to one of theirs, at the very least the US would have seriously considered a peace with Japan in an effort to focus on the 'main theatre' of the war in Europe.  Also consider that, without those carriers, for all intents and purposes the whole west coast of the US would have been wide open to Japanese attack, Australia would have been completely isolated, and may have fallen as well...

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by bbrowniii on Monday, September 15, 2008 7:26 PM
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:

...in each of the following eras:

5) Modern (20th Century)

Don't have time (or the knowledge) to address the others right now, but as for modern, I'd divide it into 'Early (WWI)', 'Middle (WWII)' and 'Late (Post-WWII)'  and my candidates would be:

Early: Battle of Jutland for reasons already stated...

Middle: Battle of the Atlantic - yes it was a series of battles, but if that battle was lost, so to was England (and probably Russia)

Late: not specifically a 'battle' but in my most recent edition of Naval History was the story of how two Egyptian patrol boats became the first warships to sink an enemy combatant (Israeli destroyer - I forget the name) using cruise missles ('Styx' cruise missles, acquired from the USSR) following the Six Day War (again - I think... Blush [:I])

Nice answer...as a matter of fact, the "Battle of the Atlantic" is generally recognized as the longest lasting campaign of WW2...

Yup, that it is.  When I get home, I'll also pull out that copy of Naval History to get some of the specifics regarding that cruise missle attack by the Egyptians....

The event to which I refer occurred on 21 October 1967, when the Israeli destroyer Eilat was attacked by two Egyptian patrol boats off the port of Said, on the Sinai coast.  The ship was hit by at least three Styx cruise missles and capsized and sank, killing 47 and wounding 91.

I consider this a very historically significant naval battle because, prior to this event, the US had largely abandoned development of cruise missles.  Following the attack, the Americans re-evaluated that decision and the US cruise missle program was reborn - with the result that today we have such marvels of modern technology as the Harpoon and the Tomahawk (and the Exocet for you French fans...)

PS The Styx is still in service in many developing nations, and its progeny, particularly the Chinese Silkworm, can be found in the hands of many nations, such as Iran and North Korea.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by bbrowniii on Monday, September 15, 2008 7:31 PM

OK, this conversation has gotten me thinkin' (DANGER! DANGER!!)...

So, I see that, for the modern era, many have selected the Battle of Midway.  I on the other hand selected the Battle of the Atlantic.  My question is (and, so I don't hijack the thread, maybe I'll also post it in a seperate thread): which would have been more catastrophic: a Japanese victory in the Pacific/Asia or a German victory in the Atlantic/Europe?  Obviously this expands the topic to way beyond the naval theater, but since it started here I guess it should continue here...

PS Manny, if you want me to post this as a seperate thread, no problemo.  Like I said, I am not trying to hijack your thread (although, technically it is your fault that I got to thinkin'...  if you hadn't started this whole thing in the first place...Big Smile [:D])

 

EDIT: In an effort not to divert the original topic, I think I will go ahead and re-post this question over in the Odds and Ends forum.  If it sparks your curiosity, come on over!!!

 

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 15, 2008 8:38 PM
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 Tracy White wrote:

I'm going to limit my comments to one time period because I'm only familiar enough with the 20th  century to make it worthwhile.

I see Pearl Harbor as the true turning point of the second World War, in both theaters, and  disagree with the comment that if we had lost the battle of Midway it would have been all over.

The axis in effect lost the war the moment they allowed the full weight of the United States' industrial capacity and population to enter the fray with a fire in the belly. Even if we had lost Midway, it would have at best delayed the outcome by a year or two. The new carriers were reaching the pacific by summer of 1943, by summer of 1945 even if we had lost midway we would have been pushing the japanese back pretty hard.

The outrage it  lit in the U.S. population in general gave us the motivation to not only defeat the axis, but changed the course of US Policy forever. Pearl Harbor merely officially legitimized a struggle that had started after the first world war and really entrenched itself with the Japanese invasion and occupation of parts of China.

It is one of those interesting "won the battle but lost the war" battles for the Japanese. 

I agree that if the tables had been turned and we lost our three carriers to maybe one of theirs that we would have still prevailed in the end, but it does offer up some chilling scenerios that would have probably tested American resolve and confidence to a far greater degree than it actually did...Winning Midway, IMO, gave the US the immeadiate confidence that we could, and would, win...A loss would maybe have said: we can win, but when are we gonna start?

