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Making Flags/Flag making resources

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  • Member since
    February 2006
Making Flags/Flag making resources
Posted by Grymm on Monday, February 9, 2009 8:52 AM

I'm gathering resources for handmaking flags for the Soleil Royale as well as remaking better flags for my Chebec and La Reale De France.

I've searched through the forums and have found several references to making flags from foil, which I like the idea of.  But I can't find any good "how to's".  I've searched the web and can't find anything.

Does anyone know any good resources or websites I can go to?

Thanks,

Grymm

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Monday, February 9, 2009 10:08 AM

Hello Grymm,

I have found that kitchen foil is a great medium for smaller flags and on smaller scale models as it can be persuaded to hang quite naturally.

The trick is to keep the foil flat and smooth whilst the design is painted on, and not tear the foil when cutting out and handling.

I'm not so sure about larger scale models such as the ensign on the 1:100 Soleil Royal, where I suspect it may become less manageable, and require very careful handling to avoid any creases as opposed to folds.

The other factor of course is how complicated is the design, and how good is your artwork.

Having said that it would cost little to have a go with say a simple design such as the Cross of St George to test your dexterity.

I used a metal primer to coat the foil, then painted on the design, even so careful handling was required not to 'chip' the paint when fixing the to halyard, which I did with a smear of super-glue.

I've never tried it but I wonder if a foil insert between the two sides of a paper flag would allow for a more natural hang.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, February 9, 2009 5:45 PM

I used the foil paper sandwich technique on the banners and flags of my La Reale De France.  It looks decent enough but they look a little thick, making them out of scale. 

I remember this website that showed the flags of this modeller who made fantastic looking scale flags for sailing ships.  I just can't remember where it was and no amount of googling is helping...

I'm experimenting with foil...but, should I shape the flag then paint, or paint then shape?  I have decals for the large flag on the stern.  Luckily, all other banners and pennants on this French vessel are plain white, making painting a snap...

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:41 AM

It's so annoying to have these things in the back of your mind and you just can't remember where you've seen them - happens to me all the time!

When I did my flags I painted them first and then very gingerly rolled and shaped them.

With decals it may be worth trying out some old spare ones if you have them, to test the effect on foil before you commit to the proper ones.

I wouldn't fancy trying to paint numerous fleur-de-lis on an ensign that large!

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:36 PM

I used tissue paper for the flags on my S/R, and i think they look quite well. Basically using the same technique for making sails ie: mixture of white glue, water, and soap. What this allows you do once you have it painted, and decals applied, and everything is dry is to attach it to temporary pole in a verticle position, and gently mist it with water, once wet it will start to sag under it's own weight, and with a little manipulating can be formed into a fairly decent realistic shape.

 

Michael

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:47 PM

I've had a Heller Reale in the attic awaiting my attention for several years now, and I have to confess one of the big reasons I haven't started is that I haven't figured out a solution to the problem of the flags.  I agree that the paper on which the ones in the kit are printed is just too heavy - particularly when it's folded over double.  I've thought about simply making copies with my printer (which does pretty well in such work) on a high-quality, lighter paper (drafting vellum, maybe).  That probably would be an improvement, and with another set of flags might work fine.  But these in particular have lots of gold on them - and there's no way the printer can reproduce the gold ink credibly.  And I'm not at all sure I could paint all those gold designs with acceptable consistency.

Years ago Model Shipwright magazine ran a series, by a fine modeler named P. Heriz-Smith, on building a Reale from scratch.  (I think that series may have been partially responsible for that vessel type's popularity as a model subject in subsequent years.)  He painstakingly painted all the fleurs de lis on dyed silk, and in the magazine photos the results looked pretty impressive.  Just a few years later I went to the Science Museum in London and saw the model itself.  The red dye had faded to a pale, watery, blotchy pink, pretty thoroughly damaging the overall appearance of the model.  There's a lesson to be learned there.

In wrestling with a problem like this it's useful to start out by considering what the real thing looks like, and how it's made.  Big flags in the sailing ship era (and more recently) frequently were made of extremely open-woven fabric, like very coarse gauze.  (The reason isn't hard to figure out.  Some of those old flags were as big as sails; if they'd filled with wind they would have been unmanageable, and if they got messed up with the rigging they could conceivably mess up the ship's navigation.  Or the wind would have torn them to pieces.)  The old master marine painters often made their flags almost transparent.  Here's a well-known example:  http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=BHC3582 .

Come to think of it, maybe that faded pink of Mr. Heriz-Smith's flags was actually more authentic than the original bright red. 

The museum where I used to work had a blue ensign that had belonged to the R.M.S. Queen Elizabeth.  By the time I got there the mice had eaten it (that was a considerable source of embarrassment to the staff), but I looked at some closeup photos of it.  The weave of the cloth was such that the openings between the strands appeared to be almost an inch across.

A typical flag is made up of one or several large pieces of fabric, depending on the design.  Large areas, such as the stripes and the blue field on an American flag, are made of individual pieces, stitched together.  Relatively small devices, such as the stars on the American flag, are made separately and sewn on, or are embroidered directly onto the fabric.  In the old days, really intricate devices sometimes were painted.  (Lots of surviving American Civil War regimental flags have painted lettering and images on them.) 

