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In Bad Taste?

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  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Wilmington, NC
In Bad Taste?
Posted by mark983 on Wednesday, October 1, 2008 3:23 PM

 

I'm usually a aircraft guy..but saw an interesting frame of the USS Arizona in the movie "Pearl Harbor" that I was thinking about re-creating.  The point when she buckles and explodes!  I think its an amazing and shocking scene (totally Hollywood) but I'm torn whether or not to do it because the Arizona is special to so many of us...kind of like re-creating the fall of the twin towers...and now as I'm writing this..maybe this would not be a good idea...hmmm..thoughts..concerns....

Mark

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, October 1, 2008 3:51 PM
Go for it...... You might also want to do something similar for the other side... like a diorama of Yamashiro going down under a hail of US battleship shells!
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, October 1, 2008 4:56 PM
i'd say go for it. I think that as long as it's presented in the right way it would be very good. 
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Wednesday, October 1, 2008 5:00 PM

I don't think it's in bad taste so long as the overall presentation doesn't come across as revelling in the tragedy.

 

  • Member since
    September 2008
  • From: Garden Grove
Posted by socalsnow on Wednesday, October 1, 2008 8:31 PM

Not to do it (for the reason you presented) would to say that one art form has rights over another. If movie can be made, or a painting can be created depicting the scene, then there is no reason why a modeler's art form is any less valid. I believe you are creating a statement. A powerful one at that. And you shouldn't have any hesitation.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Thursday, October 2, 2008 5:27 AM
Go for it, just try not to depict bodies flying in the air.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Philadelphia PA
Posted by smeagol the vile on Thursday, October 2, 2008 7:07 AM
As long as you dont do it like a yay for japan victory dio, and more a homage to a fallen american ship, youll do fine.

 

  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: Maryland
Posted by usmc1371 on Thursday, October 2, 2008 7:32 AM

Doable? Yes. Realistic? Don't think so. If you look at the video and the still images of the explosion, you'll notice no buckling of the hull. When the bomb exploded, the majority of the explosion would go straight up because the water under the hull would act as a tamping factor. Water doesn't compress very well therefore the force of the explosion would be directed upward. Also, the underwater photos of the wreck don't show any buckling forward. Most of the starboard and port sides forward are still intact including the armored sides.

I think the movie makers saw too many films of torpedo hits on ships which do tend to lift the ship and break it in half. That would happen from the explosion being underwater, hence a tamping factor. The force of the explosion follows the path of least resistance which would be straight up.

Basically, the explosion would push down on the hull which then would push down on the water, the water doesn't compress and causes the force of the explosion up through the deck (the weakest part).

I'm not an explosives expert, but I did spend 8 years blowing things up as a combat engineer.

-Jesse

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Wilmington, NC
Posted by mark983 on Thursday, October 2, 2008 7:35 AM

Jesse..great points...I always love depicting scenes from actual footage..maybe I can work something in from those old black and whites...

Mark

  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: Maryland
Posted by usmc1371 on Thursday, October 2, 2008 7:43 AM

You might have a hard time with the smoke from the explosions.  How about a model of the day after?  Most of the deck was still above the water line (the ship hadn't settled in the mud yet) along with the superstructure, although badly damaged.  If you did a water diorama with the rescue crews around, I think that would be cool.  There are a lot of pictures available from days after December 8.

Here's an example: http://www.steelnavy.com/MiniHobbiesArizonaAJoslin.htm

-Jesse

  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Philadelphia PA
Posted by smeagol the vile on Thursday, October 2, 2008 10:45 AM
If you pick up Stud Turkel's 'the good war' (an oral history of WWII) there are one or two stories of people who worked as the rescuers during and right after pearl harbor, anopther good place for some ideas.

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Thursday, October 2, 2008 11:41 AM
 usmc1371 wrote:

Doable? Yes. Realistic? Don't think so. If you look at the video and the still images of the explosion, you'll notice no buckling of the hull. When the bomb exploded, the majority of the explosion would go straight up because the water under the hull would act as a tamping factor. Water doesn't compress very well therefore the force of the explosion would be directed upward. Also, the underwater photos of the wreck don't show any buckling forward. Most of the starboard and port sides forward are still intact including the armored sides.

A couple of points here... many of your conclusions are incorrect.

If you look at the overall drawing based on a survey instead of photos that have a very limited view (For more drawings/sketches, go here and look at 3.7, 3.8A & 3.8B)
, you will see that the forward half of the ship is extremely distorted. The pressure that built up within the ship blew her up like a balloon before bursting out from the sides of the ship. You are correct that the water acted as a tamp... but only on the portions of the hull that were below the waterline. The sides of the hull blew out above the torpedo blister, leaving the main deck largely intact (to sink down into the chasm that the explosion created).