I'm no naval historian, but I think I disagree with that sentiment.  I think that, had the US lost at Midway, and lost big - like you say three carriers to one of theirs, at the very least the US would have seriously considered a peace with Japan in an effort to focus on the 'main theatre' of the war in Europe.  Also consider that, without those carriers, for all intents and purposes the whole west coast of the US would have been wide open to Japanese attack, Australia would have been completely isolated, and may have fallen as well...

Interesting thesis, but I respectfully disagree...now Newt Gingrich has a "what if?" novel out that asks the question: "What if the japanese had humg around Pearl harbor and continued to launch strikes at Pearl harbor, and possibly found the American carriers and dealt with them?" I'm waiting for it to come out in paperback, but in the event, I think had America lost Midway there would be no way in Hell that the US Congress or its citizens would have accepted peace after Pearl Harbor...

I feel as though your thesis is flawed because as the Japanese got further from their original lines of communications they became much less effective, and they never made an ampibious assault of any size against serious oposition...when they made limited ones, such as at Wake, they got their lunch handed to them...Other assets would have come into play had we lost Midway...eg: US subs would have wreaked havoc on any fleet that sailed for Pearl or the West coast, as well as the other many naval and air assets the US possessed...Wasp, Saratoga, BB's, bombers, etc...In fact, the US decided very early on that the MAIN threat came from the Germans and that the European theatre would take priority, and it did...IMO, a Japanese victory at Midway would have been a serious blow, but only a temporary one...to think that he US would be sitting at a surrender table 6 months after Pearl borders on the incredible... 

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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Monday, September 15, 2008 9:09 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 Tracy White wrote:

I'm going to limit my comments to one time period because I'm only familiar enough with the 20th  century to make it worthwhile.

I see Pearl Harbor as the true turning point of the second World War, in both theaters, and  disagree with the comment that if we had lost the battle of Midway it would have been all over.

The axis in effect lost the war the moment they allowed the full weight of the United States' industrial capacity and population to enter the fray with a fire in the belly. Even if we had lost Midway, it would have at best delayed the outcome by a year or two. The new carriers were reaching the pacific by summer of 1943, by summer of 1945 even if we had lost midway we would have been pushing the japanese back pretty hard.

The outrage it  lit in the U.S. population in general gave us the motivation to not only defeat the axis, but changed the course of US Policy forever. Pearl Harbor merely officially legitimized a struggle that had started after the first world war and really entrenched itself with the Japanese invasion and occupation of parts of China.

It is one of those interesting "won the battle but lost the war" battles for the Japanese. 

I agree that if the tables had been turned and we lost our three carriers to maybe one of theirs that we would have still prevailed in the end, but it does offer up some chilling scenerios that would have probably tested American resolve and confidence to a far greater degree than it actually did...Winning Midway, IMO, gave the US the immeadiate confidence that we could, and would, win...A loss would maybe have said: we can win, but when are we gonna start?

I'm no naval historian, but I think I disagree with that sentiment.  I think that, had the US lost at Midway, and lost big - like you say three carriers to one of theirs, at the very least the US would have seriously considered a peace with Japan in an effort to focus on the 'main theatre' of the war in Europe.  Also consider that, without those carriers, for all intents and purposes the whole west coast of the US would have been wide open to Japanese attack, Australia would have been completely isolated, and may have fallen as well...

Interesting thesis, but I respectfully disagree...now Newt Gingrich has a "what if?" novel out that asks the question: "What if the japanese had humg around Pearl harbor and continued to launch strikes at Pearl harbor, and possibly found the American carriers and dealt with them?" I'm waiting for it to come out in paperback, but in the event, I think had America lost Midway there would be no way in Hell that the US Congress or its citizens would have accepted peace after Pearl Harbor...

