WWII historians...help!!

...a very nice guy and has a lot going for him in many respects, but may I suggest W D Dickson's Battle of the Philippine Sea ? or, for that matter, anything that Dickson has written on the IJN ?

Randy Stone

Barrett Tillman's "Clash of the Carriers" is a good one.

http://www.btillman.com/

That was indeed Japan's strategy against the West. Japan knew it could not truly occupy and conquer the US, and that was never their goal. Instead their aim was to conquer the resources they needed in Asia, build a defensive perimeter, and then attrit Allied forces until negotiations commenced and a peace treaty was signed. But, as is well known, the manner in which Pearl Harbor and the outbreak of the Pacific war occured, removed that possibility.

As Yamamoto is often quoted, "I can run wild against them for six months to a year, after that I can promise nothing."

tucchase wrote:

Randy Stone wrote: the Japanese had nothing like the industrial base to handle the needs of the Pacific War. Randy Stone Which is why Admiral Yamamoto said that if they didn't win within six months, Japan would lose the war.  The Battle of Midway ended exactly six months to the day after Pearl Harbor.  Ironic!

In WW2, Japan, and Germany, felt that large "operational" defeats, such as Pearl Harbor, Dunkirk, and Kiev would cause the US, Great Britain and Russia to come to the table for terms...what was underestimated was the resolve of all three that allowed their industrial bases to kick into a long-term industrial war that neither Japan or Germany had any chance of winning...

Randy Stone wrote:

the Japanese had nothing like the industrial base to handle the needs of the Pacific War. Randy Stone

Which is why Admiral Yamamoto said that if they didn't win within six months, Japan would lose the war.  The Battle of Midway ended exactly six months to the day after Pearl Harbor.  Ironic!

...it looks like one of the Hiryu Zeroes returning from the second strike ditched and its pilot was recovered; that's one less aviator loss.  I'm just reading and skimming in between work, play, pleasure and life here; but Lundstrom is as helpful as Shattered Sword.

In addition to a shortage of airframes--the Kate line was even reopened for a time when Nakajima's Jill ran into production startup problems--the Japanese had ordnance supply problems as well.  That's one reason why Lexington was attacked off Rabaul with bomb-toting Betties rather than torpedo carrying birds.

And while the United States had many problems with aircraft availability (Hornet left the West Coast with only some 65 carrier aircraft)--Saratoga's torpedoing in early '42 released many aircraft which then filled out operational squadrons--as well as with supplies of self-sealing tanks, armor and the like, the Japanese had nothing like the industrial base to handle the needs of the Pacific War.

Randy Stone

Randy Stone wrote:

One thing which bears comment--and I think Shattered Sword addresses this--is that the Japanese were not exactly flush with aircraft after six months of operations.

It is amazing that the Japanese only produced 1,300 of their excellent Kate torpedo bombers and only 1,400 of their very effective Val dive bombers during the war.  These numbers are tiny compared to, for example, the number of US Dauntless SBD dive bombers built: 6,000...

...6 Zeroes were lost in attacks on Yorktown while four Kates were lost during the morning Midway attacks; there were many, many washouts from Hiryu alone courtesy of the Midway attack, but no further aircrew KIA.  That brings the number up to 62 with 6 CAP birds shot down during the day, for a possible 68.  Time to account for the six CAP planes and 4 more bodies to hit 72.

Randy Stone

stikpusher wrote:

Those are just the strikes against Yorktown. If you add in the morning Midway strike, the figures are higher. her kates flew two strikes that day, one against Midway, and one against thw Yorktown. Her Vals flew only one strike, and took severe casualties on that one (over 66%).

subfixer wrote:

tucchase wrote: I cannot use Quotes here.  I am getting "Non matching quote blocks in post" when I click the Post button.  This is regardless of whether I modify the quoted area or not. Remove the apostrophe in Manstein's, it is the culprit.

Thanks Subfixer!  You would think they could tell the difference between a Quote and an Apostrophe.  Especially when the quotes used are written out.  They must have changed something in the programming.  I haven't had this problem until today, and I have quoted Manny several times.

So we just destroyed the carriers, but the Japanese actually sank them!  It figures.  Their torpedoes actually worked.

tucchase wrote:

I cannot use Quotes here.  I am getting "Non matching quote blocks in post" when I click the Post button.  This is regardless of whether I modify the quoted area or not.

Remove the apostrophe in Manstein's, it is the culprit.

I cannot use Quotes here.  I am getting "Non matching quote blocks in post" when I click the Post button.  This is regardless of whether I modify the quoted area or not.

stikpusher wrote:

Lets take Hiryu's B5N group (Kates) as an example. 18 launched for the morning Midway strike. 10 launched (including one battle damaged flown by Tomonaga and one "orphan" from Akagi) for Afternoon torpedo strike on Yorktown. I believe 5 (including Akagi "orphan") returned to Hiryu. Net total of opertional Hiryu B5Ns left, four. Out of 18 avaliable operational that morning. Not a very high survivability rate.

Accoding to my refs, two strikes were launched from Hiryu...

...the first: 18 Vals and 6 Zeros, with a loss of 13 of the Vals = 26 airman lost...

