what was the std or min spacing between ships in wwii

yes  i was thinking  in travel mode  stikpusher

 ok so  in 700th scale would about 9 in be realistic

         -----------------------3 ft ---------------------------------------

              s                       s                             s                        s

                         s                                                        s 

            -----------------------3ft---------------------------------------

 s= ship   on a 3x2 space would the above illus. look about right

I am only going off what I can picture from newsreels and such, but a rough spacing of 440 yds (1/4 mile) between ships sounds fair. In 1/700 scale that would be roughly almost 2' between ships. I would presume they would be deployed in a manner to provide the maximum mutual support without masking one anothers fire. IIRC correctly destroyers outboard on the screen, then cruisers, inboard would be a battleship and/or carriers.

                                                              s

                             s                                                                       s

                 s                                                X                                                  s

take a look at this photo for an idea of composition and spacing while steaming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Task_Force_38_off_the_coast_of_Japan_1945.jpg

Much of it depended on what the formation was doing... there was a difference between steaming and patroling, etc. I posted this document, for example of a 1943 memo laying out USN Anti-submarine formations.

Before you ask, I have nothing on Japanese formations, but you might find something in the book "The Pearl Harbor Papers" 

Here are two shots from the Enterprise just before and on the day of the Battle of Midway. note how the plane guard destroyer is close astern to rescue and aircrew who go in the water (as in the 1st picture) in the second there is an escorting cruiser nearby as well...

bondoman

that is a bit over 1/2 a mile 

 of course  bb row was /is basically  a parking lot  for ships

i talked to a neighbor a few yrs ago whose father died on the arizona  , her husband  got a bunch of materials and models and a 4x8 sheet of plywood  he was building pearl  based on those arials and surface photos etc  he got it more than 1/2 done when fire destroyed their house 

i had dreams of doing that too  but  i also had dthoughts of a 4x8 battle of the bulge dio in 1/72     i got about 3/4 of the materials and the couple doz tanks etc needed  but.......

that is another dream and an other forum

Cleaning out my garage this morning, I found a copy of "Naval Shiphandling" 1st edition, 1955. Figure 45 shows the "keep out" box around a large ship for a destroyer "maneuvering through a formation".

Per Figure 45, the box boundaries around the larger vessel are 2000 yds. ahead, 1000 yds. on each side and 500 yds. aft. 

Other details in Figures 46 and 47 show for large turns: keep another ship's stern between the center of that ship and your own bow -and- turns should always be made bow away from a group of ships or a larger vessel.

Figure 48 shows that for modifying course for station keepeng, course changes should be less than 5 degrees.

Figure 56 shows "plane guard station" as being 1000 yards distant, 165 degrees off carrier's course to starboard and maneuver for following the carrier as she slews around looking for the wind.

This book would be an excellent resource for diorama builders, with maneuvering diagrams and moring diargrams, including line and tug placement. 

Ditto the above.  For ships not in convoy, 1000 yards is getting very close--makes Navigators and their Captains very nervous.  Takes a lot of room to stop or turn large ships.

Which makes UnRep (underway replenishment) really exciting as that occurs about 150-200 apart, where there's also a sneaky effect where the wakes combine and create a suction between the vessels which takes a very deft touch on both helms as the only thing worse than a collision is parting span wires or fuel transfer hoses.  Doing this in Port & Starboard fashion in any but the calmest seas a remarkable feat of navigation.

For WWII air defense, you probably want 2-2500 yards apart, if only to have most for the 20-25mm AA rounds not fall on your own ships, mostly.

For ordinary "shelf-sized" boards, you need to use some "artistic license" to get 3 1:700 ships on, and it helps if they are different-sized, like a DD with a DDMS or APD and a fleet tug.

At 1:700, 1000 yards is around 51"; you'd need a 4x8 sheet of plywood to just show 4 cargo ships in a convoy.  The "Murderer's Row" photo with four flat-tops moored together would likely need a 12"x 96" board to carry off in a strict to-scale way.

i would like to say  thanks all of you for  your input

and i guess i will be cutting up this 2x3 plywood into individual  bases for various models now

i guess i will be cutting up this 2x3 plywood into individual  bases for various models now

Hey, never know when a nice big hank of plywood might come in handy. <G>

One thing I saw the once, somewhere, that I always wanted to do, was to have smaller scale "context" dios.  The one I saw used 1:2400 ships to show the formation of the Japanese carrier force, then had individual ships detailed out one at a time.

So, I've had this nagging "want to" to have like a 1:1200 display of a landing force; then a 1:87 or 1:72 slice of beachhead; then some individual kits of landing craft and amtracks and the like.  (ok, so painting 1:1200 LCVP and LCM is likely looney-making, especially with dozens needed--still, something to think about <g>).

Eek, 35' LCVP is 0.35" long in 1:1200 . . .

Sounds like a resin casting job. I love big dioramas, esp. with lighting effects and sound. That's why I was a big model railroader for a while before the space was converted to storage. I think you touched on it, but compressing scale is common enough. It certainly is in Model RR, where the minimum radius on the mainline is 600 feet or so, which at HO (1/87) is still 7 feet! Most layouts have radii more like 18"!. Many of those models you seen of a downtown etc. in the lobbies of City offices have greatly exaggerated building heights, anywhere from 2/1 to 4/1 or more. Otherwise the whole thing looks pretty flat. There was a thread where the fellow wanted to build a flakturm at 1/35 scale because of available figures. That'd be five feet high. Make a nice conversation piece in the living room.

