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Lindberg Jolly Roger/ La Flore...my version

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  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:47 PM
An excellent "step, by step" would be Lennarth Petersson's "Rigging Period Ship Models". Each page details the run of the line, from fixed end, to pin in the rail. For the "Jolly Roger", probably the most appropriate.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:10 PM

I have a copy of about every book listed here in addition to many others, and I spent a decade crewing on a replica brig and several schooners to "learn the ropes".

My recommendation to a new modeler is to select a single time period, or vessel and learn it inside and out. Learn how the rig works for one point in time, then it is easy to move forward and backwards.

If you are interested in the Revoulutionary and Napoleanic periods, my suggestions for "Rigging 101" books are:

1.)  Harland's Seamanship in the Age of Sail ($50-70 used) as a basic reference on how the rigs worked and the sailing charateristics of ships,

2.) Lennarth Petersson's Rigging Period Ship Models, (under $20 used) has over 100 pages of excellent drawings, in the same format as most modeling instructions, but in exquisite detail. It is an excellent primer on the lines and their placement, but lacks dimensional tables. His instructions are based on a particular model of a 19th century English naval frigate, and are representative of the general rigging for most ships during the period of La Flore through the Charles W. Morgan, including the Constitution,

3.)...and, the reprint of Steels Elements of Mastmaking, Sailmaking and Rigging (~$40 used)  provides tables of dimensions for spars and lines (circa 1794) that the other two references are lacking.

 So, for about the price of a new Constitution kit and goodies, you can have enough information at your fingertips to expertly rig a model from www.addall.com

Petersson's book will provide the most "bang for the buck", if you can't afford all three. 

 

 

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:25 AM

The Oxford volume is another good one - though it goes far beyond sailing ship rigging.  I've never bought a copy of Marquardt's Eighteenth-Century Rigs and Rigging - largely because (a) I've never encountered one at a price I could afford, and (b) our library has a copy (which, being faculty, I can check out for as long as I want any time I need it).  I do like that book; my opinion of Marquardt went down considerably after I gave his Anatomy of the Ship volume on the Constitution a serious look, but the earlier, more general book seems to be remarkably thorough and reliable.  And the man can draw.

Serious ship modelers need to be aware that virtually all the rigging diagrams in plastic sailing ship kits are simplified to one degree or another.  The big Revell Cutty Sark and Constitution may be the best in that respect; the diagrams in those kits at least make sense.  Revell's smaller Golden Hind and Mayflower kits also have respectable, sensible rigging drawings.  Even those, though, are simplified to some degree.  (The real ships had far more than two sizes of blocks, for instance, and dozens of different sizes of rigging line.)  The manufacturers have to aim their kits at a particular market, and have decided (probably correctly) that the vast majority of people who buy such kits won't attempt to reproduce anywhere near all of the real ships' rigging.  So the designers draw up a diagram that, they hope, strikes a reasonable balance:  it makes the rigging look impressively complicated, but doesn't require months or years of work on the part of the modeler. 

To my eye, the designers' rate of success in that regard varies a great deal from manufacturer to manufacturer.  The late, lamented Imai's rigging diagrams were generally pretty good; they simplified the rigging of, for instance, the Cutty Sark without turning it into an arbitrary collection of threads.  Revell's and Pyro's rigging diagrams weren't bad - especially in the larger-scale kits.  Heller's, on the other hand, frequently straddled the borderline between mere inaccuracy and outright irrationality.  The unfortunate truth of the matter seems to have been that, for most of the years Heller was making sailing ship kits, its designers were enormously talented artisans who knew next to nothing about how ships work.  With their most recent efforts - the 1/100 Victory and 1/75 Reale galley, for instance - they gave signs that they were starting to learn how rigging works.  Shortly thereafter, unfortunately, Heller got out of the sailing ship business.

The saddest part of this story, perhaps, is that it has to be written in the past tense.  Neither Revell, Heller, or Airfix has issued a new sailing ship kit in at least twenty years.  (Caveat:  a few of the ones from Revell Germany may be a little younger than that - but not much.  The first sailing ship from Revell USA was the 1/192 Constitution, originally released in 1956.  The last was the beautiful little Viking ship, in 1977.  The American branch of the company has now been out of the sailing ship business considerably longer than it was in it.)  The biggest bright spot I can see on the scene is the Russian manufacturer Zvezda, who released a large-scale medieval cog a few years ago.  (It's currently being sold by Revell Europe.  I was hoping for more from Zvezda, but so far nothing.)  Oh - and the British company Emhar recently released a 1/72 model of the Gokstad ship - which, unfortunately, duplicates the Revell Viking ship on a slightly smaller scale.  Oh, well....

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:43 AM

You might also consider as a general reference The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea, a dictionary of all things nautical; but as John Tilley has said there is no easy fix to understanding the terms or how to rig models, but  it does help to understand what a line is for.