...the second: 10 Kates and 6 Zeros, with a loss of 6 Kates and 3 Zeros = 21 airman lost...

So according to my refs, in just these two actions, 47 Japanese airman from Hiryu were lost.

Also, according to my refs, the Japanese carriers were hit as follows:

Akagi: 2 bomb hits, Kaga: 4 bomb hits, Soryu: 3 bomb hits, Hiryu: 4 bomb hits...Interstingly, the US sank all four w/o any torpedo strikes, which the Japanese preferred over bombs in anti-shipping strikes...

tucchase wrote:

They were probably in the Pilot Briefing room getting their new orders to return to Midway Island, while their planes were being re-armed and refueled, and abandoned ship from the hanger deck.  If one of the bombs had penetrated in the right spot the aircrew losses would have been catastrophic to say the least.  Maybe Hiryu lost so many because that bomb did hit the right spot!  Does Shattered Sword specify how the pilots died?  In combat, or otherwise?

...quite an extensive write-up in Shattered Sword about losses.  Hiryu, as mentioned earlier, took quite a beating inasmuch as she was the antagonist vis-a-vis Yorktown, which cost both vessels.  The CAP losses--in fact--CAP sorties are fully listed in one of the appendices; CAP pilot losses were not high, in any event.  Shattered Sword will no doubt not be the final word on Japan's part at Midway, but it surely is among the finest.

Randy Stone

They were probably in the Pilot Briefing room getting their new orders to return to Midway Island, while their planes were being re-armed and refueled, and abandoned ship from the hanger deck.  If one of the bombs had penetrated in the right spot the aircrew losses would have been catastrophic to say the least.  Maybe Hiryu lost so many because that bomb did hit the right spot!  Does Shattered Sword specify how the pilots died?  In combat, or otherwise?

Randy Stone wrote:

The facts are as follows; aircrew losses among the four carriers over the course of the entire battle:  Akagi (6); Kaga (21); Hiryu (72); Soryu (10) ...110 in total plus 11 men in floatplanes for a grand total of 121 Japanese flyers lost at Midway.  Source: Shattered Sword, pages 476 and 579.

...arguing anything, much less technicalities.  I'm just trying to follow the facts. 

Depending on the precise manner of counting, the Kido Butai took some 458 aviators into action at Midway, less floatplane crew.  That brings us to a loss rate of about 24%.  Over the years the myth has assumed 'most' or 'all' of the aviators were lost at Midway, explaining the IJN fall from preeminence.  Much of this error is--in my estimation--the result of Morison, who is readily available and periodically reprinted.  A 'mining' of the bibliographies of various books which address various aspects of the Pacific War invariably turn up Morison to the exclusion of primary research or of later research by more fortunate or informed authors than Morison was, or chose to be.

However, during the Guadalcanal Campaign, the Japanese lost 110 aviators at the Eastern Solomons and 145 at Santa Cruz, for the net loss of Hornet.  This is an obvious simplification of matters all around but it should indicate--setting aside the issue of land-based units, which would overwhelmingly tip the scales--that it was in the Solomons where the Japanese Naval Air Force was decimated, wholly aside from other factors such as crew rotation, replacement, training and airframe development and replacement.

I'm not trying to be a geek here about carrier operations in the Pacific War but I am a geek about it and it's always nice--and I believe interesting to boot--to have the true record of what occurred rather than what has been presented over the years, however sincerely.  I learned at the feet of several who have forgotten more than I will ever know about this topic but when I want to find out about some topic or other, I think it's important to go to the experts and the sources themselves.  I did and that's where I'm at.

And it's always nice to gab with someone else who shares similar interests.

Randy Stone

When that figure is leveled among the four carriers, is that somethign like 1/3 of all their pilots? That is still a serious chunk. I would not call that part of Midway a myth so much as an exagerration. There would be only two more carrier battles (Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) in 1942 before nearly all the rest of the pre war IJN flyers were gone. Most of the IJN avaitor casualties during the Solomons fighting were land based from Rabaul, and while their losses were just as staggering to the Japanese war effort, most of those were not carrier aviators.

A large portion portion of US aviator casualties at Midway were land based Marines. While all the US air groups suffered heavily in their torpedo squadrons, only Enterprise had significant losses among her Scout and Bombing squadrons.

Randy Stone wrote:

...that the loss of 110 aviators was not the 'cream of the IJN' or that it did not represent 'irreplaceable experience.'  My comment was that it is a myth to assert--as Morison, among others, did (in his The Two-Ocean War, page 160) that "...Nagumo lost most of (his) pilots..." which represents perhaps the start of the myth in Western circles. The facts are as follows; aircrew losses among the four carriers over the course of the entire battle:  Akagi (6); Kaga (21); Hiryu (72); Soryu (10) ...110 in total plus 11 men in floatplanes for a grand total of 121 Japanese flyers lost at Midway.  Source: Shattered Sword, pages 476 and 579. Randy Stone

Well, I guess if you want to argue a technicality, the question has to be how many pilots did Nagumo start with.  If it was 241 or less, then he did, in fact, lose most of his pilots.  'Course, that is pretty nit-picky (and I have NO idea how many pilots they had to start).