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Hollow victory at the local model contest

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  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Hollow victory at the local model contest
Posted by mfsob on Thursday, April 2, 2009 9:13 PM

I entered my second model contest last week, the 2009 Kanawha Valley Scale Modelers show, and it was brought home to me rather forcefully - again - that those of us who build ships are one of the minorities in this hobby. There were a total of five (5) entries in the All Ships/All Scales category, down from 12 the year before (although the entire show was about half the size of last years, as well). Three plastic warships in 1/700, a paper warship in 1/300 and my humble 1/700 auxiliary, the seaplane tender IJN Kimikawa Maru. As for the car models ... over 100, I believe. Tanks and airplanes aplenty.

I did win first in the class, which surprised me because the 1/700 Soviet destroyer was exquisite, but I found myself wishing for more competitionfor the sheer sake of accomplishment if nothing else. But I have to admit, I kept the trophy! A look at the finished product:

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Thailand
Posted by Model Maniac on Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:13 PM
Nice work! Congratulations for the trophy! But your pic is way too small. As for the next contest, I'd suggest you build and submit both ships and tanks so that you'll have more competitors in the tank category.

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  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:39 PM

Mfsob, I think I know how you felt.  That sort of thing is one of the many reasons why I no longer believe in model contests.

The bottom line is that you've built an excellent model of an unusual but significant subject.  I suspect the aircraft and armor modelers, if they took the trouble to look at your work, learned something and got some inspiration from it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Friday, April 3, 2009 3:47 AM

Depends a lot on  how many contest have been going on as to how many people show up. I went to a show early in Feb. and there was well over 25 ships. The first reason I go to shows are to see other models talk to the other competitors who are fellow ship builders.Get input and ideas. The second reason I go is to take my model for others to look at it. If you just stay home  with your models the only people that will probably see your creations will be your wife and few relatives that probably don't really care. I know I like looking at models what ever the type and I get ideas and ways to make my modeling better. Modeling to the most part is a solitary hobby. Contest are a just a great way to better your self . Remember its not all about the trophy's, well ok its a little bit about the trophy'sBig Smile [:D] I hope I will see you and your ships someday.

Rod 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Friday, April 3, 2009 7:05 AM

Mfsob,

Interesting handel (I can maybe guess at what it stands for ;) )

One way to look at the low entries is that very few modelrs can handle the detail needed to build ship models!  I guess they just can't cut it! :). I kinda look at it that way and I feel better!

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, April 3, 2009 7:24 AM

I've gotten onto my anti-contest soapbox several times in this Forum, and I suspect some members are tired of what I have to say about the topic.  But I do think it's worth considering.

The following is quoted from a post I made in 2006.  Anybody who's already thoroughly sick of hearing what I have to say about it is welcome to stop reading here. 

"I've sounded off before on this topic elsewhere in the Forum; those I've already put to sleep in that manner are welcome to stop reading here.  I've become convinced over the past fifty years that competitions do at least as much harm to the hobby as they do good for it.  I've entered my share of them, and made a thorough idiot of myself more than once.  I've also served as a judge quite a few times, and I won't do it again. 

"My last major contact with the world of model contests involved the International Scale Ship Model Competition (I think that's what they called it) at the Mariners' Museum.  I got my job there shortly after the first contest (in 1980) and had the task of planning the one for 1985.  Not knowing what I was getting into, I started by sending out a form to all the people who'd entered the 1980 event, asking them what they thought should be changed next time.  Bad idea.  Everybody agreed there weren't enough categories; that he/she had been beaten out by models that, for one reason or another, were unfair competitors.  If I'd taken all those recommendations, some lucky entrant in the 1985 contest would have gotten a letter reading:  'Congratulations!  You've won second place in the the category for semi-scratchbuilt, full-hull, unpainted, rigged models of sailing ships longer than 100' built to scales larger than 1/16"=1' out of wood with hand tools by amateurs - outside a bottle.'  Great.


"I left the museum in 1983; in 1985 my former boss called me on the phone and asked if I'd serve as a judge.  I said yes, but a month before the event I got laid up in the hospital with a bladder stone.  (Fate works in mysterious, wondrous ways.)  I did, however, serve as a judge in the 1990 event.  It was a fascinating experience; the opportunity to examine so many superb models at close range was great.  But it was also frustrating.  The other two judges and I spent three days, 9-5, studying those models (there were over a hundred of them), and read the 'research notebooks' that accompanied them in the hotel at night.  Three days were all we had; we were taking time off from our jobs, and the museum was footing the hotel bill.  The winners we picked were some of the finest models I've ever seen.  And as soon as we got done, the trouble started. 

