Question about deadeyes and blocks

Just had a look in the rigging loft at Mystic where all the rigging for the Morgan has been prefabricated and stored. The blocks are white. The deadeyes already installed appear to be a dark brown. Just saw a color picture of the rigging on the Eagle. The blocks are painted a buff color to match the yards.

Of course this is in the contemporary time period. Who knows what the colors might have been years ago.

You were asking about after market cannons, so here's a pic of the Blue Jacket britania metall carronade compared to the one that comes w/ the kit. I ended up using the ones from the kit. They seem to have a better 'presence' than Blue Jackets guns. Note that the BJ carronade is a bit shorter. Also the carriage from the kit is for the forward 24 pounders. The carronades are all glued down and I could not get a side by side pic of it, but the guns are all the same. Hope this helps.

There was a discussion several years ago on the color of "tarred" rigging.  It was pointed out that they were tarred with pitch, not what we think of as tar, the pavement material.  Pitch is more brown color.  Awhile after that I toured the Brig Niagara at a tall ship festival.  The rigging was quite black, so I asked one of the crew, who happened to have been with the ship since its construction and fitting.  She said the rigging did look more brown for a time, but pretty quickly aged in the sunlight to the familiar black.  It looked like the deadeyes were a mix of a dark brown aged-wood look and black from the pitch.  The color seemed to vary from deadeye to deadeye, depending on how much pitch got slopped on it :-)

You're a sick man, sub subfixer.

tankerbuilder

HI having owned a two masted sailing boat for about five years I believe I can help. I was talking to a fellow who was involved in my re-rig after an unfortunate incident with a out of control ski boat. (He went airborne from something he hit and dismasted me) This worker at the rigging loft(the sails were done there) told me his dad always complained when they worked on "big" ships in the thirties when he was just a pre-teen apprentice in the yard. His job,Well ,wouldn,t you know ! He was kept out of harms way by oiling blocks. They used whale oil, linseed oil ,seal oil and cheated sometimes and used coal oil (KEROSENE!)and black oil. This oil was like heavy duty gear oil. ,LET them soak, then pull them out and wipe to a light dry sheen. By the time they went in the rigging they were not sticky to the touch .His grandfather, ascertained to the youngster that dad was telling the truth!       tankerbuilder

I have it that Popeye the sailor preferred olive oyl. 

Try this link:  store.ussconstitutionmuseum.org/.../uss-constitution-plans-for-model-ship-builders-and-general-researchers.  I have the CD and I has everything that you need.

Jim

Made several of the projects in that book. The sea bag was made on my first job in a commercial ship. The ditty bag, in my third. Made the wall bag, started the chest beckets and still have them ready to continue when I have time. Made several binocular straps using the decorative knots he's got in there as well as a number of fancy paddles, a needle case of bamboo and at least one bell rope. Fun stuff for sure.

I agree with Prof. Tilley that linseed oil is not necessarily the specific oil used in the 19th century.

Hervey Garrett Smith's writings were not historical treatises rather he wrote about 'how it was done and how you can do it yourself' for a mid-20th century audience. Bearing that in mind he would suggest materials that were available, at that time, to the average boater wanting to go 'old school'. In some articles Smith would give mention to the, often no longer available, original materials with a reccomendation for substitution.

While aimed at boaters rather than modelers and historians Smith's book is a worthy addition to the bookshelf, plus doing projects from the book is just plain fun.

 

 

HI having owned a two masted sailing boat for about five years I believe I can help. I was talking to a fellow who was involved in my re-rig after an unfortunate incident with a out of control ski boat. (He went airborne from something he hit and dismasted me) This worker at the rigging loft(the sails were done there) told me his dad always complained when they worked on "big" ships in the thirties when he was just a pre-teen apprentice in the yard. His job,Well ,wouldn,t you know ! He was kept out of harms way by oiling blocks. They used whale oil, linseed oil ,seal oil and cheated sometimes and used coal oil (KEROSENE!)and black oil. This oil was like heavy duty gear oil. ,LET them soak, then pull them out and wipe to a light dry sheen. By the time they went in the rigging they were not sticky to the touch .His grandfather, ascertained to the youngster that dad was telling the truth!       tankerbuilder

I'm not sure that linseed oil, specifically, was the "oil" these guys used - but it probably was something similar.  In any case, I don't think anybody's going to argue that a late-eighteenth- or early-nineteenth-century American warship with black rigging blocks and deadeyes is "wrong."  If I were building a Constitution (heaven forbid), that's probably how I'd deal with the problem.