I suspect  like most other modellers I started off rigging by reference to the kit instructions, without really understanding what I was doing, as most kit instructions generally give scant detail of the riggings terms, Heller are a prime example of this.

It does take more than a passing interest to get into this stuff, my own knowledge and collection of books has been built up over many years, but my real understanding of the subject started with The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships by C.N. Longridge, I found  his narrative explanations, and drawings invaluable.

My well thumbed copy along with Lees, Harland, and Marquardt,- Eighteenth -century Rigs and Rigging are my prime references for Eighteenth century sail.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:11 AM

I don't know of a single source that contains a glossary of all the rigging-related terms you're likely to bump into in building any sailing ship model.  But the Campbell and Monfeld (I misspelled the latter's name earlier; sorry about that) books offer a good start.  Lees also has a good general-purpose glossary; so does Dana, but his is restricted to the practices of his own time (i.e., the mid-nineteenth century).

Another good one, published quite a few years back and kind of hard to find nowadays, is The Visual Encyclopedia of Nautical Terms Under Sail, edited by B.W. Bathe and Alan Villiers.  It's been out of print for a long time, but I just found some reasonably-priced used copies on the web:   http://search.barnesandnoble.com/used/listingResults.asp?&stage=csListingResults&WID=1377173 .

If you're interested in how the rigging, spars, and sails actually worked, a superb source is John Harland's Seamanship in the Age of Sail.  It contains hundreds of beautifully-rendered sketches showing just how the rigging functioned, and what evolutions had to be gone through to get a sailing ship from place to place.  Highly recommended.

Maybe the most comprehensive glossary of all is to be found in the appendices of the various volumes in the Conway's History of the Ship series.  If you really want to dive into the subject with both feet, the twelve volumes in that set would form an excellent foundation for a nautical library.  They aren't cheap, but the paperback editions aren't too bad - and used copies aren't too hard to find.  These are also the kind of books that public libraries are likely to have.

I think a lot of modelers don't realize it, but one excellent source of information when it comes to vocabulary is (drum roll, please) Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.  The vast majority of English-language nautical terms are in there.  More than once I've been surprised to find that Webster defines a term more clearly and rationally than any of the more specialist publications.

Nautical vocabulary can be confusing, occasionally irrational, and sometimes sort of overwhelming.  And some sources make it more complicated than it needs to be.  The unavoidable truth is that it does take a while to get familiar with this stuff.  (I've been messing around with it for over fifty years, and I'm still quite capable of bumping into a term I don't recognize.)  But the above books will get a newcomer off to a solid, reliable start.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Lamarque,Texas
Posted by uspsjuan on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:00 AM
jtilly, you provide a good example of what i am talking about with your refference to belaying pins. when an individule is trying to pass on information, they often get us novies lost in technicle terms. not a complaint, just pointing out the need for a glossry of termsfor us newbies.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 15, 2008 5:27 PM

There are quite a few books out there that explain how rigging works.  It's important to be aware, though, that rigging evolved over the centuries; a source that's useful for one period isn't likely to be of much help in building a model of a ship that was built a hundred years either earlier or later.  For heaven's sake, don't try to rig a model of the Mayflower on the basis of the plans of the Cutty Sark.

Here are some recommendations for starters:

General: George Campbell, The Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay.  (A terrific book, intended primarily as an introduction to building solid-hull wood kits, but valuable to anybody getting into the hobby.  A person who learned everything in this book would be well on the way toward being knowledgable about sailing ship technology.  It's a great way to learn the basic concepts of rigging.  And it's cheap.)  Wolfram zu Monfelt, Historic Ship Models.  (This is perhaps the best of the more recent, general texts on ship modeling.  It has a strong European slant, and covers such a broad range of topics that it can't deal with any of them in much depth.  But it's generally a pretty sound work.)

Late sixteenth, seventeenth, and very early eighteenth centuries:  R.C. Anderson, The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, 1600-1720.  (An old classic, originally published in the 1920s, that's never been surpassed.  Another book by the same author, Seventeenth-Century Rigging, is essentially a revised edition, with the non-English materials omitted.  I recommend the original - which is now available in a ridiculously cheap paperback edition from Dover Books.)

British (and, generally speaking, American) sailing warships of all centuries:  James Lees, The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1625-1860.  (Expensive, but comprehensive; a basic book that belongs in every serious ship modeler's library.)

Eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries:  David Steel, Elements of Mastmaking, Sailmaking, and Rigging (the title varies slightly by edition); Darcy Lever, The Young Officer's Sheet Anchor.  I particularly recommend the recent reprint of Lever from, of all places, Lee Valley Tools: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=40983&cat=1,46096,46100 .  In addition to the complete text of the 1808 edition, it contains additions made by an American editor in 1858.

