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Imai Roman Warship questions (again)

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  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Friday, July 31, 2009 7:07 PM

Another big difference to watch out for between Imperial Roman legionaries and Marian/Caesarian Roman legionaries and marines is that lorica segmentata (the banded armour) was not, apparently, introduced until sometime during the latter part of Augustus' reign at the very earliest.

Also, and depending on where the fleet was based and on which legions, if any, were associated with it, any archers would probably have looked more like unarmoured Cretan or Numidian archers than the later eastern auxiliary archers.

Overall, Roman forces of those days entailed legionaries in Roman equipment supplemented with auxiliaries in their native equipment, be they Gauls, Spaniards, Cretans, Ligurians, Numidians, or others. Prior to the Empire, auxiliaries were not yet equipped by the Romans in more or less standardized kit.

You may want to start by looking for some references on the Roman army. The Osprey series include some titles, and there are others (now somewhat dated) by Connolly and others.

Finally, 1/72nd plastics are not too hard to convert, and a few Romans that are thrusting with swords could easily be converted to hold the ship's rail instead.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 31, 2009 8:25 AM

A monthly flier from Squadron Mail Order came in the mail yesterday.  Squadron is currently selling the Academy/Imai "Roman Warship" kit for about $15.00.  Not a bad price for an extra set of oars.  But the expense of getting it shipped to England might be prohibitive. 

My suggestion in an earlier post about leaving the oars off one side may, I fear, have sounded a little flippant, but it wasn't intended to.  That sort of concession to the realities of displaying ship models is perfectly legitimate.  The "half model," showing half of the hull mounted on a decorative plaque, is one of the oldest traditions in ship modeling.  (In the late eighteenth century and later, half models were used for design purposes.  But thousands of them have been built for purely decorative purposes as well.)

I just did a Forum search on the Academy/Imai "Roman Warship" kit.  Quite a few people who know more about the subject than I do have offered comments - generally quite favorable - about it.  There does seem to be a consensus, though, that it's too small to be on 1/72 scale.  I thought somewhere between 1/100 and 1/150 was about right; others have suggested 1/80 or 1/90. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Friday, July 31, 2009 7:25 AM
Thanks for the information and advice! There certainly seems to be a wide range of 1/72 plastic Romans available, and as I suspected there's a huge variation in quality and historical accuracy. I'm building my model to represent a ship from the late Republican/Civil War period, 50 BC+, which the kit is supposed to represent according to Imai and Academy. The Italeri/Zvezda ones look the best Republican figures overall, but all of the troops are in combat poses, which wouldn't really look right on a non-diorama model. I could also do with a few archers to go on the tower! I may end up buying some early Imperial figures (probably easier to find in any case) and removing their distinctive rectangular shields (their shields are stowed on the rails, so they wouldn't be holding them anyway)

Regarding the shields - I don't quite know how I missed this, but although many contemporary images of Roman galleys don't show them, the famous Praeneste relief carving (the one with the crocodile "figurehead") clearly shows a row of round shields on the upper deck rails, much like the Imai kit. (It also has a tower very similar in style to Imai's, though located at the bow end rather than the stern)

As for the tower, I've decided to replace this with a lighter scratchbuilt "wood" structure, basically a square platform with castellated bulwarks supported by an open framework of wooden beams. Although I'm sure there really were ships with "stone-effect" towers like the Imai kit, it just looks a bit too incongruous to me (and I don't want to have to keep explaining to viewers why a wooden ship apparently has a heavy stone tower on it Big Smile [:D] ) especially for what's supposed to be a fairly small ship.

I still haven't decided what to do with the oars (painting these at the moment - rather a tedious job, even if you paint the base coat while they're still on the sprue). I did think of putting the oars alternately in the lower and upper holes of the outrigger (the Latin word for this is apparently "apostis", BTW), basically representing a bireme with half as many oars per bank as the original kit design; with both banks filled, they look rather close together for 1/72 scale.

Anyway, my model is now making good progress - I'll post some work-in-progress photos soon (once the mast and deck rails are in place).
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:59 PM

Regarding the oar arrangement - I don't remember whether it was Jorit or me that brought this problem up originally, but I think Epinniger has phrased it about right.  The hull clearly is designed to accommodate two banks of oars - i.e., to represent a bireme.  But Imai used the same basic hull components for its Greek and Roman warship kits, and (somewhat irrationally) set up the oars differently in the two kits.  In the "Greek" kit, the oars come out through the holes in the outriggers; in the "Roman" kit they come out holes beneath the outriggers, and the holes in the outriggers are empty.

The best way to fix this, obviously, would be to add another bank of oars.  That, however, is a pretty expensive option - unless one happens to find another Imai/Academy kit for a bargain price, or has the tools to mold resin copies.