"Never in my life have I encountered such a collection of whiny, babyish, egotistical, thin-skinned so-called adults as in the aftermath of model competitions.  They deluged that museum with complaints that the judges were biased, the judges were incompetent, the results were rigged, etc., etc.  One guy kept writing letters for about six months, eventually announcing that was going to report the museum and the judges to the authorities.  (He gave up when he found out that there aren't any such authorities.) 

"Model contests seem to bring out the worst in people (including me), and I question how much good they actually do for anybody.  I no longer enter them, judge them, or have anything to do with them. 

"I get a great deal of pleasure from looking at the work of other modelers; rarely if ever do I see a model that doesn't teach me something.  And I enjoy talking to other modelers.  But I don't see why any sort of comparative evaluation has to be part of the experience.  I hear other people describe themselves as 'naturally competitive'; I guess I'm not.  I figure that a medal or ribbon in a contest merely means that those particular judges thought that particular model was better than the others that showed up on that particular day.  If my model wins such an award, I know it did so because Donald McNarry, Harold Hahn, and various other folks didn't show up.  So how much does it mean?  I don't feel like I have anything to prove to anybody, and I don't need somebody to tell me my model isn't as good as some other model.  I'm perfectly capable of figuring that out for myself.

"I am, however, a big believer in model exhibitions.  The model club of which I'm currently a member (the Carolina Maritime Modeler's Society - meetings at the NC Maritime Museum in Beaufort, 2:00 on the fourth Saturday of every month, September through May, new members and visitors always welcome) has been going strong for more than ten years now [make that almost fifteen, as of 20009], without ever holding a contest.  I have, in fact, never heard a negative or discourteous word from anybody in the club.  Every May, in conjunction with the Museum's annual Wooden Boat Show, we hold an exhibition in which all the members bring in their models and show them off to the public.  The subjects range from Chesapeake Bay skipjacks to freighters to RC tugboats to aircraft carriers.  Before the exhibition starts, we set up a photographic backdrop and lights, and I take pictures of the models; I make the pictures into prints and CDs, and hand them out the following month to anybody who's interested.  The guys in the small craft shop prepare miniature fishing boat kits out of scrap wood, and we set up a booth where kids are invited to buy the little models and build them under our supervision.  (Price:  $3.00.  Average construction time:  15 minutes.  Typical reaction to the experience:  sheer ecstasy.  [Most enthusiastic participants in the past few years:  Girl Scout troops.])  Everybody has a great time, everybody learns something, and nobody fights about anything.  [Near exception:  a couple of years ago some kid lifted the radar screen off a member's scratchbuilt Aegis cruiser and started running around the room with it.  I came close to commiting homicide.]  That's my notion of what model building - or any other hobby - is supposed to be about."

I'm not on a crusade to exterminate model contests.  The character and effects of any contest depend heavily on the people organizing and taking part in it.  Many contests undoubtedly are beneficial to individual modelers and to the hobby as a whole.  About forty years of contest watching have convinced me, though, that as a whole they do at least as much damage to the hobby as they do good.

To each his/her own; anybody is certainly free to ignore any or all of the above.  But please think about it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2008
Posted by Spotty on Friday, April 3, 2009 7:31 AM
 Big Jake wrote:

One way to look at the low entries is that very few modelrs can handle the detail needed to build ship models!  I guess they just can't cut it! :). I kinda look at it that way and I feel better!

Jake

Oooo    I like that!

I'm gonna use that one. Evil [}:)]

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Palm Bay, FL
Posted by Rick Martin on Friday, April 3, 2009 9:07 AM
First to mfsob; congrats on your win. Your model looks great and should rightly be considered a real winner. Second comment; as usual jtilley's comments are timely and worth considering. I agree that contests all to often bring out the worst in people. I too have met some of the most whiney, arrogant, self absorbed people after a contest and as a judge have also been on the receiving end of the complaints. I remember an incident several years ago where a contest entrant overheard some judges (early in the judging process) comment that his model might be a winner but lets see how the others fare before we make an announcement. His model didn't quite "cut it" in the end but based on his evesdropping on the judges he demanded a trophy for his category. I believe he too threatened any number of dire consequences if no throphy was forthcoming. I believe the scene he created was dampened somewhat by another contestant who was an off-duty highway patrol officer. Be that as it may I have also met some of the nicest, most graciious people at these shows and contests. They are a way to see others work in whatever area interests you and if you enter and later get a chance to talk to the judges in a reasonable, respectful way you can get some great insight into how your model fared against others. Its a great way to improve. As for the small number of entrants in the ship categories, that may always be a problem. IPMS contests all seem to be primarily aircraft with P-51's, FW-190's etc in abundance. My own modeling wanders from ships to A/C to the "darkside" of armor modeling and I really like it all. Anyway, congratulations on your win and keep up the good work there. RickM
"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons" General Douglas Macarthur
  • Member since
    May 2006
Posted by thunder1 on Friday, April 3, 2009 9:30 AM

To Dr. Tilley

  How can anyone criticize your expert judging credentials? I was an entrant at a show you judged, at least you have a educated grasp of what goes into research and scratchbuilding, the local "day shows" are a crap shoot.  