I do strongly recommend replacing eyebolts, belaying pins, and hammock netting stanchions.  Styrene plastic is a wonderful, versatile material, but there are some fittings in a ship model for which it just isn't appropriate. 

Good luck.

After reading the information from Jon, it would appear that its quite possible that the deadeyes & blocks were black from age. I saw a picture last night of deadeyes in the rigging that were black as night but you could easily see the grain with a shiny finish.

I never gave any thought about them using linseed oil as a preservative nor did I think that it would turn dark over time, but I'm basing that on having seen rifle stocks finished with several coats of "boiled linseed oil" (aka BLO) rubbed into wood at room temperature rather than soaking the part while boiling .

In the section on "Deadeyes and Lanyards" in his book The Marlinspike Sailor (a 1956 compendium of articles on traditional seamanship from his column in The Rudder) Hervey Garret Smith (1/17/1896 - 11/12/1979) mentions that elm had been the preferred material for deadeyes until superseded by lignum vitae in 19th century, and states the following concerning finishing:" Cooking the deadeyes in hot linseed oil for several hours will help prevent checking and make them weatherproof."

In a section on making rope-stropped blocks (BTW when Smith is speaking of deadeyes or blocks if it is iron-bound he uses 'strap', if rope-bound it is 'strop') he gives more detail on the oiling process: "Submerge the shell in a can of raw linseed oil and heat until it starts to boil. Cook it for one-half hour or three hours. The longer you cook it the better it will be. Then wipe the shell dry and set aside for a week or so to harden."

Being oiled in this fashion would darken but not blacken the wood, however it would continue to darken over time.

Jon

 

There's no point in worrying about how to measure the length of the gun barrels in this case. Regardless of how you do it, there's no guarantee that the manufacturer of the aftermarket part did it the same way.  There is, unfortunately, no substitute for getting the aftermarket part in your hands and comparing it to the drawing of the real thing.

There's no universally applicable rule for using the "next larger" or "next smaller" size of gun (or any other component) if you can't match the ones in the kit exactly.  "When in doubt, err on the small side" is a good general-purpose standard, but you may find that the "next smaller" size of gun barrel either looks ridiculously small or doesn't fit the kit carriages.  Again, there's no real way around the problem other than to get a sample of the aftermarket part in your hand. 

That was a nice feature of the old-fashioned, well-stocked local hobby shop.  You could take your kit part in and compare it with all the available alternatives.  Ah, for the Goode Olde Dayes.  We should, on the other hand, remember that in those Dayes the number of aftermarket parts available was much smaller than it is now.  I question whether it would be possible in this day and age for any one store to stock more than a small fraction of what's being produced for all the aircraft, armor, modern warship, and sailing ship modelers - to say nothing of the model railroaders.

The carriages in the Revell kit are tapered correctly.  The ones on the maindeck are simplified, one-piece moldings; they're difficult to see on the finished product.  The one long gun that's fully exposed, the bow chaser, has a nice, multi-piece carriage.  The carronade carriages are simplified a bit, but not bad.

Ship modelers have had lots of interesting discussions about the color of rigging line, and there's certainly room for argument - and personal taste - about it.  In the British Royal Navy of the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries it was a matter of law that all rope purchased for the use of warships be soaked in Stockholm tar.  I've never seen Stockholm tar, but it's reliably reported to have been a rich, medium brown in color.  That's appropriate for the running rigging of a British warship of that period. 

It seems to have been standard practice to "blacken" the standing rigging, after it was set up, with one of several concoctions that contained tar, lampblack, sulphur, and various other disgusting, smelly things.  If the rope treated that way wasn't pure black, it must have been pretty close.

I know of no reliable documentation about the color of rigging line in the U.S. Navy of 1812.  But it seems reasonable to assume that the Americans did such things about the same way the British did.  Lots of modelers (including me) use brown thread for the running rigging and black for the standing rigging.  Two golden rules about ship model rigging:  1.  When in doubt as to color, err on the dark side.  2.  When in doubt as to size, err on the small side. 

