Heller Royal Louis *WIP 11/21*

these things are tiny (2.5mm)!

i've just been spending some time messing around with the dead eyes the last couple of weeks. next time i'll forgoe the string and just use wire for stropping the deadeyes it seems like it would be less of a headache and a little more realistic. and better looking to say the least. oh well, overall i'm pleased with what i've got done.

funny how not so great things look when you get close up......

 

Try to find the book used on ebay.  It really is a good one!

Here are a few more references online for French and British hygiene, and the enormous strides made bythe British long before taken up by the French, or Spanish... This is from 1799, the whole text of which can be seen at:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/Select_Docs/124_Medical_Reforms.html

I beg leave to give an instance, in the Formidable, of the great and salutary effects of the proposed improvements. This ship left England, furnished not only with sour kraut and molasses, in common with most others in the squadron, but what was peculiar to herself was an entire supply of good wine in place of spirits; and an experiment has been made in this instance, under my own eyes, to ascertain what degree of health it was possible to attain in a great ship in this climate. With the above advantages together with good discipline and medical care, no man ¹ died of disease from December, 1781, to May, 1782, and only thirteen were sent to hospitals, whose complaints were small-pox and ulcers. In the months of May and June last, when at Jamaica, there died of disease in this ship three men, and seventeen were sent to the hospital, most of whom had contracted their sickness on board of French prizes.

Thanks searat, I looked at the Saffren book on Amazon, but at £80 it was too rich for my blood, so I'll have to defer the pleasure of reading about a less than fragrant, obese naval commander, no matter how brilliant a tactician.

Cheers

I also strongly recommend the book about Admiral Suffren, probably the finest Admiral the French Navy ever produced!  His naval efforts were remarkable, but the ships in his squadron were filthy, and he was himself as well (Suffren was a glutton, ate with his fingers, often neglected to bathe or shave, or change his clothes for weeks either.  And he was the Admiral!).  Here is a good online reference ref hygiene in the French Navy during the Seven Years war:

http://books.google.com/books?id=T-9JF-J7b0kC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=French+naval+cleanliness&source=bl&ots=3lpC1W-yBJ&sig=WCOtSO36cNCfvqV70RVbOuFu_hk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA99,M1

Thanks searat for the reference to the J.R. Dull book, I have ordered it from Amazon.

I'm not sure I am prepared to assume that Boudriot is referring to British practice,as his work specifically relates to the French 74 from framing thro' to sailing, with only passing references to the British navy; one of which was that the French Navy denied itself the only remedy against the onset of scurvy despite the example given by the English navy!

Perhaps he is describing the laid down procedures or ideal which are more honoured in the breach than the rule, even today the French have a reputation for disregarding their own rules if it suits them.

He is writing at a date of 1780, some twenty years after the Seven years war, had things improved to some extent by then, I don't know.

Anyway on the Seventy-four I am currently building I've no intention of trying to replicate either filth or smell, mine will be an example of a ship run by a conscientious Captain, as described by Boudriot.

Certainly!  I refer you to the exhaustive book 'The French Navy & The Seven Years War' by Jonathan R. Dull.  In it are a number of accounts regarding the state of French ships of that period and following, in which entire campaigns were ruined as a result of plagues that killed the majority of the crews and/or soldiers carried.  These plagues of Typhus were the direct result of poor hygiene aboard, and one direct result was the loss of the great Canadian fortress of Louisburg, because the sizeable fleet sent with thousands of reinforcing troops was decimated by disease. The fleet barely made it back to France with the survivors, and then spread the infection to the towns, with over 30,000 casualties recorded, just within the ranks of the French Navy!  One other standard to note, which carried through much of the Naploeonic Wars was the British custom of stripping, and purposely sinking and refloating captured ships to rid them of infestations of the lice and fleas inherent with french warships.  If this was not possible, then fumigation with burning sulpher pots was often required.  The British very early on made a great study of the diseases inherent with seamen, and many treatises and experiments were carried out.  Such efforts resulted not only in the discovery of a preventative for scurvy in the mid 18th century (lemons and lime juice, which was not 'discovered' or followed by either the French, or the Spanish until AFTER the Napoleonic wars!), but also the great benefits to be acquired by a scrupulous attention to cleanliness of the crew, and cleanliness of the ship, which became virtually a requirement and standard operating procedure for all British commanders, and this spilled over into the British East India company as well.  You might also examine the biography of the great (but filthy!) French Admiral Suffren and his activities in the Indian Ocean for contemporary accounts of the condition and hygiene of French warships (Admiral Satan,' by Roderick Cavaliero).  Not to put too fine a point on it, the French ships stank and their nationality could be easily told if you happened to be downwind of one...... The account of Mr. Boudriot relates to the standard practice on British warships, not French!  Prior to the Revoluution, all ships officers on French warships were members of the aristocracy, and owed their position to court influence, not skill, experience, or training.  the best officers on the French navy in fact received their training through service with the Knights of Malta, not any French naval academy (Suffren is the greatest example of this).  But even here, family connections were paramount, not merit.  Little, or no attention was paid to most of the ships workings by the officers, and even less was paid to the condition of the men, or the conditions they lived in.

searat12 wrote:

Well, ordinarily that's true... But the French were some of filthiest people at sea ever recorded, so having a dark deck is not particularly unrealistic.....!