You make a good case for model shows and competitions, the "one day only" model shows are very subjective in judging results. At the "single theme" shows(ships) it's possible to have only two awards, entrants favorite and spectators favorite, one entry ticket or one model entry equals one vote. In this situation, no judging can be viewed as short sighted or judges bias, majority rules. Of course if you bring all your friends/relatives to the show that constitutes a voting "block".Big Smile [:D] I've attended shows with a "first place" model at one event and won nothing at another with the same model! And I've taken first place, winning against ship models that I considered superior to mine. This was as embarrassing to me as losing to an inferior ship model at another competition. But there are few "all ship" exhibitions in most areas of the country, so to display one's work you need to join a club(where most club builders have no use for ships) or compete in a local venue. There is no easy answer to this situation, but ship modelers need a place to show off their work, even if you get your "fantail" kicked at a local show. And if you think building ship models of obscure naval prototypes is under appreciated, try entering a contest with a US Coast Guard cutter, now THAT'S frustrating  O.K. Professor now I'll get off my soap box!

Mike Maynard USCG(RET)

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Friday, April 3, 2009 9:55 AM

Competition can bring out the worst in people as well as the best. Ever see that movie 'Best in Show' about the dog show?

I don't think I ever attended a model contest, let alone entered one, but Prof is right about the exhibitions. They are fun. The last one I went to was at the Museum of Flight in Seattle. Aircraft outnumbered all other categories by at least ten to one. Ships by maybe 50-1.

One thing you can say about that is that you can get sensory overload looking at 600 beautiful airplane models, so 6 nice ships really stand out.

On the other hand, even on this forum we don't get to see many finished ships, while the airplane people just turn 'em out daily.

Fred

Monty, when are we going to see your dockyard? 

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Friday, April 3, 2009 10:09 AM

Thank you all for the kind words, they're much appreciated. I sure don't go to these things hoping to win, but more to see how my efforts stack up against other's best work. Which can be quite the humbling experience (always a good thing).

As for the dockyard, onyxman ... it is getting there. Nothing like working four 10-hour days to suck the energy out of you!

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Boston
Posted by Wilbur Wright on Friday, April 3, 2009 11:01 AM

In 30 years of model building I have never entered a contest. My work in general can stand up to a very high standard, as told to me by many, and I have never had the urge to prove it.

 

I fully agree with Professor Tilly on "Exhibitions". Its always great to talk to modelers and see great work. Pick up tips from those who are more skilled or use a certain technique, which you have never tried. If we are lucky enough to do this into very old age then we will still be learning something everytime out.

And Professor, I love the category description, which just about says it all as far as contests.

One thing about the lack of ship entries, lack of interst etc. and I've said this before...that when a kid goes into my model room he/she goes right for the ships, not the tanks. Every time!  I think a great ship model is more eye catching than most anything I can think of. 

My two cents.

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Friday, April 3, 2009 12:13 PM
I've attended one model contest, an IPMS event in Northern Illinois. For "grins" I submitted two models, and walked away with two second place trophies.......both catagories had limited entries. What I did take away from the show, of any real value, was a new concept of "fit and finish", and the concept that "it can be done!". While I probably will never participate in "competition", the model contest/shows, can be a great source of inspiration, and a place to get the answer to the age old question...."How did you do that!"

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    January 2008
  • From: Chicago
Posted by DerOberst on Friday, April 3, 2009 12:57 PM

 Model Maniac wrote:
As for the next contest, I'd suggest you build and submit both ships and tanks so that you'll have more competitors in the tank category.

Might I suggest that you kill two birds with one stone and build of model of a ship carrying tanks!

One model, two contests.

Done.

 

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Connecticut, USA
Posted by Aurora-7 on Friday, April 3, 2009 2:16 PM

 mfsob wrote:
....it was brought home to me rather forcefully - again - that those of us who build ships are one of the minorities in this hobby.

 

Try being a sci fi modeler. The geeks of the geeks.

