Colour of sails for a Portuguese Man O War?

Good morning

Try these all the ships in the picture are the same one

Portugese Carracks off a Rocky Coast

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/PaintingDetail.cfm?ID=BHC0705

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=BHC0705

http://books.google.com/books?id=wba1CdOTRgQC&pg=PT1&lpg=PT1&dq=Portuguese+Carracks+off+a+Rocky+Coast&source=web&ots=BKh1tFYLG3&sig=0eJjPD71Nt23LH-Gi7M_YCxL5QI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPP1,M1

when ever i paint sails i uses an acrylic tan. it gives the right amount of transparancy that you need for a sail. sails won't stay white on a ship forever.

starduster wrote:

Phantom Ghost, do you have any photos of the Santa Catarina ? I have that model but first I'm working on the 1/90th scale heller Conquistador which is a real headace building the aft section, these sail colors are my question as well, but I'm thinking along the lines of using thin paper soaking in starch over the provided sails from the kit for a billowing effect.  Karl

I'm afraid I don't starduster.   I think there's a picture over on modelwarshipgallery of a built up kit but that might not be accurately painted and if I remember the main sail is missing for some reason.  When I find it I'll post a link.  

I might paint the sails on mine a different colour anyway (just for variety from my other models) but I suppose looking at those pics provided here the sails would be the usual off white.   When I say off-white I don't really mean something like a cream or buff colour because most sails that I've seen are more white than off white.   I use the description off white so it doesn't sound like I'm saying they're a brilliant white.....if that makes any sense?

I've thought about getting the Conquistador ship too.  What are the sails on that kit made of? 

PhantomGhost wrote:

Thanks for the info and pictures guys!   Looking at those pics it seems the sails were the usual off white colour on those carracks.   Just a correction too.....in my original question I can see I made an error.   I asked whether the sails were painted when I should imagine the sails were dyed in those days, but maybe that only applied to non off white sails????

I think you may be thinking of the dark-red dyed sails of later working boats, such as Thames ABrges, smacks and the like.  These were soaked in a mixture commonly called 'cutch' in the UK, which was made with bark, fish oil, and a variety of unpleasant substances designed to make the sails waterproof and last a lot longer.  As far as i know, this was never used on ships in the period of the Portuguese carrack, or indeed any ships until much later

starduster wrote:

The sails are very thin vaccum formed plastic, but I like the way they are billowing so I'll attempt to fill them with clay to keep the shape then drape thin parchment paper soaked in starch to keep the shape over those vaccum sails, then color them with water based paints. I'm looking to create a diorama with the ship in a rough sea. Karl

A diorama sounds a great idea!   That must be the kit that Zvezda released recently.   I was hoping that it might have had injection plastic sails as I don't like vac formed ones.   I know not everyone likes injection plastic sails but I think they look great once painted up.  Unfortunately for me there's only a few half decent ship kits with injection sails.

searat12 wrote:

PhantomGhost wrote: Thanks for the info and pictures guys!   Looking at those pics it seems the sails were the usual off white colour on those carracks.   Just a correction too.....in my original question I can see I made an error.   I asked whether the sails were painted when I should imagine the sails were dyed in those days, but maybe that only applied to non off white sails???? The color of natural canvas is sort of off-white color.  No, the sails for carracks and galleons were never dyed to my knowledge, although some might be embroidered with large red crosses, coats of arms, etc. (as seen here: http://www.armed-combat.com/armada.htm I think you may be thinking of the dark-red dyed sails of later working boats, such as Thames ABrges, smacks and the like.  These were soaked in a mixture commonly called 'cutch' in the UK, which was made with bark, fish oil, and a variety of unpleasant substances designed to make the sails waterproof and last a lot longer.  As far as i know, this was never used on ships in the period of the Portuguese carrack, or indeed any ships until much later

Ah, that pretty much explains it then.   So really speaking for accuracy I'll have to paint the sails a natural canvas colour.   Apart from those ships you mentioned with the red sails the only other ship I can think of is the Alexander Von Humbolt with the green sails.  

searat12 wrote:

I haven't heard anything about Zvesda releasing a carrack model, just a Cog....

As far as I can make out it's a reissue of an old Revell ship possibly the Sao Gabriel???   

Even though the Catarina looks a bit odd because of it's high forward deck and it would most probably sink if it hit the water because it looks so top heavy it's still quite a nice kit (though most probably innacurate) and seems so far to go together well.   Does anyone know when this kit was last released?

Actually, the Carrack (also called a Nau in Portuguese) was very ungainly and extreme to modern eyes, but in fact, the kit actually is a pretty good model of a Carrack!  These were the largest ships of their day, and sailed to Japan, and around the world, and made up a fairly large part of the Spanish Armada as well.  Here are a few contemporary paintings of Carracks, both Portuguese, English, and Spanish.  Compare them with your model, and you see they really ARE that high and unweatherly!

searat12 wrote:

Actually, the Carrack (also called a Nau in Portuguese) was very ungainly and extreme to modern eyes, but in fact, the kit actually is a pretty good model of a Carrack!  These were the largest ships of their day, and sailed to Japan, and around the world, and made up a fairly large part of the Spanish Armada as well.  Here are a few contemporary paintings of Carracks, both Portuguese, English, and Spanish.  Compare them with your model, and you see they really ARE that high and unweatherly!

I'm sure I read somewhere that the Pyro kit is a bit too ungainly even for a Carrack but they sure look ungainly on those pics you've provided, so maybe it is a good depiction of the real ships as you say.   One thing I  notice is that the front and rear decks slope in more on the paintings than the model.

starduster wrote:

Phantom Ghost, do you have any photos of the Santa Catarina ? I have that model but first I'm working on the 1/90th scale heller Conquistador which is a real headace building the aft section, these sail colors are my question as well, but I'm thinking along the lines of using thin paper soaking in starch over the provided sails from the kit for a billowing effect.  Karl

Here's the pic I was talking about Starduster -

 http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/misc/sail/santacatarina-ph/ph-index.html

   Phantom Ghost, yes that's the one Ive got still in a box, Im looking forward to building this one as soon as I get the Heller Conquistador done, a similar one can be found at

www.historicships.com called the Caracca atlantica kit mv21, only mine was only $40.00 on Ebay and a lot smaller. I'm adding some aftermarket details like banisters with a bit style as this class of ship did carry elete passengers at times.  Karl

PS Mamoli is the kits mfg.

The hull was tarred a brown colour. The real colour was in bright flags, banners and shields mounted along the upper parts.   Canvas colours on the sails.

starduster wrote:

Phantom Ghost, yes that's the one Ive got still in a box, Im looking forward to building this one as soon as I get the Heller Conquistador done, a similar one can be found at www.historicships.com called the Caracca atlantica kit mv21, only mine was only $40.00 on Ebay and a lot smaller. I'm adding some aftermarket details like banisters with a bit style as this class of ship did carry elete passengers at times.  Karl PS Mamoli is the kits mfg.

Some nice ship models on there!

 PhantomGhost, yes those are quite nice only a little spendy, . Karl

   The instructions have 1:90 so I checked the model with an HO scale figure 1:87th scale and it seems to be ok. Karl

         Hi PhantomGhost, I  have an photo account in Flickr so that I may show off some of my modeling progress on my Conquistador build, I just hope this link works. Karl                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/34942227@N07/

starduster wrote:

The instructions have 1:90 so I checked the model with an HO scale figure 1:87th scale and it seems to be ok. Karl

Thank you very much Karl. You are sure that it's 1:90 isn't it ? Because it seemed a bit small for that scale to me, I tought rather something like 1:144 or 1:150.