Bismarck vs. North Carolina;North Sea Duel...

Neptune48 wrote:

searat12 wrote:  stikpusher wrote: In Nov.42, USS Washington put in a very good performance at Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, albeit at a close range, but at night againt the most experienced night fighters in the world- the Imperial Japanese Navy. Being sister to the Washington, USS North Carolina, I would venture would be capable of a similar performance. Also in Nov.42, USS Massachusets also performed well in a seperate battleship duel. I think in late 42 USN battleship gunnery would be up to the challenge of a Bismark or Tirpitz. Well, it is important to remember that USS Washington had a bit of an advantage at Guadalcanal, as she was shielded by the very unlucky USS South Dakota, whose electrical system decided to shut down after her first salvo.  The Japanese, not knowing USS Washington was also present, concentrated all their fire on USS South Dakota, which was hammered by a barrage of 14" and 8" shells.  In fact, USS South Dakota was so badly damaged by these hits that it took close to a year to repair all the damage (let alone the casualties).  USS Washington was able to take advantage of this scenario by using not only her Radar, but the gunflashes of the Kirishima for targetting, and completely smashed the old battlecruiser in three rapid salvoes.....  Of course, the Japanese heavy cruisers slipped away with little damage, and the Washington did not pursue.  That said, while Bismarck seemed to have not only excellent gunnery performance, but could take a lot of punishment too (e.g, she was hit by a large number of 16" rounds from HMS Rodney without sinking).  But I'm not sure if Bismarck could keep up the volume of fire that an American battleship like USS Washington could unleash........ South Dakota's electrical system failed because her chief engineer tied all the breakers down, thus putting the ship's entire electrical system in series.  After receiving some hits and firing a couple of salvoes her electrical system tripped, shutting down her radar and radios, and locking her guns in train. While Washington steered behind the burning hulks of Walke and Preston, South Dakota maneuvered between the stricken destroyers and the enemy, thus silhoutteing herself and drawing devastating fire.  She suffered 42 hits, 38 dead and 60 wounded, and received considerable topside damage.  Because of her electrical failure, South Dakota was unable to advise Washington she was leaving the battle. Luck most certainly played a part, but the simple fact is Capt. Davis and Radm. Lee fought Washington better, though South Dakota's C.O. claimed credit for the victory ("Battleship X") in a Saturday Evening Post article.

I worked for an old man that was on the Washington from her first cruise till the end of WWII. I wish all of us could hear what Bob Greenwell had to say about that battle. Seeing ships actually lifted out of the water from a couple of almost simultaneous hits from a big gun. He never spoke of the South Dakota at that battle but did in other battles. He did say they were so close to the enemy that it was hard to miss once they were well into the engagement. The taking of 42 hits alone speaks for the construction and basic design of that class of battleships. I wonder how many were from 14" guns?

gary

I think if it was a North Sea long range gun Battle the North Carolina would have the edge. Even though Bismarck sustained massive upper structure damage she wasn't subjected to long range plunging fire for long. Rodney and KGV rushed her hard and closed the range, if I remember correctly, along with cruiser support. Got to remember also that Bismarck couldn't manouver so she didn't stand a chance. Same kind of tactic unfortunatly that POW and Hood tried alone but both of those ships shouldn't have been in the same waters with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. POW because she was still being worked on and Hood was just out classed. Still the Bismarck took an amazing amount of punishment from Rodney and KGV. South Dakota also wasn't subjected to the plunging fire and was able to get away even with a lot of damage. I think if the fighting got close then it would be a very near thing but Bismarck might prevail.

searat12 wrote:

stikpusher wrote: In Nov.42, USS Washington put in a very good performance at Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, albeit at a close range, but at night againt the most experienced night fighters in the world- the Imperial Japanese Navy. Being sister to the Washington, USS North Carolina, I would venture would be capable of a similar performance. Also in Nov.42, USS Massachusets also performed well in a seperate battleship duel. I think in late 42 USN battleship gunnery would be up to the challenge of a Bismark or Tirpitz. Well, it is important to remember that USS Washington had a bit of an advantage at Guadalcanal, as she was shielded by the very unlucky USS South Dakota, whose electrical system decided to shut down after her first salvo.  The Japanese, not knowing USS Washington was also present, concentrated all their fire on USS South Dakota, which was hammered by a barrage of 14" and 8" shells.  In fact, USS South Dakota was so badly damaged by these hits that it took close to a year to repair all the damage (let alone the casualties).  USS Washington was able to take advantage of this scenario by using not only her Radar, but the gunflashes of the Kirishima for targetting, and completely smashed the old battlecruiser in three rapid salvoes.....  Of course, the Japanese heavy cruisers slipped away with little damage, and the Washington did not pursue.  That said, while Bismarck seemed to have not only excellent gunnery performance, but could take a lot of punishment too (e.g, she was hit by a large number of 16" rounds from HMS Rodney without sinking).  But I'm not sure if Bismarck could keep up the volume of fire that an American battleship like USS Washington could unleash........

South Dakota's electrical system failed because her chief engineer tied all the breakers down, thus putting the ship's entire electrical system in series.  After receiving some hits and firing a couple of salvoes her electrical system tripped, shutting down her radar and radios, and locking her guns in train.