But as said before, it depends on region for both subject diversity and judges attitudes. I've gone to regional shows for more that 15 years now (have yet to enter) just because I look talking to lots of modelers in one place and ask them about the work. After that trophies should just be gravy.

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: NE Oklahoma
Posted by Allen109 on Friday, April 3, 2009 7:12 PM

   Looks great,can I see a bigger picture?

   I have to agree with all the aspects and opinions of contests-the good, the bad, and the ugly.  I've been a member of the local club (Tulsa Modelers Forum-IPMS Region 6) since I was 12.  I am currently 28. Our contests are open to all modelers. 

  My favorite part is seeing the great modelers and models who come from all over to our contest, see their work and ask how they did it, and to hear their opinions of my work(somebody who is already outside the box).  To each his own.

   I have recently gone over to sci-fi and will begin the journey of ship modeling as soon as I get more tools and buy large amounts of photo-etch and possibly 2 laser-cut wooden decks(OH GODS HELP ME!-2 1/350 Trumpeter WWII Pacific Fleet carriers- CV19 and CV8,1/350 DML Ticonderoga(Aegis),1/542 Revell CV60 Saratoga,and 1/700 CA68 Baltimore).

   There is a reason I haven't trully dived into ships yet-the level of detail. Putting together a cockpit for a Bf-109 or other has gotten a lot easier.  There are other small areas that require detail work, but they are small and isolated-unless you want to gut the whole thing and end up using less than 10% of the original kit.

   Ships?!? You have to detail the whole thing!!!! And even in 1/700,the amount of precision required is sick! You can hide a lot of stuff on aircraft kits. 

 

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:11 AM

You know, Allen109, that is a profound thought - ship models are different because everything is out there, from the smallest roller chock to the largest superstructure. I just never really thought of it that way ... having been around ships off and on my whole life, that was just the way things were, and I accepted that that was the way the models had to be, too. No wonder I build airplanes when I feel the need to "take a break." Big Smile [:D]

And sorry about the size of the picture, server limitations with Earthlink. I have a whole page about the build here: http://home.earthlink.net/~mymodels1/kimikawa_maru.htm with some additional photos.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:41 AM

Hmmm....I'm not sure I can agree completely. 

Ship models rarely include what the aircraft and armor folks call interior detail.  (Exceptions:  the genuine plank-on-frame sailing ship models.)  There is a famous, 1/48-scale model of a WWII destroyer, built by the great Gibbs and Cox model shop, that's cut away down the centerline and features engines, boilers, living spaces, etc., etc.  If I remember correctly, it took a crew of modelers several thousand hours to build.  The only ship kits I can think of that have interior detail are a handful of submarines (e.g., the old Revell and Renwal ones that sent Admiral Rickover into such a tizzy).  Personally, in 50+ years of ship modeling I have yet to build a model of a steam turbine.  Or the internal workings of a battleship's gun turret.

The aircraft and armor folks also would point out that lots of ship modelers deliberately omit not only the details but the basic shape of a big part of the subject:  the hull below the waterline.  (The philosophical arguments on both sides of the full-hull vs. waterline debate can get pretty cerebral.  My personal opinion:  to each his/her own.)

I do wish modelers would realize how much fun and knowledge is to be had from looking at each others' work, regardless of the subject.  I've learned quite a bit about modeling from studying good airplane and tank models - and, for that matter, model railroads.  And I've seen lots of airplane and armor enthusiasts pass by displays of ship models without even thinking about looking at them.  For the record - I also know plenty of ship modelers who take no interest whatever in any other genre of modeling.  And plenty of plastic modelers who ignore wood models, and lots of wood modelers who turn up their noses at plastic models.  All these people would be better off, and get more fun out their hobbies, if they'd open their eyes.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    October 2003
  • From: Superior, WI
Posted by fuhrman on Saturday, April 4, 2009 9:15 AM
Judged once myself at a Shenango Valley IPMS chapter context many years ago.  As there were only two guys in our club who did ships we were it along with a third wheel.  Typical small number of entrants but some rather nice quality work.  Our dilemma was caused by two modelers-one who entered 3 very well done modern USN sujects (destroyers, if memory serves) and a second whose work was just a schooch below the former's level.  That second one fellow's entry was the atrocious old Revell 1/720 Massachusetts.  The guy had really improved a beast of a kit and had obviously done more work doing that than the better quality build.  We two ship guys, knowing how that Revell kit would have looked out of the box as compared to the other kits, would have loved to give the Massachusetts a first based on how he had improved that sow's ear but just couldn't as the 3 destroyers were all just a bit better.  This was many years ago so I don't recall that there was some other award that could be given but I think we let the guy know how much we appreciated his effort.  Luckily-no squawks-but it did give me some insight into some of the things you guys who regularly judge have to deal with...
Bob Fuhrman
  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by John @ WEM on Saturday, April 4, 2009 11:14 AM

Hiya Mate,

Well, in the future you'll at least have another shipmodeller there--whether or not I can find time to build anything! We're moving to Summersville (first furniture shipment is already on the way), so can't be all that far from wherever the Kanawha contest is held. Drop me an e-mail some time, and let's stay in touch.