Though most people may not be conscious of the fact, how a flag looks to the eye depends heavily on where the light source is.  If the light is behind the flag, the big pieces of fabric are likely to appear translucent (i.e., pale) except at their edges (where they're sewn together and the thickness of the fabric is doubled), and the smaller devices will appear in silhouette.  Take a look at the modern American flag that's shown in the first and last scenes of the movie "Saving Private Ryan."  The sun is behind it.  The white stripes are white, the red stripes are a sort of pale maroon, the blue field is a dull, somewhat pale blue, and the stars are black.

Reproducing all this subtlety in model form is quite a challenge.  I long ago gave up trying to find a fabric with a fine enough weave (except for extremely large-scale work).  My personal preference is fine paper - even tissue paper, of the sort sold for covering flying model aircraft - for flags, painted with thinned watercolor.  (Donald McNarry, I believe, uses old-fashioned cigarette paper.  I haven't tried that.)  I start by drawing the design on normal drafting paper (simply because I have lots of it around), which I then cover with glossy Scotch tape.  I tape the tissue (by the edges) over the pattern, then "trace" the design with a fine brush and watercolor.  The Scotch tape keeps the paint from sticking the tissue to the pattern.  When the paint's dry I cut out the flag, flip it over, and paint the other side.  (Sometimes enough paint has soaked through from the first side that painting the reverse isn't necessary.)  The result is a flag that's at least somewhat translucent. 

One aspect of model flags that deserves attention is the way they're shaped.  It's surprisingly tricky to fold and crease them in a way that's realistic.  The first decision to be made is whether you want them to look like they're drooping naturally or blowing an a breeze.  (If the model has sails, you made the decision when you decided how to handle them.  I do get amused when I see a model with "billowing" sails and drooping flags.)  My vote, generally, is for drooping flags.  My willing suspension of disbelief gets stretched beyond the breaking point when I'm asked to believe a wind is blowing inside a glass case - unless, of course, the model is placed in a diorama and the sails are set.

Some years ago I got hired to do a series of ship drawings for the U.S. Coast Guard Historian's Office, and I wanted to show the flags on the ships blowing in the wind (so the designs of them would be visible).  My efforts to sketch wind-blown flags out of my head were hopeless.  So I picked a breezy, sunny day and took my camera to the plaza in front of the university library, where a nice, big American flag was flapping from a tall flagpole.  In half an hour (during which quite a few people clearly suspected I was out of my mind) I got about a hundred stop-action shots showing what actually happens to a flag when the wind hits it.  Some of them were rather surprising; I was moved to come back on a calm day and shoot the flag when it was drooping.  Whenever I'm working on a model's flags I get out those photos. 

I don't pretend to have an ideal solution for any of these problems; to my eye the flags I've made so far are, at best, no better than satisfactory.  I do think, though, that the problem is worth a good deal of effort.  Flags are usually among the last things that get a modeler's attention, and I suspect many modelers tend to rush the flag-making exercise in their desire to finish up and go onto another project.  But flags really deserve attention.  They'll certainly get attention from anybody looking at the finished model.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Norfolk, UK
Posted by RickF on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:28 AM

Having heard of the idea from a source I cannot recall, I have just tried printing some flags on T-shirt transfer paper using an inkjet printer. While not perfect, the paper is fairly translucent and not too stiff. I'm building working warships in 1:48 scale.

I haven't installed any of my flags on the model yet, but they don't look too bad.

Rick

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:40 AM

The website I saw (I wish I had bookmarked it), was of a modellor who made the most amazingly realistic flags.  JTilley, you mentioned you took pictures of real flags in the wind.  This modeller's flags looked like they were taken straight from a photograph.  The scale was absolutely perfect, even for such a large flag (stern flag on a ship of the line).  The ripples in the flag were incredible.

I'm going to try several different methods.  I have several different types of paper and aluminum foil in varying thickness.

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Australia
Posted by rokket on Friday, March 13, 2009 5:28 PM

I'm a bit biased, but we print fabric flags from 1:125 up to 1:25 (and beyond), using high technology. Every set comes with 2 flags, and they are accurately researched and produced.

http://amp.rokket.biz/flags.shtml

 

AMP - Accurate Model Parts Fabric Flags, AM Uboat Goodies & More http://amp.rokket.biz/
  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Friday, March 13, 2009 5:40 PM
Yeah, but what about us 1/700 guys? *sniff*
  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Australia
Posted by rokket on Friday, March 13, 2009 5:53 PM
I know, so many flags needed in 700 and 350..the fabric is much to big. We can make paper flags too, and have gone to 1:25 and just below, but they are very expensive because of the precise double-sided registration needed, and even on a super hi-res $35,000 printer, detail is tough...
AMP - Accurate Model Parts Fabric Flags, AM Uboat Goodies & More http://amp.rokket.biz/
  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:19 AM

Rokket's flags are excellent, see this example (1/35th):

Julian

 

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