I'd think in a sea diorama, you could get away with a 50% compression in plan. This is a reason why action dioramas are hard to pull off beyond manual combat.

LoL!  Need to resin cast batches of master just to make the moulds for a dozen 1:1200 LC, can't imagine turning out 3/8" long LC one at a time.

(Now, if I won the lottery; and had a stereolithography machine . . . <g>)

Bondoman hits on an important note, some compression works.  To my eye it works better with very different ship sizes.  Not bad to use a bit of "forced" in that mix, too--like using 1:400 with 1:350 or 1:720 in with 1:700.  A person could have a couple of 1/700 DDs trading station position with a 1/720 carrier to put the main scen in perspective (also fun for being able to use strong diagonals, and heeling ships in a turn to lend "action").

Tricky part, just like in MRR is running 70-80' cars around those minimal 22" & 18" radii tracks always "gives it away."  Interval in ship dios always catches my eye.  Not terribly surprising, spent some time getting those sorts of periphreal vision images "set" so as to spot "wrong" faster (as I said earlier only thing worse than Navigator worry is Captain worry spoken aloud).

CapnMac82 wrote:

LoL!  Need to resin cast batches of master just to make the moulds for a dozen 1:1200 LC, can't imagine turning out 3/8" long LC one at a time. (Now, if I won the lottery; and had a stereolithography machine . . . <g>) Bondoman hits on an important note, some compression works.  To my eye it works better with very different ship sizes.  Not bad to use a bit of "forced" in that mix, too--like using 1:400 with 1:350 or 1:720 in with 1:700.  A person could have a couple of 1/700 DDs trading station position with a 1/720 carrier to put the main scen in perspective (also fun for being able to use strong diagonals, and heeling ships in a turn to lend "action"). Tricky part, just like in MRR is running 70-80' cars around those minimal 22" & 18" radii tracks always "gives it away."  Interval in ship dios always catches my eye.  Not terribly surprising, spent some time getting those sorts of periphreal vision images "set" so as to spot "wrong" faster (as I said earlier only thing worse than Navigator worry is Captain worry spoken aloud).

The navigator says "Captain, without me we'd never return".

Captain gets out his .45  and lays it on the instrument panel. "You guys never do when you screw up".

There's a railroad scale called Z, which is 1/220. I use that with cars and figures in the background on my 1/160 (N) scale layout. The state of the art in that hobby is controlled viewpoint, ie from one side, through about 90 deg. In order to achieve that most newer layouts are shelf affairs that are long, rather than the classic 4x8 round and round. For the purposes of this discussion, there might be a pair of ships, one following, and a smaller scale ship in the background. 2x8 or 1x4 depending on the scale. There was also a very interesting point brought up regarding referential displays, which I think is very good. If you cared to model a task force, let's say a heavy cruiser, six destroyers and support stuff, it would be a nice model at 1/2400 on a two yard long board, or a little less if compressed. Then set a model of the CA in front of it.

One thing won't work- opposing forces. Firing at 10,000 yards is still 4 yards at 1/2400. And it only multiplies from there.

One thing won't work- opposing forces. Firing at 10,000 yards is still 4 yards at 1/2400. And it only multiplies from there.

No lie.  In the day of wargaming with 1;1200 miniatures, you needed access to the local school gymnasium.  Unlike armor wargaming, where the increment was one second, we used one minute.  But, the "turns" took a while just to manover all the vessels on the floor.  Further delays as the gameleader took out a tapemeasure to verify ranges.

10,000 yards is torpedo range.  Capitol ship engagements are 30 yards on the floor at 1:1200 <G>

Bantha fodder! I actually wanted to put a Trumpeter 1/350 Hornet(converted to Big E) with a heavy cruiser.

And you guys are talking about 1/700 and minimum of 2 feet!?!?Ouch.

So, having a modern Ticonderoga(DDG-47) slipping past a WW2 Ticonderoga(CV-14) during flight ops and scarring the out of the crew [remember Final Countdown?] would be acceptable?

Allen109 wrote:

Bantha fodder! I actually wanted to put a Trumpeter 1/350 Hornet(converted to Big E) with a heavy cruiser. And you guys are talking about 1/700 and minimum of 2 feet!?!?Ouch. So, having a modern Ticonderoga(DDG-47) slipping past a WW2 Ticonderoga(CV-14) during flight ops and scarring the out of the crew [remember Final Countdown?] would be acceptable?

At 1/350 the box around a large ship at 2000 yards is 6 yards.

I haven't seen the movie so I have no idea of the passing distance. And again, selective compression will work.

I am going to guess that there's a whole body of knowledge concerning the qualitative effects of sea dioramas, and I am interested in getting into it. In my practice we do a lot of 3D modeling, although its more and more "virtual". One rule is a constant though, and it's hard to express. Accuracy in the depiction of a scene is less important than shaping peoples expectations. Or perhaps in this case, meeting them.

Like 1/48 airplanes in a dogfight. At a closing range of 300 yards or so, thats still 6 yards. 

Maybe 3 yards still works in a diorama, but most people if given two model airplanes and asked to depict one behind the other would hold them at most at arms length.

The best idea IMHO I've heard so far in this very interesting thread is mixing up ships. I suggested Battleship Row only as a way of giving a scale element that we are all very familiar with. Sea mules, barges, tugs, mooring towers; one could model the Arizona only in 1/350 and easily occupy a 30 inch square with that stuff, never mind the Vestal.

I'm building a model of the Ford Island Control Tower in 1/350; it's about 4 inches tall. Add the ground around it and a row of B-18s and it's a 48 inch square dio. I'm going to compress it to 30x30.