I feel as though your thesis is flawed because as the Japanese got further from their original lines of communications they became much less effective, and they never made an ampibious assault of any size against serious oposition...when they made limited ones, such as at Wake, they got their lunch handed to them...Other assets would have come into play had we lost Midway...eg: US subs would have wreaked havoc on any fleet that sailed for Pearl or the West coast, as well as the other many naval and air assets the US possessed...Wasp, Saratoga, BB's, bombers, etc...In fact, the US decided very early on that the MAIN threat came from the Germans and that the European theatre would take priority, and it did...IMO, a Japanese victory at Midway would have been a serious blow, but only a temporary one...to think that he US would be sitting at a surrender table 6 months after Pearl borders on the incredible... 

I'm not suggesting that the US would have surrendered.  Far from it.  Instead I think the US might have sought (or been forced to seek) a peace with the Japanese if our carriers were wiped out at Midway.  Remember, one of the primary goals for the Japanese in taking Midway was to cut the supply lines to Australia.  This accomplished, and with the Aussie withering on the vine, the US would have found itself pretty much penned up in its own backyard, so to speak.  Sure, maybe, MAYBE, we could have held on long enough to rebuild a few carriers and rush them, with their attendant airwings (remember, if all the carriers were lost, so to were their birds and pilots) to Pearl.  By then who knows what else the Japanese may have been able to do.  You'd basically have Japanese carrier task forces roaming the central and eastern Pacific largely unopposed.

Hey, I know we can 'what if' this to death, but one of the reasons Midway is considered to be such a major victory is because of the potential consequences had it been a defeat...

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 15, 2008 9:25 PM
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 bbrowniii wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 Tracy White wrote:

I'm going to limit my comments to one time period because I'm only familiar enough with the 20th  century to make it worthwhile.

I see Pearl Harbor as the true turning point of the second World War, in both theaters, and  disagree with the comment that if we had lost the battle of Midway it would have been all over.

The axis in effect lost the war the moment they allowed the full weight of the United States' industrial capacity and population to enter the fray with a fire in the belly. Even if we had lost Midway, it would have at best delayed the outcome by a year or two. The new carriers were reaching the pacific by summer of 1943, by summer of 1945 even if we had lost midway we would have been pushing the japanese back pretty hard.

The outrage it  lit in the U.S. population in general gave us the motivation to not only defeat the axis, but changed the course of US Policy forever. Pearl Harbor merely officially legitimized a struggle that had started after the first world war and really entrenched itself with the Japanese invasion and occupation of parts of China.

It is one of those interesting "won the battle but lost the war" battles for the Japanese. 

I agree that if the tables had been turned and we lost our three carriers to maybe one of theirs that we would have still prevailed in the end, but it does offer up some chilling scenerios that would have probably tested American resolve and confidence to a far greater degree than it actually did...Winning Midway, IMO, gave the US the immeadiate confidence that we could, and would, win...A loss would maybe have said: we can win, but when are we gonna start?

I'm no naval historian, but I think I disagree with that sentiment.  I think that, had the US lost at Midway, and lost big - like you say three carriers to one of theirs, at the very least the US would have seriously considered a peace with Japan in an effort to focus on the 'main theatre' of the war in Europe.  Also consider that, without those carriers, for all intents and purposes the whole west coast of the US would have been wide open to Japanese attack, Australia would have been completely isolated, and may have fallen as well...

Interesting thesis, but I respectfully disagree...now Newt Gingrich has a "what if?" novel out that asks the question: "What if the japanese had humg around Pearl harbor and continued to launch strikes at Pearl harbor, and possibly found the American carriers and dealt with them?" I'm waiting for it to come out in paperback, but in the event, I think had America lost Midway there would be no way in Hell that the US Congress or its citizens would have accepted peace after Pearl Harbor...

I feel as though your thesis is flawed because as the Japanese got further from their original lines of communications they became much less effective, and they never made an ampibious assault of any size against serious oposition...when they made limited ones, such as at Wake, they got their lunch handed to them...Other assets would have come into play had we lost Midway...eg: US subs would have wreaked havoc on any fleet that sailed for Pearl or the West coast, as well as the other many naval and air assets the US possessed...Wasp, Saratoga, BB's, bombers, etc...In fact, the US decided very early on that the MAIN threat came from the Germans and that the European theatre would take priority, and it did...IMO, a Japanese victory at Midway would have been a serious blow, but only a temporary one...to think that he US would be sitting at a surrender table 6 months after Pearl borders on the incredible... 