Cheers,

John Snyder, The Token Yank, White Ensign Models, johnsnyder@onetel.com

  • Member since
    March 2009
  • From: brisbane australia
Posted by surfsup on Sunday, April 5, 2009 4:35 AM
Just remember one thing. You had the "GUTS" to enter into the competition arena to compete. I have noticed quite a few people make comments about detail on entries,but have they ever entered a category in a competition. The answer usually is no. Why? I'd say that they may be too scared. We all enjoy our little sphere of modelling. You are promoting the Hobby to not only other Modellers, but generally also to the General Public. So dont worry about how many entries are in your category. Do it with Pride. Even if you get one person to enjoy your work. That means a lot to us and our Hobby. A child might see you work and take up the Hobby because of it. And that can only grow our numbers in this wonderful hobby. I have been Modelling for the best part of 35 years and only joined a club or group in the last 10 years. Enjoy the company of your friends and building ships to your hearts content. Keep on going my friend.Make a Toast [#toast]  

If i was your wife, i'd poison your tea! If Iwas your husband, I would drink it! WINSTON CHURCHILL

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Sunday, April 5, 2009 10:59 AM

Try being a sci fi modeler. The geeks of the geeks.
Go Geeks!!!, my current build is USS Kodiak NCC 6000 (in the Sci-Fi forum).

I do wish modelers would realize how much fun and knowledge is to be had from looking at each others' work, regardless of the subject.  I've learned quite a bit about modeling from studying good airplane and tank models - and, for that matter, model railroads.
There's probably as much add on detailing done in model railroading, as in any other branch of model building.

My favorite part is seeing the great modelers and models who come from all over to our contest, see their work and ask how they did it, and to hear their opinions of my work(somebody who is already outside the box).
Again, Look, Listen, Learn! Cars, ships, aircraft, armor, Sci-Fi, Figures, Trains, and any other kind of model work, there's tons of learning to be had, by simply attending,asking,observing, and listening (even when it's your work that's being "critiqued"). The only true "hollow victory", is walking away with none of the learning.

If you want to "take a little trip" pick the username of your favorite member of this forum, and "google"(search) the username. They may only post here, and then again, they may post in a variety of forums, on a variety of subjects. 

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Monday, April 6, 2009 10:05 AM
MFSOB   , Hello shipmodeler!!!!!!! That,s as fine a shipmodel as I,ve seen in a while . Don,t let partialism and or favoritism ruin your devotion to what you do . I have said for more years than I wish , that as modelers we seem to forget how we started . ALL modelers had to start on the first model regardless of what it was . Then , don,t ask me why ,some get the (what I call IT) ATTITUDE !!!! There are some who feel that if it,s out of our genre it,s not worth looking at or acknowledging. THAT IS DEAD WRONG!!!! None of us ever got into modeling for notoriety but for the pleasure of it . The idea of creating something from a jumble of boxed parts or from the available parts and pieces in the workshop is and always has been a challenge . We readily fulfull this need to create . This should be the main drive . I get real put out by the model builder who won,t acknowledge or accept the skills of a fellow modeler . The idea of NOT meriting skill is ,at best an insult or a lack of interest in another,s ability . That is why I won,t judge anymore . I refuse to play games with another modelers feelings or skills . WE AS MODELERS DON,T HAVE THAT RIGHT !!! We ,as miniaturists should always put that kind of attitude behind us ,Again ,my friend that is a fine looking diorama .    tankerbuilder
  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:35 PM
 When I think back on it now , it seems that the ALAMO SQUADRON /I.P.M.S. show this year only had about six or seven ships , but hundreds of armor,plane and car models . The @#$% breaker for me was that because of the small amount of ships entered (there was only two in the same scale) the judging was for best in class only . HOW DO YOU COMPETE in a ship class whan the most noticeable model is a 48 inch SCHNELL BOAT in R.C. With scale correct props etc . My ship couldn,t be noticed . I go because I like to look for older models (Not necessarily collectables ) And the chance to meet many new to the hobby . This time I hit the jackpot as far as meeting model related folks . Why is it though , that when you exchange phone numbers ,no one ever calls ???  don,t give up though O.K.?? ----tankerbuilder
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