I can think of a few options.  The easiest:  explain to observers that, for one reason or another, the oarsmen on one level are taking a break.  (I'm sure there were plenty of scenarios in which only one bank of oars would be used at a time.)  The most artistic:  display the model on a mantle or a narrow shelf - one that's too narrow for the oars to be in action on both sides.  Use those provided for one side to fill the ports on the other side.

If you do find it necessary to show the oars rigged outboard on both sides, and can't find a practical means of adding the necessary number to make a full complement, my suggestion would be to shove the oars you have through the holes in the outriggers and plug up the ones in the lower row.  To my not-especially-educated eye those outriggers (I can't remember the Greek or Roman term for them off the top of my head either) quite obviously are supposed to have oars sticking out of them, and look weird in the oars' absence.  (The notion of the ports being there for purposes of illumination does make some sense, but I'm afraid few people who've studied the subject would buy it.  But it is, of course, your model.)

I don't really have anything to offer on the other points Epinniger has raised.  I can offer one suggestion regarding a source:  The Age of the Galley, the relevant volume in the Conway's History of the Ship series.  That series is, nowadays, the first place I usually look for basic information about virtually any kind of ship (in the western tradition, at least).  That particular volume is especially valuable, in that it synthesizes the research that's been done in the field in recent years (albeit it's been around for a decade or so now). 

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:32 PM

 EPinniger wrote:

- The shields on the deck rails. These seem quite plausible, as shields can be found on Northern European ships from the Viking era all the way up to the 16th century (though by then they were more ceremonial than functional). But no contemporary images of Roman galleys appear to show any shields. Granted, these representations are stylised and not proportionally accurate, and may have been made by someone with little actual knowledge of ships, but they generally show all the most prominent + important features of the vessel, and brightly-painted shields on the upper works would surely be among these. On the other hand, the soldiers carried on deck would have to stow their shields somewhere, and the rails are an obvious place! (Another thought: Are the shields on the Imai kit more or less accurate for those which would be used by Roman marines/shipboard troops of this date?)

Actually, there are stone sculptures of parts of Roman galleys, and they do depict shields. IIRC, one such carving shows overlapping, horizontally-laid oval scuta.

For your model, the shields would depend on the period that you are representing. For much of the Republic, oval (and curved) scuta would probably be best. For the early Empire, flat oval shields may be another option. Of course, the figures that you use (see below) could provide you with some shields.

 

 EPinniger wrote:

And one final question: what would be good source of suitable figures to crew the finished model with? There are plenty of 1/72 Romans available from wargaming figure manufacturers such as HAT. However, presumably these vary a lot in moulding quality and historical accuracy, and I'd suspect that some are also produced in the soft vinyl-type plastic which is rather hard to paint and glue. Any recommendations?

Here is a place to look for more information:

Republic:

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/PeriodList.aspx?period=3 

Imperial:

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/PeriodList.aspx?period=4 

Softer plastic figures can be painted, but they require washing, and preparation with an undercoat of gesso, diluted white glue, Woodland Scenics cement, or fleixble auto primer. Acrylic paints tend to be more flexible than enamels, and clear Plasti-Kote (a rubberized coating) can be used before varnishing.

So-called "20mm scale" metal figures could also be used. "20mm" is not a scale, even though some gamers delude themselves that a measure of height from feet to eyes is such. Regardless, gamers' "20mm" is fairly close to modellers' 1/72nd.

  • Member since
    January 2006
Imai Roman Warship questions (again)
Posted by EPinniger on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:58 AM
Having recently started work on the Academy (ex-Imai) "Roman Warship", I'm afraid I'll have to add my name to the long list of modellers with questions about building and painting this kit. Sorry for creating another "ancient warships" thread, BTW; I was originally going to post in one of the existing threads (here's the most recent, with Millard's impressive build of the Academy kit) but my post ended up so long that I thought it would be better to post in a new thread.

Until recently I didn't really have much enthusiasm for building a model of an ancient ship, as I had the impression that all the plastic kits out there (notably the ex-Imai Academy one, the most readily available and inexpensive) were of very limited historical accuracy and owed more to Hollywood than reality. However, acquiring an old Imai catalogue and scanning in the pages to post online got me to looking up more information on some of these kits, including their 2 ancient galleys. I was surprised to read on this forum that the "Roman Warship" kit is actually a reasonably accurate and nicely detailed representation of a small Roman galley warship. Shortly afterwards I picked up a part-built Academy kit "for a song" on eBay!