I'm not suggesting that the US would have surrendered.  Far from it.  Instead I think the US might have sought (or been forced to seek) a peace with the Japanese if our carriers were wiped out at Midway.  Remember, one of the primary goals for the Japanese in taking Midway was to cut the supply lines to Australia.  This accomplished, and with the Aussie withering on the vine, the US would have found itself pretty much penned up in its own backyard, so to speak.  Sure, maybe, MAYBE, we could have held on long enough to rebuild a few carriers and rush them, with their attendant airwings (remember, if all the carriers were lost, so to were their birds and pilots) to Pearl.  By then who knows what else the Japanese may have been able to do.  You'd basically have Japanese carrier task forces roaming the central and eastern Pacific largely unopposed.

Hey, I know we can 'what if' this to death, but one of the reasons Midway is considered to be such a major victory is because of the potential consequences had it been a defeat...

We just have to agree to disagree on this one...Remember, that the US would still have had the Saratoga, Wasp and the Essex, and the Essex class carriers were begining to come on-line in 1942...

I don't think the US would have folded just because Australia was threathened...Look at how timid the Japanese were at Coral Sea...they actually won the tactical engagement but called off the invasion!!! The Japanese (contrary to popular belief) tended to be VERY catious when engaging w/ naval forces...this is seen throughout the war (eg: look at Leyte Gulf)...even at Pearl, a more daring commander would have continued to hammer Pearl Harbor and hunt the carriers down...

As far as all of the air crews being lost, that is pure speculation...when a Japanese ship went down there tended to be excessive of casualties, partly because of cultural beliefs and partly because of poor damage control and life-saving equipment...the US was much better at recovering downed aircrew and sailors...

I'd like to get other viewpoints on this interesting "what-if"...

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Posted by bbrowniii on Monday, September 15, 2008 10:23 PM

 Mansteins revenge wrote:

We just have to agree to disagree on this one...Remember, that the US would still have had the Saratoga, Wasp and the Essex, and the Essex class carriers were begining to come on-line in 1942...

I don't think the US would have folded just because Australia was threathened...Look at how timid the Japanese were at Coral Sea...they actually won the tactical engagement but called off the invasion!!! The Japanese (contrary to popular belief) tended to be VERY catious when engaging w/ naval forces...this is seen throughout the war (eg: look at Leyte Gulf)...even at Pearl, a more daring commander would have continued to hammer Pearl Harbor and hunt the carriers down...

As far as all of the air crews being lost, that is pure speculation...when a Japanese ship went down there tended to be excessive of casualties, partly because of cultural beliefs and partly because of poor damage control and life-saving equipment...the US was much better at recovering downed aircrew and sailors...

I'd like to get other viewpoints on this interesting "what-if"...

Agreed.  And I'll shut up now... well after this final point - remember that the goal of the Japanese was simply to inflict enough damage on the US to get us to get out of the war in the Pacific and concede dominance in eastern Asia to Japan.  They intended to do this by pushing out their defensive perimeter to various islands that were then intended to be heavily fortified.  That way, their 'backdoor' was covered so they could turn their attention to mainland and Southeast Asia.  Midway would have gone a long way to accomplishing that for them.

I'll also concede that you are probably correct, it is likely that even if the US carriers were lost, many of the aircrews would have survived to form the backbone of whatever force the US mustered to continue to fight on...  Or perhaps, because Europe was seen as the vital front, we would have said, 'aw the heck with it for now' and poured all our resources into the European war, not diverting too many of these valuable resources to the Pacific, and largely giving the Japanese what they wanted...

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 15, 2008 10:39 PM
 bbrowniii wrote:

 Mansteins revenge wrote:

We just have to agree to disagree on this one...Remember, that the US would still have had the Saratoga, Wasp and the Essex, and the Essex class carriers were begining to come on-line in 1942...

I don't think the US would have folded just because Australia was threathened...Look at how timid the Japanese were at Coral Sea...they actually won the tactical engagement but called off the invasion!!! The Japanese (contrary to popular belief) tended to be VERY catious when engaging w/ naval forces...this is seen throughout the war (eg: look at Leyte Gulf)...even at Pearl, a more daring commander would have continued to hammer Pearl Harbor and hunt the carriers down...