If you look at this video clip you will note a lot of horizontal movement of the explosion as well as a jet of  soot from the stack... one of the early misconceptions was that a bomb had gone down the stack; but the tremendous pressure build up in the hull made it back to the fire rooms and rushed out through the boiler, taking a lot of soot up with it.

It would be a worthwhile venture in my opinion, but extremely hard to make look right.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 2, 2008 12:01 PM
That clip is very well known but usually it is zoomed in and reversed...one thing for sure that YOU DON'T SEE is the ship lifting out of the water...also, it appears that the explosion traveled aft in the ship and the most intense fire also seemed to burn aft as well...One thing to determine if you are going to do this dio is what millisecond are you going to portray, since the explosion is so dynamic and every fraction of a second would be a different depiction...
  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Wilmington, NC
Posted by mark983 on Thursday, October 2, 2008 1:59 PM

Wow everyone!!...so glad I asked....you all are a great source of info...taking into consideration the exact moment i want to depict, the physics of the explosion, the honor I want to portray..this could very well be the project of the year for me...thanks all for getting my creative juices flowin.

Mark

  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: Maryland
Posted by usmc1371 on Thursday, October 2, 2008 5:21 PM

 

The ship was devasted forward of frame 88.  The explosion ripped through the sides of Arizona from frame 10 to frame 70 and upwards through the deck forward of turret one.  The deck area from frame 70 to frame 34 collapsed and sloped downward.  The forward turrets and conning tower fell 25-30 feet.   Basically, the ship was gutted in this area and everything fell forward into it.  Now in terms of side damage, about 20 feet from deck to blisters was blown out.  The remaining 40 feet from the top of the blister to the keel remains, most of it sunk in the mud.

The above information comes from "Battleship Arizona: An Illustrated History" by Paul Stillwell and from "USS Arizona: Ships Data" by Arizona Memorial Museum Assn. 

In my previous post I mentioned the ship did not buckle.  By that I ment, the ship's keel did not bend due to the explosion.

Here's the video on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv1niwxQgoY&feature=related

Go to 2:20.  Clearly the way the ship lifts out of the water didn't really happen.

-Jesse

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Lyons Colorado, USA
Posted by Ray Marotta on Saturday, October 4, 2008 5:12 PM

This may be slightly off topic but, I think another interesting possibility for a diorama involving

the Arizona would be the shore batteries on Oahu that were built using two of the Arizona's

14" turrets.  The third turret remains in the wreck.  One was emplaced at Kaneohe on the  

windward side and the other at Maile

on the leeward side of the island.  I believe one of the batteries was completed and test fired

around VJ Day.  Then, both were cut up for scrap.

Ray

 ]

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Saturday, October 4, 2008 9:35 PM
Ray, there is 2 turrets left on the arizona, "A" turret is complete with guns & "B" turret minus guns, roof & front plate.
  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: Maryland
Posted by usmc1371 on Sunday, October 5, 2008 8:40 AM

Two coastal batteries were planned.  There were to be call Battery Pennsylvania and Battery Arizona.  Battery Pennsylvania was placed on the tip of Mokapu Peninsula and Battery Arizona was to be placed near Kahe Point.  Battery Pennsylvania was completed, after numerous difficulties, August 1945.  It fired it's guns once on VJ day and immediately became obsolete.  Battery Arizona's construction was cancelled mid-stream and never completed.

Interesting, there are many relics from Arizona's superstructure rusting away on Waipio Peninsula. 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119672450795312374.html

http://ussarizonafacts.org/remnant1.htm

Jesse 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Lyons Colorado, USA
Posted by Ray Marotta on Sunday, October 5, 2008 10:53 AM

You are absolutely correct about two turrets being left in the wreck.  One turret is intact

and the other one had the guns and machinery removed.  I have raw video of the first Park

Service dive on the ship.  Sadly, the video is in Beta format but I'm looking to have it put on

DVD. 

   One of the shore batteries was emplaced at Maile Pt.  There are a couple of bunkers at

Kahe point, too but, I suspect they were the end range sighting stations for Maile Pt.

I used to work at the Air Force Tracking station on top of Kaena Pt and have explored those

completely.  At Maile, as late as 1987 the azimuth ring gear for the turret was still visible

embedded in concrete right above the Maile powerplant.