(To clarify things: The Academy "Roman Warship" kit (a reissue or exact copy of the old Imai one) is roughly 1/72 scale (not 1/250 as stated on the box!) and represents (according to what I have read) a small, single-banked, Roman warship of a type known as a liburna, intended for patrol and scouting duties, roughly the equivalent of a frigate in the "Age of Sail")

I've made fairly good progress with assembling and painting the hull and decks of my model (I'll post some photos if anyone is interested) but am getting to the stage where I need to start work on the deck fittings, oars, masts + rigging, and I have quite a few questions about these. I'm certainly not aiming for exact accuracy with my model (difficult at the best of times, but basically impossible with a model of an ancient ship) but I would like my model (if possible) to resemble a reasonably convincing model of an ancient Roman warship rather than a "Hollywood prop"!


Other than Bjorn Landstrom's "Sailing Ships" (a smaller, cut-down version of "The Ship") I don't have any reference books which cover ancient ships in any detail. However, luckly, a local museum where I work as a volunteer has a number of books on ancient and later rowed warships (they have a display related to the "Olympias" trireme reconstruction, including a 1/40 wood model) and earlier today I had a good look through them for more information. However, I still have several questions (a lot of questions, actually; sorry for the LONG post!) relating to various aspects of the ship:


- The tower/turret structure on the deck. This is represented as a stone "castle" structure which initially appears completely wrong (a solid stone structure on the deck of a shallow-draught galley would be seriously top-heavy) but several posters (in this thread) have mentioned that these structures on Roman ships, though made of wood, actually were constructed and painted to look like stone blocks, to intimidate the enemy. Is this true? Some contemporary images (carvings etc.) of Roman ships show towers very similar in style to that on Imai's kit, but was this accurate or simply an artistic representation, much like the heraldic representation of elephant howdahs as "castles"? The books I have read are frustratingly vague on the details of the construction and appearance of towers (maybe because not much is actually known about them?) but several mention that the towers were generally designed to be easily dismantled and removed when necessary, which suggests a fairly light and simple construction.
I'm definitely thinking of replacing the kit tower with a simpler "wood" structure (of approximately the same height + width) scratchbuilt from styrene. But I'd be interested to hear any thoughts as to whether this would be more plausible/convincing than the "stone-effect" tower supplied in the kit!

- The oar layout: the kit "out of the box" represents a single-banked galley or monoreme, but I have heard (I think Jorit Wintjes posted this) that this is actually an error in the kit as the "outriggers" are designed for two banks of oars (the holes in the sides are for the missing top bank). I don't really want to scratchbuild 26 more oars (or rebuild the rowing benches - though they aren't really very visible once the upper deck is on), so would it be reasonable to leave the oar arrangement unchanged? The holes in the outrigger sides look reasonably convincing as lighting/ventilation ports. (One other question: what are the Latin and/or Greek terms for the outrigger structure? I read it recently, but have forgotten)

- The figurehead (wolf?). At first I thought this seemed a bit out of place - it gives the impression of being added as an afterthought - and was going to remove it, but from the books I read today it appears that many (though by no means all) ancient galleys did have some sort of projection at this point. On many ships, especially earlier Greek ones, it is a simple "spike" but some ships have a decorative carving, including animal figureheads - there is a Roman coin from about 50 BC (the same date as Imai's Roman Warship is supposed to be) showing the prow of a galley extremely similar to that of the Imai kit, including the wolf figurehead. However, this projection (whether a spike or figurehead) appears to have been located a bit higher up, and in line with the deck, rather than angled upwards from the prow as it is on the kit. Moving it would be difficult due to the way it's moulded onto the hull. I'm inclined to just leave it in place, but again I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on this.

- The shields on the deck rails. These seem quite plausible, as shields can be found on Northern European ships from the Viking era all the way up to the 16th century (though by then they were more ceremonial than functional). But no contemporary images of Roman galleys appear to show any shields. Granted, these representations are stylised and not proportionally accurate, and may have been made by someone with little actual knowledge of ships, but they generally show all the most prominent + important features of the vessel, and brightly-painted shields on the upper works would surely be among these. On the other hand, the soldiers carried on deck would have to stow their shields somewhere, and the rails are an obvious place! (Another thought: Are the shields on the Imai kit more or less accurate for those which would be used by Roman marines/shipboard troops of this date?)

- The painting of the sails (and the small canopy on deck): Are the red + white stripes suggested by Academy (and Imai) plausible, or would unpainted canvas have been more likely for a relatively small and functional warship of the type represented by the kit?

- Along the same lines - would gilding on the decorative hull carvings (as suggested in the kit instructions) be plausible for a small ship like this?

And one final question: what would be good source of suitable figures to crew the finished model with? There are plenty of 1/72 Romans available from wargaming figure manufacturers such as HAT. However, presumably these vary a lot in moulding quality and historical accuracy, and I'd suspect that some are also produced in the soft vinyl-type plastic which is rather hard to paint and glue. Any recommendations?
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