VII B and the VII C.....much difference?

The VIIB and VIIC were extremely similar boats, and probably had almost identical interiors. The biggest differences are exterior, mostly in regards to the conning tower.
Is the cutaway kit accurate? No way. Laughably bad in every respect. Check out these photos from Uboat.net:
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U995A
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U995C
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U995D
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/index.html?gallery=U96Munich
My advice is to buy the new Revell kit and scratchbuild from there. And use the movie Das Boot for a more "dynamic" reference source. It's not a real U-boat, but a very realistic replica.

Thank you Daryl081!!

I have seen that site before ....and now its in my Favs.

What I want to do is build just what you could see through the open hatches of the new 1/72 scale VII C Revell kit.

I have noticed that all the 'surviving' U-BOOTS are newer models....am I right about that?....and.....Is there any GOOD ref material online for the VII C?

More interior shots of U-995:
http://www.ostseewracktauchen.de/images/u995/index.php
For blueprints of the VIIC and other boats (or boots):
http://www.9teuflottille.de/page/lexikon/bootsplaene_index.html
If that doesn't work, go to http://www.9teuflottille.de/index2.html, click on "Wissen", then "Bootsplane".
There is a lot of good material in Robert Stern's The Type VII U-boat. Just ask me if you need any scans.

Looks like a very interesting project Papa Echo.

The 1/125 revell interior is incorrect, I have one and plan to correct it (a long term project); Except for the hatch in the coning tower you can't see much (as far as I know); what you think about open the free flood holes of the upper deck? I think in 1/72 you can see the detail under it.

As for on-line resources the most valuable for me is uboat.net

Thanks alot guys!!

free flood holes of the upper deck.....

Wuts dem?....I'm kinda new to the sub world

Here is my Home page so you can get an idea of what I have done to other kits.....and yes I take my meds every day on time.....he he.

http://troysmodels.homestead.com

enjoy!

Remember that early submarines spent most of their time on the surface. They needed to have a hull that was shaped to cut through the water much like any other ship. The sub is a long metal tube with framework and skin attached to the outside of the tube to provide this shape. To keep air from being trapped between the skin and the tube they filled it full of holes to allow the air to escape and water to fill in.

If you've ever seen one of these boats from the side you can see sunlight coming in from the flood holes on the opposite side of the boat. Opening up all those flood holes is a great idea. A challenging project would be to build up all that framework and pressure hull underneath.

Dave

Thanks Weebles!

GEE....

That sounds like a lot of work.....but cool!

This is going to be a very COOL kit!

If anyone sees anything about a U.S. arrival....let us know ok?

Does anyone know what sections the two hatches lead to on the main deck? aft and foward of the tower?

The forward hatch on the type VIIC drops down into the Officer's Mess area. The aft hatch drops into the Mates Room. I have a nice drawing that shows cross sections of the Type VIIC. It also demonstrates how structure is attached to the pressure hull. If you like I can scan it and send it to you email.

Pretty much anything you would build up under the outter hull you would want to paint black. It's not going to show much detail and all you want and are gonig to see are shadows unless you wanted to open it up.

Thanks weebles! you have mail.

With some lighting you would be able to some stuff right?.....with open hatches of course.

Re. Deck Hatches:
On the Type VIIC you had, forward to aft:
A Forward Torpedo loading hatch.
A Square Hatch, through which battery cells were lowered into during construction. This was welded shut at completion.
The Main Hatch on the sail, which led into the conning tower and control room.
An after battery hatch, which was also welded shut.
The Galley hatch, reserved for taking on food and sundries.
A very large rectangular hatch, through which the diesal engines were installed. This was also welded shut.
The VIIB was very similar, with the addittion of a watertight locker for deck gun ammunition, and a ready-ammunition locker on the aft deck for the 20mm AA gun. The AA gun was moved up to the Wintergarten, but the ammo locker stayed. Updated and newer VIIC boats had no deck gun, an enlarged Wintergarten, heavier AA fit, a schornel, and four watertight canisters for liferafts on the forward deck. Most Type VIIs carried two spare torpedoes, one forward, one aft, in containers on the main deck.

Sorry weebles, but no Officer's mess hatch in either boat.

I stand corrected. Thanks. I assumed incorrectly that the round hatches fore and aft of the tower were crew hatches. The hatch by the galley is hidden under a deck plate. Troy, you can see these in the drawings I sent you.

Troy, if you're planning on opening some hatches you may want to look at that one along with the tower hatch. It might also be interesting to model it loading a torpedo through either the forward or aft torp hatch. There are quite a few access hatches you could play with as illustrated in the book I have produced by Squadron.

Good luck
Dave

Dave,

Thanks alot for the drawings! and thanks Daryl for the update!