While Washington steered behind the burning hulks of Walke and Preston, South Dakota maneuvered between the stricken destroyers and the enemy, thus silhoutteing herself and drawing devastating fire.  She suffered 42 hits, 38 dead and 60 wounded, and received considerable topside damage.  Because of her electrical failure, South Dakota was unable to advise Washington she was leaving the battle.

Luck most certainly played a part, but the simple fact is Capt. Davis and Radm. Lee fought Washington better, though South Dakota's C.O. claimed credit for the victory ("Battleship X") in a Saturday Evening Post article.

I was always under the impression that German radars lagged behind US/UK radars (at least as related to the air war). And again, US Battleship gunnery had proven itself in the few duels it did actually engage in, Washington vs Kirishima, Massachusets vs Jean Bart, and of course Surigao Strait. Wether the losing battleship was scuttled by its' crew, sunk by aircraft at daylight, or succumbed directly to its primary opponent or escorts, the results are the same. From what I have read about the South Dakota at Guadalcanal, her electrical system failure can be traced to an improper move made by her chief engineer during that fight. She survived her pummeling of 8" and 14" shells. I think North Carolina would have stood up well to Bismark or Tirpitz in a slugfest between them.

...and, most historians agree that the Bismarck was scuttled by its own crew...it did not sink due to gunfire, although it was pretty much a wreck topsides...

stikpusher wrote:

In Nov.42, USS Washington put in a very good performance at Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, albeit at a close range, but at night againt the most experienced night fighters in the world- the Imperial Japanese Navy. Being sister to the Washington, USS North Carolina, I would venture would be capable of a similar performance. Also in Nov.42, USS Massachusets also performed well in a seperate battleship duel. I think in late 42 USN battleship gunnery would be up to the challenge of a Bismark or Tirpitz.

Well, it is important to remember that USS Washington had a bit of an advantage at Guadalcanal, as she was shielded by the very unlucky USS South Dakota, whose electrical system decided to shut down after her first salvo.  The Japanese, not knowing USS Washington was also present, concentrated all their fire on USS South Dakota, which was hammered by a barrage of 14" and 8" shells.  In fact, USS South Dakota was so badly damaged by these hits that it took close to a year to repair all the damage (let alone the casualties).  USS Washington was able to take advantage of this scenario by using not only her Radar, but the gunflashes of the Kirishima for targetting, and completely smashed the old battlecruiser in three rapid salvoes.....  Of course, the Japanese heavy cruisers slipped away with little damage, and the Washington did not pursue.  That said, while Bismarck seemed to have not only excellent gunnery performance, but could take a lot of punishment too (e.g, she was hit by a large number of 16" rounds from HMS Rodney without sinking).  But I'm not sure if Bismarck could keep up the volume of fire that an American battleship like USS Washington could unleash........

chris hall wrote:

Early in her life, Bismarck had better gunnery control/ rangefinding radar and, arguably, better fire control computers than the Washingtons. Absent air cover, and especially at night, Bismarck gets her shots in first, and they're more likely to hit. The US ships' longer range and greater throw-weight counts for nothing if all they hit is water. Also, in 1941/42, the Bismarck's crew have more combat experince, albeit, not necessarily aboard Bismarck herself. Cheers, Chris.

assuming it was actually the Bismarck that sank the Hood, then it must also be remembered that it took three salvos to make the fatal hit. Many naval historians say it's bunk that the Bismarck sank the hood due to point of impact and trajectory of the rounds. Many think the Hood fell to the Prinz Eugein (sp). The cruiser was capable of a much more rapid rate of fire, and at the distances fired some feel that there was not enough elevation in the Bismarck's turrets to gain a thru the deck hit. I ploted the algerbraic curve many years ago, and I can see their thoughts even though it's a mute point.

    So assuming the first salvo went long, and the second went short; does that mean that the other guys wouldn't fire a single shot? The North Carolina had "SC" radar at the minimum, and might have had "SG" radar. If in fact it did have "SG" radar they would have engaged long before the Bismarck would have picked them up. The German radar was not as good as "SC", and that wasn't all that good. But even then at two thirds max range for a 16" rifle the radar would barely be usable (assuming once again it was "SC"). I'm seeing the North Carolina engaging three miles before the German ship fires the first round. Especially in a nightime engagement. Also if your looking at 1943 or later the armor belts were beefed up vastly on that class of battleship. And pray tell that the first salvo didn't knock out the hydraulic system.

gary

In Nov.42, USS Washington put in a very good performance at Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, albeit at a close range, but at night againt the most experienced night fighters in the world- the Imperial Japanese Navy. Being sister to the Washington, USS North Carolina, I would venture would be capable of a similar performance. Also in Nov.42, USS Massachusets also performed well in a seperate battleship duel. I think in late 42 USN battleship gunnery would be up to the challenge of a Bismark or Tirpitz.

Early in her life, Bismarck had better gunnery control/ rangefinding radar and, arguably, better fire control computers than the Washingtons. Absent air cover, and especially at night, Bismarck gets her shots in first, and they're more likely to hit. The US ships' longer range and greater throw-weight counts for nothing if all they hit is water.

Also, in 1941/42, the Bismarck's crew have more combat experince, albeit, not necessarily aboard Bismarck herself.

Cheers,

Chris.

depending on the year, there could of course be a wide difference. I'll put my money on the North Carolina.

gary