An iron-stropped block would be a rarity in a ship of this period.  In reality the typical block-and-strop assembly of the late eighteenth or early nineteenth century would be a rather complex piece of marlinspike seamanship.  The strop would be a piece of rope spliced into a circle (called a becket), soaked in tar (probably), and then seized around the block in such a way that an eye was formed on one or both sides of it.  (From the middle of the nineteenth century onward, there might well be an iron thimble in the middle of the eye.)  The rigging line would then be passed through the eye and have an eyesplice worked into it to hold it there.  There were all sorts of variations on that theme, but that's the basic idea. 

I think it's safe to say that, at 1/96 scale, few if any modelers try to represent block strops separately.  Buy the rope-stropped variety (i.e., the kind that just has a groove around it), and secure the rigging line itself around the block.  Actually, the blocks in the Revell kits, if carefully painted, would represent blocks with rope beckets reasonably well.  But even the smaller size in the Constitution kit is mighty big for 1/96 scale.

CapnMac82's suggestion about getting different sizes of rigging line is an excellent one; using a wide variety of diameters greatly improves the look of the model without increasing the amount of difficulty or time involved.  The number of different sizes in the real ship would have been in the dozens, but three to five will make a huge difference in the model.  If you use a "marker" to color the line, read the label on the marker carefully.  Some of those things are, to all intents and purposes, permanent; others start fading in a matter of weeks.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

The aftermarket brass and wood ones, especially the european ones, have a dreadful flaw of the sides of the carriages not being tapered to match the barrels.

It's been too long for me to remember (about 3 decades) the Revell 1/96 Connie, and whether the carriages were tapered.  In a coat of red or green paint, not so noticable, really.  I used Floquil Engine black on the main deck barrels as a compromise.  (I used testor's Black Chrome for the after carronades with a drybrush of matt black--could have just used Oily Black and called it even, for the effort.)

If you get pewter--and I happen to really prefer Bluejacket's Brittainia--go shorter rather than longer.  Too big will not sit in the gun port right, and extend too far inboard (which makes the rigging more complicated).

Profesor T would recommend replecing the eyebolts and the belaying pins, and I'd agree with him.  I'd recommend hitting up the LHS, or craft store, for all the diameters of annealled steel wire.  This has many uses.  Footropes that actually "hang" from the yards, for one.  Stropping blocks for another.  Really good use is for futtock shrouds that do not "bend" the ratlines they are made up to.

When you have the catalogs handy, get several sizes of line, get smaller sizes in particular--in rigging, smaller is always better.  Color is up for grabs, but a sharpie will blacken line rather nicely until you get up to shroud dimensions, but, buying only three sizes of black is cheaper than 5-6.

Oh, and were I to do it again, I'd likely close the maindeck gunports and trice up the guns.  And, in all fairness that would be so as to not draw attention to how thin the hull sides are in plastic--but, that's my own peccadillo; others' vary.

Hi John,

Thanks for your answer about everything I had inquired about. I had thought about painting or weathering the deadeyes and blocks in a dark color that they might have been when the ship was built and to try and give some contrast to the rigging. If that color turns out to be black then maybe I can try different color shrouds, but only if its historically accurate.

I have seen some models where the chosen colors compliment the whole model and blend in. OTOH, I have seen other models where the details look nice separately but do not work well together with the rest of the model.

Regarding the cannon, I'll try to find drawings of the real cannon and compare them to the Revell and aftermarket cannon . At the moment I don't think the carriages will be a problem.

I do have two questions about the cannon. When you measure them do you measure OAL with or w/o the cascabel?

If the aftermarket cannon are a hair too short or too long, which one should you choose?

 

Thanks,

Martin

The color of blocks and deadeyes is an interesting question, with, I'm afraid, no simple answer.

Just about every deadeye I've ever seen on an actual ship has been black.  I suspect the "blackening" that got put on the standing rigging (during most periods) also got brushed on the deadeyes - or they may have been painted. 