So when I look at the round hatch in front of the deck gun to the side a bit...does that lead to the PO's and Officers mess and was that hatch welded shut?......and the round hatch centered just behind the tower Is that hatch to the 'mates room' and battery room' and was that welded closed?

.....what do they mean by PO's?

Thanks!

As a side note, most Type VIIs lost their upper and lower net cutters after about 1939 as well....they still look cool on the models though.

An add on to Daryl's post...
Late war Type VIIs with the extended wintergartens had a lot of different cofigurations for their armament, and the modified conning towers had their scopes, ventilation, antennas etc. in a different configuration from the earlier versions as well. Make sure you check your references.

From Robert C. Stern's Type VII U-boats:
Forward Deckcasing. The foredeck of a Type VII U-boat was an extension of the external bow, leading back to the tower. Basically a flat-decked, thin steel structure, its upper surface, except at the extreme bow, was made of hardwood planks, primarily because a metal surface would ice up much more quickly in freezing weather. Numerous segments of the deck planking were either hinged or entirely removeable to permit access to hatchways or storage areas below. The wooden planks were spaced approximately 1cm apart to allow rapid drainage of water during rough weather and easy escape of air during a dive. The lower edge of the deckcasing on each side was marked by a long line of large free-flooding holes to further facilitate the entry and exit of water. Where the deckcasing met the saddle tanks, a narrow gap was left for the same reason.
The space forward between the deckcasing and the pressure hull was used primarily for storage. The motors and gearing for hauling in the anchor was located at the bow. Aft of this, on all models except the A, was the forward torpedo storage tube, offset to the port of the centreline. Later in the war this was ommitted on some boats. Some late war boats were fitted with a set of four watertight canisters for inflatable life rafts on the starboard side of the torpedo storage tube, a concession to the altered circumstances in which the Type VII was now operating. Next aft came the hinged access door to the forward torpedo hatch, which projected nearly all the way up to the deck planks. The space between the torpedo hatch and the tower was used differently in early and later boats. Up until mid-war, this section housed a watertight container for ready ammunition for the 8.8cm deck gun and supports for the gun itself. Between them was the access to the forward battery hatch. Unlike the other hatches in the pressure hull, this one was intended to be opened only in dockyard, for the purpose of replacing battery cells. It was therefore bolted shut rather than being sealed by a hinged hatch door. The access space was normally used as an open storage area for docking gear such as lines and fenders. Later in the war, starting in 1943, the deck gun and its associated ready storage container were removed to conserve weight. Later still, the port side of this space was used as stowage for the snorkel when lowered.
The upper surface of the deckcasing had a number of standard features. Forward of the anchor gear, there was a pair of retratable bollards. These were manually extended only when needed to moor the boat. Most early boats were equipped with a rotating hydrophone known as the KDB ((Kristalldrehbasis Gerat- rotating crystal apparatus), just aft of the foremost bollards. Next aft was a capstan, also retractable, needed only if the electrical anchor hoist should fail. If the four life-raft containers were fitted, they came next, as did the removable deck sections covering the torpedo stowage tube. Another pair of retractable bollards was fitted, one of each side aft of these. The remaining deck area between this and the tower was taken up with the gun and its ready storage container or later with the through for the snorkel.
After Deckcasing. Like the forward deckcasing, the after deckcasing was a thin steel structure with hardwood decking. Once the Flak mounting on Type VIIAs was moved to the tower, the major feature of the after deckcasing was the external torpedo tube in the extreme stern of the boat. With the deletion of this feature in B model and all subsequent variants, the after decking became relatively featureless. Despite the removal of the Flak mounting, all Type VIIs, at least until the middle of the war, retained the watertight container, right aft of the tower, that was used to store the barrell of that gun. Aft of this came the hinged deck plating giving access to the cook's hatch, the hinged hatchway over the after torpedo hatch and the removeable deck plating over the after torpedo storage tube. The only remaining features were three pairs of retractable bollards, one on each side and one right aft.
The area between the upper casing pressure hull aft of the tower was largely taken up by the ventilation trunking, which ran forward from the engine room to the tower, and exhaust trunking and mufflers which ran aft to the exhaust ports on each side. The internal valves that sealed the exhaust trunks on each side where they passed through the pressure hull were the cause of some considerable anxiety at the beginning of the war. The seals on these boats proved inadequate in a number of boats and many commanders reported serious leakage if the boat were forced to dive deep. The problem went undiscovered before the war because U-boats were prohibated from diving deeper than 50 meters on training dives. Once war patrols began, boats were routinely forced to dive to three or more times this depth. (U-49 dived to 170 metres during an attack in November 1939. Later in the war, dives of almost double that depth were commonly reported.) At those depths, many boats were forced to activate their pumps in order to maintain buoyancy. It is not known to what extent this problem contributed to the high rate of losses in the war's opening months, but it noteworthy that loss rates dropped in 1940 after the exhaust valves were repaired.