Many many old Coast Artillery sights on Oahu.

Ray

 ]

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Sunday, October 5, 2008 10:57 AM

As an aside, since we're talking about it, the guns from turret 2 were mounted on BB-36 USS Nevada after her work supporting the invasion of France in 1944. So they enacted some small amount of revenge when Nevada took part in the invasions of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

As far as I know they were sunk a second time, permanently, in 1948 when Nevada was expended as a gunnery target.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by bigjimslade on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 1:02 PM
 mark983 wrote:

 I'm usually a aircraft guy..but saw an interesting frame of the USS Arizona in the movie "Pearl Harbor" that I was thinking about re-creating.  The point when she buckles and explodes!  I think its an amazing and shocking scene (totally Hollywood) but I'm torn whether or not to do it because the Arizona is special to so many of us...kind of like re-creating the fall of the twin towers...and now as I'm writing this..maybe this would not be a good idea...hmmm..thoughts..concerns....

Man, you have a better stomach than I. I've never been able to sit through more than 10 minutes of that dreadful movie.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 10:55 PM

I confess I'm not that movie's biggest fan.  I have, however, been forced to recognize something positive about it.

At the beginning of each semester I give the students in my U.S. military history course a brief written survey, asking them some ludicrously basic questions about the subject.  (Examples: 
"What is the title of the individual who serves as the commander-in-chief of the U.S. armed forces?"  "Who commanded the American Continental Army during the American Revolution?"  "In what year did the American Civil War end?"  "Name a country the U.S. was fighting in World War I."  "Which side - north or south - did the U.S. support in the Vietnam conflict?")  The results of the survey invariably are depressing in the extreme - especially in view of the fact that the people taking it are college undergraduates (i.e., people with high school diplomas who, by definition, are more interested in getting educated than most of the general population).  The average score on the survey is usually a D or thereabouts.  (Typically, about 25 percent don't know which side the U.S. was on in Vietnam.)

Another of the questions on the survey is:  "The United States entered the Second World War as a direct result of a 'sneak attack' on an American military base on December 7, 1941.  What was that military base?"  I started giving out that survey in about 1990, and for years the number of students who missed that question was about 20 to 25 percent.  (Some interesting answers:  Ft. Knox, Ft. Fisher, Ft. Sumter, Camp Lejeune, Ft. Bragg, and Valley Forge.)  Then, in the spring semester of 2002, everybody in the class suddenly got that question right!  The movie had been released about a month earlier.  Thank you, Mr. Affleck.

In the fall semester, 2008, out of a class of 21 students, four missed that question on the survey.

"Pearl Harbor" has another distinction:  it's the only war movie my wife likes better than I do.  She's a high school history teacher; she says the movie makes a big impression on high school kids, who really relate to it (and, presumably, learn what Pearl Harbor was by watching it).  She and I have had some interesting, and rather enthusiastic, conversations about this sort of thing.  Another bone of contention is Disney's "Pocahantas."  I'm a big fan of Disney animation, which I regard as one of the wonders of the world.  But in historical terms that movie makes me semi-catatonic.  (I can handle the concept that trees can talk and racoons can't, but I still don't understand how Yellowstone National Park, complete with mountains and waterfalls, got relocated to Tidewater Virginia.  Or how Pocahantas and Mel Gibson managed to learn how to speak the same language in two minutes.  Or...oh, never mind.)  My wife says any movie that gets kids interested in history, and makes them want to learn more about it, can't be all bad.  It's hard to argue with that logic.

Then there was the time I rented the Russian version of "War and Peace" - the one that lasts seven and a half hours.  When is was over there were several minutes of silence, after which my wife said:  "John, the next six movies you rent are not to have any horses, cannons, explosions, or people with names ending in A."

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Thursday, October 9, 2008 5:35 AM

I was watching a DVD of Lawrence of Arabia the other day and after watching a third of it my 22 year old daughter and her boyfriend came into the room and started watching it with me. At first it was "C'mon, don't you think that you could find anything else more boring?' to "Can you go back to the beginning so we can see the whole thing?". They learned a little history that day.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Wilmington, NC
Posted by mark983 on Thursday, October 9, 2008 5:59 AM

jtilley  There is also something to be said about building models and dioramas that increases the interest in history.  One of my best friends is a history teacher in NC and he decided to let his students build models or dioramas of any subject in history.  While working on these projects, he found his kids unlocked a tremendous amount of interest on the subject they were modeling.  I find when I work on a model plane, I can't help think about who all was involved in the conflict, who flew these birds and what their story was..

 

Mark

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