As far as all of the air crews being lost, that is pure speculation...when a Japanese ship went down there tended to be excessive of casualties, partly because of cultural beliefs and partly because of poor damage control and life-saving equipment...the US was much better at recovering downed aircrew and sailors...

I'd like to get other viewpoints on this interesting "what-if"...

Agreed.  And I'll shut up now... well after this final point - remember that the goal of the Japanese was simply to inflict enough damage on the US to get us to get out of the war in the Pacific and concede dominance in eastern Asia to Japan.  They intended to do this by pushing out their defensive perimeter to various islands that were then intended to be heavily fortified.  That way, their 'backdoor' was covered so they could turn their attention to mainland and Southeast Asia.  Midway would have gone a long way to accomplishing that for them.

I'll also concede that you are probably correct, it is likely that even if the US carriers were lost, many of the aircrews would have survived to form the backbone of whatever force the US mustered to continue to fight on...  Or perhaps, because Europe was seen as the vital front, we would have said, 'aw the heck with it for now' and poured all our resources into the European war, not diverting too many of these valuable resources to the Pacific, and largely giving the Japanese what they wanted...

"They intended to do this by pushing out their defensive perimeter to various islands that were then intended to be heavily fortified."

To a large degree they accomplished this anyway, BUT the US was not shy at all in taking HEAVY casualties in ejecting them, eg: Tarawa, Sapain, Guam, Peleliu, Iwo Jima, Phillipines, Okinawa...

I mean, the US lost OVER 12,000 DEAD on Okinawa alone, 79 ships SUNK/scrapped, and 762 airplanes lost---clearly the US was willing to take casualties---and lots of them...I hardly think the loss of 3 carriers and several thousand casualties in '42 would have caused the US to sue for peace...

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Monday, September 15, 2008 10:56 PM

Sorry to have hijacked the thread apparently.

Let's look at US Carrier losses.. I agree that the US emphasis on damage control tended to put us in a better position than the japanese, albeit the case of CV-13 Franklin's bombing is an exception with horrendus loss of life even though the ship was saved. If you look at the carriers the US lost in 1942 they pretty much survived long enough for an orderly abandon ship, although not without loss in the initial action that caused their losses.

CV-2 Lexington - 2,122 total, 216 killed

CV-7 Wasp - 2,247 total, 173 lost when torpedoed.

In all cases a significant portion of the crew and air wing were saved.

We nuked Japan; a loss at midway wouldn't have done anything more than made us madder and more determined.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 2:34 AM

The Battle of Tsushima- which showed that Colonial Victorian era power could only extend so far.

The Battle of the Atlantic, WW2. A multinational effort, with combined resources, strategic goals and determination on both sides. Almost a war in itself.

The Battle of Jutland, a massive engagement of fleets that disproved the notion of capital ships in battle.

The Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. The USS San Francisco fought valiantly.

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 8:09 AM
I know one thing after reading through this thread, and others I've posted in here: there's some really educated and well-read folks in here on naval and ship history !!!
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Posted by madmike on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 9:11 AM

Ancient (BC to 999 AD)

Battle of Salamis

Medieval (1,000 AD to 1659 AD)

Battle of Lepanto 1571 - last big battle between galleys

Spanish Armada

Age of Revolution (18th Century)

Battle of the Saintes 1782 (The end of France's American ambitions

Battle of the Nile (Nelson's first major fleet action as sole fleet commander)

Battle of Camperdown (RN destroy's Dutch fleet)

Battle of Trafalgar (Nelson's finest but last victory and the cementation of the dominance of the Royal Navy)

Early Industrial (19th Century)

Battle of Hampton Roads (USS Monitor and CSS Virginia, ironclad vs ironclad)

Modern (20th Century)

Battle of Tsushima Strait (The arrival of the modern Japanese imperial navy)

Battle of the Falklands 1914 (RN battlecruisers in the role they were designed for)

Battle of Jutland (RN battlecruisers in the wrong role,the RN lost more ships but the German navy never challenged the RN again)

Battle of Matapan (RN battleships obliterate Italian cruisers and ward of their battleships

Battle of Sunda Strait (USS Houston and HMAS Perth fight valiantly and hopelessly)

The Battle of the Atlantic and the Arctic Convoys

Battle of Midway

Battle of Leyte

 

Battle of the Falklands


 

 

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei
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