Thank you Robert! good reading.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Papa-Echo-64 So when I look at the round hatch in front of the deck gun to the side a bit...does that lead to the PO's and Officers mess and was that hatch welded shut?......and the round hatch centered just behind the tower Is that hatch to the 'mates room' and battery room' and was that welded closed? .....what do they mean by PO's? Thanks!

I believe "PO" refers to Petty Officer.

AA fit variations:
U-73 to U-76 (Type VIIB):1 20mm C/30 in LC30/37 mounting
Type VIIC 1940-1943: 1 20mm C/30 in LC30/37 mounting; from mid-1942 additonal 4 8mm C/34 machine guns.
Type VIIC with "Winter Garden" (Bridge Conversion II, 1943): 2 20mm C/38 in LC30/37 mounting
U-84 (Type VIIB): Raised AA platform behind bridge, 1943. 2 20mm C/38 in LC30/37 mounting
U81 (Type VIIC) with enlarged bridge: 4 13.2mm Breda Machine guns (2x2, retractable into watertight housing), and 1 20mm C/38 in LC30/37 mounting
Flak U-boat U-441: 8 20mm (2x4) 38/43U with shields, and 1 37mm SKC/30U in LC/39 mounting
U-345: 8 20mm (4x2) 38MII (Bridge Conversion V)
Bridge Conversion VI: Twin 20mm 38MII forward of the bridge (U-673 and U-973)
Bridge Conversion VII: 4 37mm (2x2) M42U
1944/1945: 4 20mm (2x2) 38MII in LM43U mounting, and 1 37mm M42U in LM42U mounting. On some boats, 37mm mount was replaced by either 1 20mm quadruple 38/43U with a shield or 1 30mm twin M42 in LM42U mounting.
More reference on the weapons listed:
C30 and C38: http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNGER_20mm-65_c30.htm
SKC/30U: http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNGER_37mm-83_skc30.htm
M42: http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNGER_37mm-69_mk42.htm
M43: http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNGER_37mm-57_mk43.htm

So when I look at the round hatch in front of the deck gun to the side a bit...does that lead to the PO's and Officers mess and was that hatch welded shut?......and the round hatch centered just behind the tower Is that hatch to the 'mates room' and battery room' and was that welded closed?

.....what do they mean by PO's?

If available of course, rather than watching the movie of "Das Boot" may I recommend the TV-series.

The Movie is bassically a short-cut synopsis of the TV-series and the TV-series goes way more into details of submarine life and I think many Sub details can be seen longer than in the Movie version.

Das Boot ...TV series?....huh?

or maybe I have been under a rock.......

QUOTE: Originally posted by Papa-Echo-64 Das Boot ...TV series?....huh? or maybe I have been under a rock.......

Yes, it was a mini-series 6hrs long(methinks), which was than cut down to the Movie and later re-edited to the 200 minutes Directors cut.

Things like "Lice(sack-ratten) inspections" and similar were omitted in the movie if I rememer correctly. Been too long since I watched it.

Here is some additional info:
http://eleanor.lib.gla.ac.uk/search/c?SEARCH=GER-M0178-00

The round hatch in front of the deck gun is a watertight container for deck gun ammunition. It doesn't lead to the inner pressure hull, and wasn't welded shut.
The round hatch aft of the tower is a watertight container for the 20mm gun, which, on the Type VIIA was mounted on the after deck. The gun was moved up to the tower, but the container stayed on all Type VIIs.
The battery hatches were different affairs. During construction, these were small, rectangular spaces cut into the deck through which individual battery cells could be lowered for installation. After installation of the batteries, hatches were installed and welded shut, and could only be opened in a shipyard. The forward battery hatch was just forward of the deck gun mounting, but somewhat aft of the barrel tip. The aft battery hatch was aft of the tower, but came before the watertight container for the 20mm gun barrel.
POs: Petty Officers

Daryl, is there a particular reference you're using. You have an excellent grasp on the U-Boat.

As far as a TV series goes, I don't think it ever made the US market. Does anyone know different???
Dave

QUOTE: Daryl, is there a particular reference you're using. You have an excellent grasp on the U-Boat.

I've been into this subjects for years now, but it basically boils down to Robert C. Stern's Type VII U-boats, the Technology & Operations Forum at Uboat.net, those big shipyard's plans posted earlier (tediously translated into English), and Waaayyyyy too many viewings of Das Boot.
I hope Papa-Echo-64 realises the magnitude of this project, especially with us looking over his shoulder.