I too had this notion that French ships were filthy and ill kept but where I got this notion I really can't recall, so what is the basis for this in fact?

Jean  Boudriot in his exhaustive work on the French 74 writes;

Health precautions must be taken in view of the overcrowding, the confined air between decks and pervading humidity.

If the Captain is a conscientious man he will give order every day at 9.00am (at sea) ‘Sweepers' the gundeck being swabbed, holystoned and fumigated. Before that the watch on deck will have washed down with seawater the Foc'sle, Quarterdeck, gangways, Poop, passages, upper works, and the poultry coops, the decks being swabbed dry and sanded.

It is considered absolutely essential to fumigate between decks, which is believed to disinfect the inside of the ship. The sides and deck-heads are rubbed dry with balls of tow, to remove condensation brought on by the breathing of men and animals.

The sheep pens and poultry coops must be cleaned constantly so that excrement does not lie there. Care must be taken to ensure that the men do not urinate over the sills of the gunports, and that the heads and the Quarter galleries are kept scrupulously clean. In harbour the men are not allowed to use the seats of ease in the head, so as not to spoil the ships sides, instead latrine buckets are placed in the heads.

Cleaning the ship is a constant pre-occupation, and the men must be employed every day.

He then goes on to detail the requirements for the personal cleanliness of the men.

So is the idea of Filthy French ships a myth, based perhaps on propaganda, or  anecdotal evidence relating to a few particular situations, historically the French have always accused the British of being filthy.

If the several hundred crew of a French ship are  not employed to some extent in cleaning ship, on a daily basis  what are they doing?

Perhaps searat could reveal his sources for the assertion that the French were some of the filthiest people at sea ever recorded.

Thanks! I suppose my question is answered!

Bill Morrison

ggatz wrote:

The bottom picture looks a lot like your model.  You captured the look quite well ..

thanks

Yup, these pictures show the decks of a warship that are neglected (as was the case with most French ships).  A British warship in commission is another kettle of fish, as they would holystone and sluice the decks just about every morning, thus keeping them a very light color, with comparatively much higher contrast with the caulking lines.  As an additional note, the wood decks of Scandinavian and Dutch vessels are almost always coated with thinned-down Stockholm tar as a preservative, which gives them a very dark appearance (one of the Danish yachts on my listings had done this, and it was quite startling for one used to either bleached, varnished, or brightened and oiled teak decks!).....

The bottom picture looks a lot like your model.  You captured the look quite well ..

jtilley wrote:

Well, virtually every wood deck on every real ship I've ever seen has had a decidedly greyish cast.  To some extent that may be due to the use of unauthentic materials.  (The decks of the Surprise in the movie "Master and Commander" sure look like they're made of pressure-treated pine, from someplace like Lowe's.)  But on the basis of such sources as old master paintings I'm inclined to think a greyish look is generally appropriate - especially if the ship being represented has been in service for some time. Ggatz's use of the word "convention" is dead on target.  There are all sorts of conventions in ship model building - perhaps more than in any other phase of modeling.  And some of them are, to some extent, at odds with strict authenticity.  The exquisite "Board Room" models of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries are often (and in my opinion justly) regarded as some of the finest models ever built, but nobody could ever mistake a photo of one of them for a photo of a real ship.  The rich brownish or goldish color of deck planks on many wood ship models, I think, falls in the category of "artistic license."  One of the first things a ship modeler needs to do when planning a model is to decide just what approach he/she is going to take.  The "realistic" approach may call for choosing colors that are as accurate as research will permit - in planking, decorations, rigging, and everything else.  That's more-or-less the approach I took to my little model of the frigate Hancock, a picture of which is in my avatar.  (More pictures of it:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyHancock/index.html .) As you can see, its decks are pretty greyish - and that's entirely intentional.  But I don't suggest for an instant that this is the only "legitimate" way to build a ship model.

Funny you mention the HMS Surprise. The second picture is from the deck when I took a trip to the San Diego maritime museum. Here's a couple more. I purposely took pictures of the deck for building models.

Well, virtually every wood deck on every real ship I've ever seen has had a decidedly greyish cast.  To some extent that may be due to the use of unauthentic materials.  (The decks of the Surprise in the movie "Master and Commander" sure look like they're made of pressure-treated pine, from someplace like Lowe's.)  But on the basis of such sources as old master paintings I'm inclined to think a greyish look is generally appropriate - especially if the ship being represented has been in service for some time.

Ggatz's use of the word "convention" is dead on target.  There are all sorts of conventions in ship model building - perhaps more than in any other phase of modeling.  And some of them are, to some extent, at odds with strict authenticity.  The exquisite "Board Room" models of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries are often (and in my opinion justly) regarded as some of the finest models ever built, but nobody could ever mistake a photo of one of them for a photo of a real ship.  The rich brownish or goldish color of deck planks on many wood ship models, I think, falls in the category of "artistic license." 

One of the first things a ship modeler needs to do when planning a model is to decide just what approach he/she is going to take.  The "realistic" approach may call for choosing colors that are as accurate as research will permit - in planking, decorations, rigging, and everything else.  That's more-or-less the approach I took to my little model of the frigate Hancock, a picture of which is in my avatar.  (More pictures of it:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyHancock/index.html .) As you can see, its decks are pretty greyish - and that's entirely intentional.  But I don't suggest for an instant that this is the only "legitimate" way to build a ship model.   

warshipguy wrote:

I have been gone from the forum with a diabetes-related problem, but am returning.  I really like your work but am somewhat puzzled by the darkness of the decks.  They are certainly beautiful, but wooden decks tend to bleach a greyish color over time and use. I do not mean to imply a criticism, but rather am asking a question. Bill Morrison

While I believe your observation about the actual color of wooden decks as they age is correct, if you peruse the galleries of sailing ship model sites such as Model Ship World and Drydock Models, you will find that convention seems to dictate a natural wood finish; even when other parts of the model are painted. I don't recall having ever seen the greyish color you allude to. 

warshipguy wrote:

I have been gone from the forum with a diabetes-related problem, but am returning.  I really like your work but am somewhat puzzled by the darkness of the decks.  They are certainly beautiful, but wooden decks tend to bleach a greyish color over time and use. I do not mean to imply a criticism, but rather am asking a question. Bill Morrison

Thats true for most naval ships. however as searat has said. the french navy had a pretty nasty reputation for lack of cleanlines. also from some of my experiances on tall ships the decks have looked weathered and dark so i just went with it.

 

searat12 wrote:

What kind of paint did you use for the gold?

humbrol gold. i make sure to shake it a stir it before use. works beatifuly

Well, ordinarily that's true... But the French were some of filthiest people at sea ever recorded, so having a dark deck is not particularly unrealistic.....!

I have been gone from the forum with a diabetes-related problem, but am returning.  I really like your work but am somewhat puzzled by the darkness of the decks.  They are certainly beautiful, but wooden decks tend to bleach a greyish color over time and use. I do not mean to imply a criticism, but rather am asking a question.

Bill Morrison

What kind of paint did you use for the gold?

Grem56 wrote:

Looking good there enemeink, love the contrast between the grey/purple and the gold. Julian

thanks Julian, it's actually supposed to be brown. i used the paints that came with this kit (humbrol # 98 "chocolate") to cut down on some of the costs, though it's not 100% correct.

Looking good there enemeink, love the contrast between the grey/purple and the gold.

Julian

works on this has been pretty slow. i added some closed gun ports it took me about an hour and a half to add the gammoning a sieze it all together. good times. also the figure head was added. this gold paint is awesome but if it's handled to much it starts to wear off. that will stop once i get the weathering finished and a coat of clear added. enjoy!

 

thanks, I wish it was that big. It's only 1/200th.

Wow...nice work.  Is this 1/96th scale?

That is a very nice build... catching up with it... lots of nice details, lots of work too! But looking good so far..cheers

So here's another one of those details that Heller could have incorporated into the mold on the hull. but instead i have 48 tiny pieces that need to go above the gun ports. i had to make a small tool out of a tooth pick and some masking tape to pick up the pieces and set them to the hull with out getting glue everywhere.

also when i was starting to prep the railings i found that one of the rails was missing some molded parts. so i sanded the piece smooth to prepare the area for the scratch built parts.

i took a tooth pick and cut it in half. set it next to the pieces that i was copying and drew the lines. (i didn't have my micrometer for this so i winged it)

I then put the piece in my drill and used it as a lathe for turn the piece and my knife. worked ok.

and voila!! ankinda ugly scratch built piece

just a small update today. there is a set of stairs that are pretty funky on the poop deck. looks like i need to build a railing becuase there is nothing in the kit. just an open hole. have a good weekend everybody!

 

Thank you for the compliment.

Maybe someday we can post our finished models together.  It is pretty uncommon to see these models in completed form.

 Best regards, look forward to seeing your fine progress.

Scott

scottrc wrote:

Love to see that someone else has tackled this kit.  Your build is so clean and precise.  I have been building on this kit off and on for about 10 years.  Rigging in this scale can be challanging because Heller's plastic for the masts and spars is not the stongest and requires a lot of patience when rigging the shrouds and ratlines because the mast will flex which means a lot of tensioning and adjusting.   Still beats trying to use the jig though. I did wonder why they only included half the complement of guns on one side. I have pics at my photo account website.  Again great build, might inspire me to finish mine.  Scott

Thanks Scott! 

yeah i thought that it was funny that they didn't include enough guns to fill the ship. i also didn't like the 2 piece barrels. but that's a pretty small complaint. i've been thinking about changing out the plastic masts and replacing them with wood dowls becuase of this. but i'm thinking that I might save that one for my next build (Old Ironsides) I remember seeing you Royal Louis posted not to long ago in reference to making paper sails. it jogged my memory when i went and look at your collection. very impressive