French eighteenth-century warships:  any of the works of Jean Boudriot.  Unfortunately they're quite expensive, but they can be found in libraries - and anybody who's ever bought one of them regards it as a good investment.

Nineteenth-century American (and, generally speaking, British) merchant ships:  Richard Henry Dana, The Seaman's Friend; George Biddlecombe, The Art of Rigging.  (The former is also available in a nice, cheap Dover paperback edition.  The latter is in fact a revision of the work by Steel mentioned above, updated to the mid-nineteenth century.)

Merchant ships, mid-nineteenth century to the end of the sailing ship period:  Harold Underhill, Masting and Rigging:  The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier.

There are plenty of others, but those are some I've been using for many years; they'll get the newcomer off to a good start. 

There's no substitute for a good, reliable, well-drawn set of plans for the particular ship you're reproducing.  The Societe des Amis de Musee de la Marine publishes a series of plans of French warships, including La Flore; that's what I'd seek out if I were making a serious attempt at that old Lindberg kit.  Unfortunately those plans tend to be pretty expensive for what you get, and in the U.S. they aren't easy to find.

It's also worth remembering the difference between primary sources (those written by people of the period they're talking about) and secondary sources (those written by other people).  Steel, Lever, Biddlecombe, and Dana are primary sources.  Anderson, Lees, and Underhill are secondary sources.  When a discrepancy arises between a primary source and a secondary source - well, that's a subject for another forum.  It's a mistake to assume that all the information a model builder wants to know ever got written down.  There is, for instance, remarkably little in the way of primary sources about belaying pin plans.  If a rigging diagram doesn't indicate the precise places where all the lines are to be belayed, it's often because the person drawing the diagram didn't know.  And when a secondary source does include a complete belaying plan, take it with at least a small grain of salt; the guy who drew it almost certainly was indulging in a certain amount of guesswork.

Hope that helps a little.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Monday, December 15, 2008 10:28 AM

as of now for rigging i found a book that lists the parts of the rigging on how and what knots are tied to them. it's pretty handy i got it from model-expo. it's called The Art of Rigging by George Biddlecombe. i read in the Q section of FSM that if a person was to submit an article on tall ship building then they would have a better than average chance at getting published. i know that my ships are not that great but i figure i would give it a try on my next build.

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    July 2005
Posted by caramonraistlin on Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:22 PM

Greetings:

 

I know how you feel. About two years ago I tackled Revells 1/96 scale kit of the USS Constitution. I was daunted. The kits instructions were fairly detailed when it came to the rigging but they didn't show everything so I searched on the net for something that would explain this mysterious world. I purchased a book titled "Masting & Rigging the Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier" BY Harold Underhill. This book was a treasure trove of information. One had to dig a little but it just about explained/showed the ins and outs of a full rigged ship. I also purchased another book titled "Rigging Peropd Ship Models" by Lennarth Peterson. The author wrote this book as he too wanted to learn rigging step by step. This book is easier to follow than Mr. Underhill's and should be readily available on the Internet such as Amazon.com. I would highly recommend either or both as they should both help tremendously.

 

Sincerely

 

Michael Lacey

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Lamarque,Texas
Posted by uspsjuan on Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:00 PM
I agree with BigJim, step by step inst. on rigging with an explanation of terms would be a godsend. I get lost reading some of these postings with all their technical terms. Yes, I know a little research on my part is all it takes. Just would like to make a nice ship for a friend with out worring about historical accuracy. diddnt think there were historical records on pirate ships anyway.
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Roanoke, Virginia
Posted by BigJim on Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:33 PM

What I would really like to see is a step by step instruction manual on how to rig one of these things!

I love looking at the nice craftmanship of rigging that you guys put into these ships, but, after hours of trying to study the photos, all of the lines seem to run together.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Friday, December 12, 2008 3:17 PM

Len - very nicely done!  I love sailing ships but alas my skills do not reach that far. This may be a good one for me to get and build ‘as is" for my own enjoyment. I tried the Revell "Pirate ship" for my daughter (huge Pirates of the Carribean fan), but that kit is an abomination.  I will look for this one to build with her, thanks for sharing the pics!

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by lenroberto on Friday, December 12, 2008 11:16 AM
That's a beauty enemeink...what else is there in this hobby if you are not having fun right?

-Len
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Friday, December 12, 2008 10:40 AM

 lenroberto wrote:
I needed a break- from commission builds so I pulled this old box out and just went with it. Colors are wrong, rigging is probably wrong...but it was just for fun. I guess it is a captured pirate ship! Really a nice kit. Still a bit more to do on anchor rigging.

]

Have fun - happy holidays...