I'm not at all sure that comment is applicable prior to the mid-eighteenth century.  The grand old "Navy Board models" almost invariably have unpainted blocks and deadeyes.  (That doesn't really prove anything, though.  All sorts of components on those models are unpainted that probably were painted in real life.)  On the other hand, I've seen photos of a seventeenth-century Dutch warship model whose deadeyes were white.

I've also seen examples in which the straps of the lower deadeyes (in cases where those were separate from the chainplates) were painted white, making a pretty snappy contrast with the deadeyes themselves.  

The subject of the color of blocks is more complicated.  I have the impression that, prior to the nineteenth century, blocks typically were made of elm, which was given a coat of oil (whatever that term may mean in this contexts) as a means of protecting the block from the elements.  The color would have been a rich brown, which would darken as the ship got older.  In later years blocks might well be painted black or, in a surprising number of cases, white.  (The blocks of the Cutty Sark are white.  Her deadeyes are black, but the seizings of the shrouds above the deadeyes are white.  If I remember correctly, the blocks of the Charles W. Morgan were white the last time I saw her.) 

It would, of course, be a mistake to assume that a given block was all one color.  If it was rope-stropped, the strop probably would be the natural color of the rope.  If it was iron-stropped, the strop almost certainly would be black.  The sheave, in early periods, would be lignum vitae - an extremely dark brown wood.  In later periods the sheave would be iron.  Fortunately none of this makes much difference to the model builder - unless the scale of the model is really big.

The only real answer to the problem is to find a photo or contemporary painting of the ship, and hope you can discern the color of the blocks.  There's a good chance that you won't be able to, because the rigging will only show up in silhouette.  But if the blocks are white you may be able to tell that's the case.

I took some photos of the Constitution a couple of years ago.  At that time most, if not all, of her blocks were painted black.  We all know, though, that she's been through lots of changes during her career; what color the blocks were in 1812 is anybody's guess.  (I just looked at some pictures of the Isaac Hull model that I took that same summer.  It's hard to tell much from those shots except that the blocks are extremely dark.  That model is so old that unpainted wood parts of it are almost black.)

That's about all I can offer on that one.  When I was working on my little model of H.M.S. Bounty, using Bluejacket cast britannia metal blocks and deadeyes, I spent a considerable amount of time painting the blocks brown.  Several years later, when I was rigging my scratchbuilt Continental frigate Hancock, I convinced myself that she might well have had black blocks.  That decision let me use Bluejacket's "Pewter Black," rather than paint them.  (I don't know just how many of the little boogers went into that model, but I'm pretty sure the total was well over a thousand.)  My standard assembly-line method was (1) figure out how many blocks I needed to rig the three or four lines I was working on that evening.  (2) Clean them up, using a knife-edged file to remove any casting burrs or flash and clean up the groove for the strop, and a drill bit to ream out the sheave hole.  (3) Thread the blocks onto a piece of wire.  (4) Dunk the whole assembly into the "Pewter Black."  (The instructions recommend dilluting it with water, but I confess I've always used it full-strength.)  (5) Lay the assembly on a folded piece of Kleenex to dry for a few minutes.  (6) Shoot it with a can of Testor's Dullcoat.  (The blackener has a tendency to rub off otherwise.)

Regarding guns - the ones in the Revell kit aren't bad, though they're simplified a bit.  (Caveat:  I'm working from memory here, and I havent actually had one of those kits in my hand for many years.)  My recollection is that the overall proportions are about right, but the nitty-gritty details of the rings around the barrels are simplified quite a bit - especially those of the long guns.  One potential problem:  when you're cleaning them up, you'll be tempted to use a round file to make the holes in the muzzles perfectly round.  Be careful; it's easy to be over-enthusiastic and make the bore so oversized that it looks silly.  (That's the kind of mistake you can make when you've been staring at the thing for hours and it's late at night.  The goof then becomes hideously obvious the next day, when you've got fresh eyes.)

Whether you can do better with aftermarket guns is questionable.  The available range isn't as large as we'd like, and the accuracy and level of detail is highly variable.  My suggestion is:  take a look at the offerings from Bluejacket and Model Expo.  Compare the dimensions and pictures in the web catalogs to a good drawing of the real gun, and if it looks like the aftermarket product is pretty close, order one.  But don't shell out the money for a full broadside until you've had a chance to look at the real product.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.