Greatest ship vs ship shot ever made?

subfixer wrote:

OK, how about the shot made by USS Ward on a Japanese midget submarine at the mouth of Pearl Harbor? http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/HURL/midget.html It wasn't remarkable because of the range but that it resulted in the first casualty in what became the war between Japan and the USA in the Pacific. The crew consisted of Naval reservists from Minnesota and the 4" gun that fired the fatal shot is on display as a memorial at the Minnesota State Capital. Here is a link to a good Wiki entry on the Ward: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ward

OK, how about the shot made by USS Ward on a Japanese midget submarine at the mouth of Pearl Harbor? http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/HURL/midget.html

It wasn't remarkable because of the range but that it resulted in the first casualty in what became the war between Japan and the USA in the Pacific. The crew consisted of Naval reservists from Minnesota and the 4" gun that fired the fatal shot is on display as a memorial at the Minnesota State Capital.

Here is a link to a good Wiki entry on the Ward: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ward

bbrowniii wrote:

subfixer wrote:  BigJim wrote: subfixer wrote: C'mon, Coast Guard Bob!  The question was longest distance not just best shot, Ah com'on, yer a subfixer! From my periscope, the subject above clearly states "Greatest ship vs ship shot ever made". To which I will put into nomination The U.S.S. Wahoo with Mush Morton & company in Wewak Harbor with a clutch down the throat torpedo shot on a Japanese destroyer. True, but as with several of Manny's posts, you have to read his initial post to get the full question. He clearly stated "gunfire". Go back and read the first post of this thread, you'll see. True, he did state gunfire, but is it reasonable to argue that, since subs rarely engaged with deckguns, that some of their torpedo shots bear consideration?  Actually, the title says the 'Greatest' ship vs. ship shot.  Did Manny say in the original post if by, 'greatest', he specifically meant greatest range?  Aren't there some shorter range shots that might be considered 'great' simply due to the circumstances under which they were made or the results that they had on the adversary? EDIT: OK, I re-read the original post, and Manny specifically asks for greatest range.  But since that has been settled (basically) might we reconsider the definition of 'Greatest' to include factors other than range?  How about a short range shot made at night or under adverse sea conditions?  Or an outgunned ship making that one crucial shot that disables or even sinks its superiorly armed adversary?  I'm no  naval historian, but this line of questioning Manny threw out has definately piqued my curiousity...

subfixer wrote:

BigJim wrote: subfixer wrote: C'mon, Coast Guard Bob!  The question was longest distance not just best shot, Ah com'on, yer a subfixer! From my periscope, the subject above clearly states "Greatest ship vs ship shot ever made". To which I will put into nomination The U.S.S. Wahoo with Mush Morton & company in Wewak Harbor with a clutch down the throat torpedo shot on a Japanese destroyer. True, but as with several of Manny's posts, you have to read his initial post to get the full question. He clearly stated "gunfire". Go back and read the first post of this thread, you'll see.

True, he did state gunfire, but is it reasonable to argue that, since subs rarely engaged with deckguns, that some of their torpedo shots bear consideration?  Actually, the title says the 'Greatest' ship vs. ship shot.  Did Manny say in the original post if by, 'greatest', he specifically meant greatest range?  Aren't there some shorter range shots that might be considered 'great' simply due to the circumstances under which they were made or the results that they had on the adversary?

EDIT: OK, I re-read the original post, and Manny specifically asks for greatest range.  But since that has been settled (basically) might we reconsider the definition of 'Greatest' to include factors other than range?  How about a short range shot made at night or under adverse sea conditions?  Or an outgunned ship making that one crucial shot that disables or even sinks its superiorly armed adversary?  I'm no  naval historian, but this line of questioning Manny threw out has definately piqued my curiousity...

BigJim wrote:

subfixer wrote: C'mon, Coast Guard Bob!  The question was longest distance not just best shot, Ah com'on, yer a subfixer! From my periscope, the subject above clearly states "Greatest ship vs ship shot ever made". To which I will put into nomination The U.S.S. Wahoo with Mush Morton & company in Wewak Harbor with a clutch down the throat torpedo shot on a Japanese destroyer.

True, but as with several of Manny's posts, you have to read his initial post to get the full question. He clearly stated "gunfire". Go back and read the first post of this thread, you'll see.

bondoman wrote:

Scharnhorst hits HMS Glorious at 26,300 yards on June 8, 1940, according to Wiki.

subfixer wrote: C'mon, Coast Guard Bob!  The question was longest distance not just best shot,

Mansteins revenge wrote:

Loosen up, bbrowniii...lol...I asked the original question and more clearly defined it when I felt it went out of bounds from my original intent. No big deal. I had an idea that it was the Scharnhorst, but it does seem to be a toss-up, as stikpusher noted...I suppose everyone would come down on their favorite ship with the tie...where's your beef?

Manny, Manny, Manny... let's not make this about us... lets try to stay focused on the issues that are important to the American people...  oops, sorry, still got 'debate speak' going through my head...

I 'gots no beef', Manny.  I was simply restating stikpushers point that what was framed as an 'open question' at the start was appearing to have a predetermined answer, regardless of what information was presented.  I just like trying to stir up the pot every now and again - don't take it personally...

Do hits against mobile remote controlled target ships during exercises count?   

 US, German and Japanese navies all practiced super-range gun fire between wars and achieved enough success during exercises to cause them to believe that hits out to 35,000 yards were practical.     As early as WWI, it was already the doctrine of the Austro-Hungarian navy to begin gunnery engagement at 26,000 yards.   

So 26-27,000 yards were the longest ranged hits achieved in combat.   The longest range gunnery hit from one moving ship against another in both combat and exercise, ever, is almost certainly in greatly excess of 26-27,000 yards.    

Mansteins revenge wrote:

bbrowniii wrote:  Mansteins revenge wrote:  stikpusher wrote: OK, second was Israel vs Syria, Oct 73 Battle of Latakia. My memory was hazy about the foe, but it was the Yom Kippur war as I had believed. Here is a link http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4279   What was the longest distance a ship scored a hit w/ gunfire against another ship in history? There you go, Manny.  The original question.  No where does it mention whether the firing or the target ship had to be mobile or stationary....  I gotta go with Stikpusher on this one - seems like you have an answer that you decided on and are rejecting any other considerations out of hand... If mobility is a crucial component to your question, what about the info from Wiki that I posted on the last page regarding Warspite?: From the Wiki entry on the HMS Warspite (emphasis mine): "During the Battle of Calabria she was credited with achieving the longest range gunnery hit from a moving ship to a moving target in history. This was a hit on the Giulio Cesare at a range of approximately 26,000 yards (see also the Scharnhorst, which scored a hit on the Glorious at approximately the same distance, in June 1940)." This seems to suggest that it is not clear cut whether Scharnhorst or Warspite should be given the status you wish to bestow... Loosen up, bbrowniii...lol...I asked the original question and more clearly defined it when I felt it went out of bounds from my original intent. No big deal. I had an idea that it was the Scharnhorst, but it does seem to be a toss-up, as stikpusher noted...I suppose everyone would come down on their favorite ship with the tie...where's your beef?

goodthing we're talking about ship to ship hits. The Battleship New Jersey recorded several hits at max range on land targets west of Tam Key in late 1968 (over 20 miles. Rounds were fired one at a time, and the first hit was adjusted off a white smoke spotter round. Next call was "right 800; up two hundred" with round dead on the haystack.

    There was also the deal with the New Jersey shelling a mountain way east of Beruit after they blew the Marine barricks up.

gary

bbrowniii wrote:

Mansteins revenge wrote:  stikpusher wrote: OK, second was Israel vs Syria, Oct 73 Battle of Latakia. My memory was hazy about the foe, but it was the Yom Kippur war as I had believed. Here is a link http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4279   What was the longest distance a ship scored a hit w/ gunfire against another ship in history? There you go, Manny.  The original question.  No where does it mention whether the firing or the target ship had to be mobile or stationary....  I gotta go with Stikpusher on this one - seems like you have an answer that you decided on and are rejecting any other considerations out of hand... If mobility is a crucial component to your question, what about the info from Wiki that I posted on the last page regarding Warspite?: From the Wiki entry on the HMS Warspite (emphasis mine): "During the Battle of Calabria she was credited with achieving the longest range gunnery hit from a moving ship to a moving target in history. This was a hit on the Giulio Cesare at a range of approximately 26,000 yards (see also the Scharnhorst, which scored a hit on the Glorious at approximately the same distance, in June 1940)." This seems to suggest that it is not clear cut whether Scharnhorst or Warspite should be given the status you wish to bestow...

Mansteins revenge wrote:

stikpusher wrote: OK, second was Israel vs Syria, Oct 73 Battle of Latakia. My memory was hazy about the foe, but it was the Yom Kippur war as I had believed. Here is a link http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4279   What was the longest distance a ship scored a hit w/ gunfire against another ship in history?

There you go, Manny.  The original question.  No where does it mention whether the firing or the target ship had to be mobile or stationary....  I gotta go with Stikpusher on this one - seems like you have an answer that you decided on and are rejecting any other considerations out of hand...

If mobility is a crucial component to your question, what about the info from Wiki that I posted on the last page regarding Warspite?:

From the Wiki entry on the HMS Warspite (emphasis mine):

"During the Battle of Calabria she was credited with achieving the longest range gunnery hit from a moving ship to a moving target in history. This was a hit on the Giulio Cesare at a range of approximately 26,000 yards (see also the Scharnhorst, which scored a hit on the Glorious at approximately the same distance, in June 1940)."

This seems to suggest that it is not clear cut whether Scharnhorst or Warspite should be given the status you wish to bestow...

subfixer wrote:

I think the Egyptians sunk an Israeli destroyer with missile firing patrol boats.

Yup, they sure did.  I posted something on it earlier in this thread (or maybe one of the other many nautical discussions sparked by Manny).  There is a story on it in the most trecent (October 2008) Naval History.  The title is The Cruise Missle Comes of Age.  On 21 October 1967, the Israeli destroyer Eilat was hit and sunk by three Styx cruise missles fired from a pair of Egyptian patrol boats.  Out of a crew of 199, 47 sailors were killed, 91 wounded.

According to this link, it becomes a toss up between Scharnhorst and Warspite for hits fired from a moving ship against a moving ship. This is primaily due to there rangefinder/determination issue noted here. Roughly 26,000 to 26,400 yards.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-006.htm

But for overall ship to ship hit, I have yet to find any confirmed (with radar or other electronic instrument) hit further than USS Massachusetts/Jean Bart of 28,000-29,000 yards of moving vs stationary. This was measured with radar.

I was also able to turn up some reports of 30,000+ yard straddles, but no hits, at Leyte Gulf off Samar by the Japanese (34,000yards), and Iowa Class  battleships (35,700yards) off Truk in Feb 1944

In all cases, some very good shooting.

stikpusher wrote:

OK, second was Israel vs Syria, Oct 73 Battle of Latakia. My memory was hazy about the foe, but it was the Yom Kippur war as I had believed. Here is a link http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4279

OK, second was Israel vs Syria, Oct 73 Battle of Latakia. My memory was hazy about the foe, but it was the Yom Kippur war as I had believed.

Here is a link

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4279

    Distances???

            My computer is being s   l   o   w...

 I'll try to look it up later.

                    60

subfixer wrote:

That is just short of the horizon. I think (if I remember correctly) that at about a height of 90 feet above the ship's waterline the visible horizon is twenty miles on a clear day. At 2,000 yards per nautical mile, that would put those two 26,000 yard shots at 13 nautical miles away. Pretty good shootin'! I wonder how high above the waterline their gun directors were.

 As I remember, from the waterline or from deck (not sure of height) due to the earths curvature, the line of sight is more like 15 miles. But my memory isn't the best anymore.

 Have there been no "modern" engagements with missiles?

                         60

Now now Manny, you're changing the rules. You simply asked for the longest distance, ship to ship. No mentioning of manuevering/at speed was made. It sounds as if you had a pre conceived answer already in mind, rather than an all encompassing question. 

Yes a stationary target is easier to hit, but  from a manuevering firing platform, it is still not an easy feat. Not to mention that the US fleet was being enaged by French Naval and shore based forces. (I know that US Naval air engaged Vichy French air at the same time, but I am not sure if they were attempting to attack US Naval units.)  I will not say this is the longest distance hit recorded, but it certainly ranks up there.

Aside from Glorious' aircraft, including her escorts, there were no major threats to the Scahrnhorst and Gneisenau, in that unique action.

stikpusher wrote:

During the duel between USS Masssachusetts and the French Battleship Jean Bart on the morning of Nov 8th 1942, USS Massachusetts engaged at ranges between 24,000 and 29,000 yards. USS Massachusets was escorting the Western Task Force for the Allied invasion of North Africa, while Jean Bart was moored in Casablanca harbor. Massachusetts fired nine broadsides of 16 inch shells at Jean Bart and scored five direct hits during the fight. The first hit was scored at a distance of between 24,000 and 25,000 yards, destroying the empty aft 6 inch shell magazine on Jean Bart. The last two hits ocurred at ranges between 28,000 and 29,000 yards, and also inflicted the most serious damage during the fight. In addition to knocking Jean Bart out of the fight for the day, three merchant ships moored near Jean Bart were sunk by near misses from Massachusetts.

Yes she was. Her primary fire control was Mk3 radar and the spotter planes were a back up. This was also something of a fleet action as many of the French ships in Casablanca harbor, cruisers, destroyers, and submarines, sortied to engage US forces, thinking that they were again being attacked by the Royal Navy as had happened in 1940. USS Masachusetts also engaged this fleet as well as the French shore batteries, taking several hits in the process. At the conclusion of the sea battle, the French Navy had lost eight submarines and four destroyers sunk, Jean Bart, light cruiser Primauguet, and two destroyers disabled. USS Massachusetts and the cruiser USS Tuscaloosa were both narrowly missed by torpedoes from submarines during the fight.

On her deck were guns as big as steers and shells as big as trees

I always thought that the steers and trees should be reversed.

Uh oh... but wait... perhaps the verdict is not so clearcut:

From the Wiki entry on the HMS Warspite (emphasis mine):

"During the Battle of Calabria she was credited with achieving the longest range gunnery hit from a moving ship to a moving target in history. This was a hit on the Giulio Cesare at a range of approximately 26,000 yards (see also the Scharnhorst, which scored a hit on the Glorious at approximately the same distance, in June 1940)."

Well, they do say that Wikipedia is your friend:

Scharnhorst's salvos hit Glorious at 16:32, before her torpedo-bombers could be launched. ^[11] Scharnhorst's second salvo, at 16:38, struck Glorious at the extreme range of 24,000m (26,300yd), one of the longest range hits ever recorded.

Although, it does say 'one of the longest range hits ever recorded' not THE longest... I wonder what others are out there in the same 'ballpark'...