-Len

Great looking build!! This is one of my favorite kits so far. I built this kit a couple of months ago as well and took the same approach. I didn't buy anything for this kit. i just used what colors i had and went with it. I had turned mine into a dirty privateer that probably would have been burned if ever captured. I had bought two of these at my local hobby shop in the discount bin. one was intended to be a pirate ship and the other i'll build as the la flore. here's a build log that i did for it. i used this kit as a test bed for doing oil washes.

/forums/971035/ShowPost.aspx

 

 

 

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by lenroberto on Friday, December 12, 2008 7:30 AM
Hi Rod- thanks

I started this about 3 weeks ago- putting in around 15-30 minutes average a night...

Not a hard kit to build except for aligning the 2 decks into the hull and the stern piece was not a good fit either...

Len
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:33 PM

Len

   Very nice good looking build. How long of a build ? I know your usally pretty steady at getting things done.

Rod

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:51 PM

Thats what I love here so much - I love internet!

If you look for, you can get so good answers!!! I learn so much - and I should be here much more often - than I would have seen that older discussion.

Prof. Tilley - thank you for that link and the explanations. I will link that thread into the Modellboard where there is another build. This CD seems very valuable!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:47 AM

Mighty nice model, lenroberto.

We've had a number of interesting discussions about this kit here in the Forum.  It is indeed a reissue of the old Lindberg French frigate La Flore.  That kit was originally issued, I'm fairly certain, in the late sixties - along with a German "convoy ship" called the Wappen von Hamburg.  (That one is now being sold under the silly name "Captain Kidd."  Oh, the marketing ploys these companies adopt these days.)

Just what ship it actually represents has been the subject of considerable discussion, because the name Flore was a popular one in the eighteenth-century French navy.  (At least four frigates carried the name.) The kit pretty obviously is based on a fine old model in the Musee de la Marine, in Paris.  Jean Boudriot, the most distinguished authority on eighteenth-century French shipbuilding, published a thorough study of the various frigates named Flore some years ago.  His conclusion:  the Musee de la Marine model doesn't represent any of the actual frigates named La Flore.  He thinks it's based on a design for a ship that never got built.

The story is extremely convoluted; I'd have to go back to M. Boudriot's article (which was published, in English, in the American magazine The Nautical Research Journal, and is conveniently available on the set of CDs that the Journal sells) to sort it out again.  We discussed the topic at some length in another Forum thread:  /forums/967718/ShowPost.aspx .

As I noted in that thread, we shouldn't blame Lindberg for mixing up the history of the various ships.  Plenty of other people have done that - including, it seems, a President of the United States.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:36 AM

 lenroberto wrote:
Believe it or not- i do- I find rigging very therapeutic. After a couple of client builds where everything has to be just right- I like to basically ignore instructions for a while!

THATs what I hope for. I restared to interest in old sailing ships and modelling - but due to having little kids I just could not start with it. But one of the "goals" was to have a hobby which "brings my feet back on the ground" - after trouble and stress in office, after hurry and traffic jam - I hoped that the quiet and careful rigging would help relaxing me.

But I fear I will loose patience ...

I bought a Revell-Constitution - without rigging and I will start with this as "exercise" at first. THEN I will see if its therapeutic for me as well Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by lenroberto on Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:16 AM
Thanks- Marcus K.

Believe it or not- i do- I find rigging very therapeutic. After a couple of client builds where everything has to be just right- I like to basically ignore instructions for a while!

Len

www.p51mustangmodels.com


  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by Marcus.K. on Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:09 AM

Hello Len

nice job! It looks good that way. You do things like this as a break? Wow!

 

We discussed in another forum a lot about the kit - and it seems there are two historical models showing the ship:

Look here: 

It was the frensh shipe Vestale in the french royal navy, then cauhgt by the british and commissened as "HMS Flora", then left on american shores when the british left America. The Americans sold it back to revolutionariy France where she was named Flore américaine. And later it was again captured by the british navy - and later scrapped. Quite an interesting story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Vestale_(1756)

(I do not get it! My link does not work and I can not fix it! Please add a ")" in the web-adress and you will get to the wiki-article about the Vestale - Sorry for that!)

 

and here

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset+Tree/Asset+Viewers/Slide+Show+Viewer.htm?guid={0284F298-E835-429E-9D15-D2F2EF431F2D}&type=slideshow&num=2&cmsmode=

and here

http://rimbr.chez.com/flore01.htm

this is a building-report in a german forum - but its not yet finished.

http://www.modellboard.net/index.php?topic=24134.30

 

I believe it is truely a fine model kit worth spending time for it!

  • Member since
    December 2002
Lindberg Jolly Roger/ La Flore...my version
Posted by lenroberto on Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:16 AM
I needed a break- from commission builds so I pulled this old box out and just went with it. Colors are wrong, rigging is probably wrong...but it was just for fun. I guess it is a captured pirate ship! Really a nice kit. Still a bit more to do on anchor rigging.






Have fun - happy holidays...

-Len
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