Here's some good U-Boat references:

Vom Original zum Modell: Uboottyp VIIC (German) - ISBN 3-7637-6002-4

Anatomy of the Ship -The Type VII U-Boat - ISBN 0-87021-886-7

The U-Boat - ISBN 0-304-36120-8

as well as Stern's book, already mentioned above in a prior post...

Additionally, there is a set of drawings that were available (not sure if they still are...) from Fritz Kohl- he had "planrolles" for the Type VII, XXI, IX, XXIII...you may want to check thru Amazon.de. In the back of the "vom Original" books, you can find reduced size drawings of these plans. Most are in the 10-15 sheets per roll, with special emphasis in some plans on things like Schnorkels, antennas, different conning tower mods.
Cheers,
Sam

QUOTE: Originally posted by Daryl081 I hope Papa-Echo-64 realises the magnitude of this project, especially with us looking over his shoulder. GULP! So besides the tower hatch......are there any other hatches on the main deck that would have lead down to the interior on the VII C model? Thanks for the info guys!........otherwise I don't mind just showing the detail one would see through that point. Straighten up and fly right..... Reply Anonymous Member since November 2005 Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 8, 2003 9:43 AM Except the two watertight containers, all of the hatches led to the interior. Only the tower hatch and the Galley hatches had ladders which led down to the main deck. Of course, a small enough man, greased with vaseline, could easily slide through the torpedo loading hatches . Okay, a quick interior tour of the VIIC: We start in the forward torpedo room. At the very front, we see the four bow torpedo tubes, which project about four meters into the pressure hull. There are six bunks on either side of this compartment, arranged 3X2. There are three mess tables bolted to the floor between the bunks, with hinged sides. Beneath the deck plates are four reload torpedoes. Fully loaded, there are two spares hanging from the overhead. To accomadate these, the upper bunks folded up. Naturally, the crew wanted to get rid of these torpedoes pretty quickly Aft of this, we come to the Chief Petty Officer's quarters. As you walk through the hatchway, you see the forward head to port, a provisions locker to starboard. There are four bunks here, two on either side on top of each other. Another mess table is bolted here. Pass through another hatch, we come to the Officer's Mess. There are four bunks, the top bunk on the port side is usually folded up. A small mess table is bolted to the floor on the port side. Passing through a curtain, we see the Captain's "cabin", and the radio and hydrophone shacks to starboard. Continuing through a round watertight hatch, we enter the control room. For reasons of space, I won't elaborate, but the control room contains: A rudder stand, the planesman's station, the search periscope, the bilge pump, the auxilliary pump, the chart table, the ballast controls, and the electric gyrocompass. Another round hatchway, and we enter the Petty Officer's Quarters. To starboard is the boat's only refrigerated compartment. There are four bunks to either side, and two hinged mess tables bolted to the floor. Next aft is the tiny Galley. Along with the small stove and a sink, there is a provision locker to Port, and the aft Head to Starboard. Now we enter the Diesal engine Room, with two seriously honking huge diesals on either side. Along with the diesals, there are two motor oil coolers. Next aft is the electric motor room, with the electricic motors to port and starboard. A bit further aft, we see two air compressors. An electric-powered compressor is to port, a diesal-powered to starboard. Finally, we come to the aft torpedo tube. There is a single spare torpedo housed beneath the floor plates in the E-motor room. Whew! That was longer than I'd thought. Keep in mind, that this all in a 144-foot long pressure hull, that averages ten feet wide, that houses 44 men! Reply Edit samreichart Member since December 2003 From: Virginia, USA Posted by samreichart on Monday, December 8, 2003 9:57 AM There's the torpedo loading hatch. But it's under the deck planking, so unless you are going to create a diorama showing the hoist that was used to move the torpedos below decks, you wouldn't show interior detail. Also check www.accurate-armour.com look for the Type VIIc submarine resin kit they sell in 1/35 scale. There's a photo of the boat in a diorama setting, showing a rear hatch opening - I don't remember if this is the stern tube reload hatch, or a galley hatch (it's not the ready ammunition cannister)...I can check though. cheers, Sam Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur :) Reply Anonymous Member since November 2005 Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 8, 2003 11:18 AM I forgot to mention the conning tower above the control room. This housed the torpedo data computer and attack periscope. Reply Edit 12 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login Register SEARCH FORUMS FREE NEWSLETTER SIGN UP By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy. FORUMS PRODUCT REVIEWS READER GALLERY HOW TO VIDEOS SHOP ABOUT US FREE MONTHLY NEWSLETTER SIGN UP By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy. More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy