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PT-109

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  • Member since
    November 2005
PT-109
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 28, 2003 6:12 PM
I'm getting ready to start the PT-109 and need some info or advise. mainly looking for the color.
TIA
Shawn
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: USA
Posted by weebles on Monday, December 29, 2003 6:56 AM
Hello Shawn,
I think I can help you here. I'm in the middle of a major PT Boat project in 1/48 scale. I've done considerable research on the 80' Elco boats. Are you building the 1/72 scale Revell kit? If so I can get you as detailed as you want to be.

To start you off the boat was MTB Green. MTB (motor torpedo boat) Green was sort of a home brew. I would suggest ordering some of this paint from White Ensign Models in England. They have done considerable research on this and I think they have it just right. You'll need an airbrush to lay it on. It's a very unique shade of green which has a sort of gray tone to it. For the bottom you'll need an antifouling red. This would be sort of a brick red color. White Ensign can sell this to you but you can probably find something similar in another brand.

I'll wait to hear from you.
Dave
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: USA
Posted by weebles on Monday, December 29, 2003 7:12 AM
Shawn, I hunted around and found a pretty good article on improving the Revell kit. Here is the link. There are considerable differences between this build and the 109. Confirm that this is the boat you're building and we'll go from there.
Dave

http://cybermodeler.com/hobby/builds/rm_pt-117.shtml

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 10:39 AM
Hey Dave,
Yes i am building the 1/72 Revell kit, and will take any info u will give me, does White Ensign have a web address, and thanks for the link, i
Thanks
Shawn
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Central MI
Posted by therriman on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 6:25 PM
www.whiteensignmodels.com
Tim H. "If your alone and you meet a Zero, run like hell. Your outnumbered" Capt Joe Foss, Guadalcanal 1942 Real Trucks have 18 wheels. Anything less is just a Toy! I am in shape. Hey, Round is a shape! Reality is a concept not yet proven.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: USA
Posted by weebles on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:28 PM
First off use the link I gave you above as a reference for basic improvement of the kit. If you have any questions about what you see there let me know and I'll explain in detail. Much of which is written can be confusing if you don't understand the boat.

Okay, let's start at the bow and work out way to the stern of the boat.
1. Do not install the standards on the deck which hold the hand ropes. These were removable and that's exactly what the crews did. You wont see these on any of the boats in combat.
2. Do not install the the flag staff. Same thing. It is removable in real life and they were disgarded.
3. The 109 did not have a life raft on the deck. Typically these were stowed on top of the Day Cabin and sometimes the chart house. More on that later but the bottom line is that the 109 probably didn't have it's life raft when Kennedy got it.
4. The deck in general. While the early Elco boats were planked on the kit it doesn't look scale. If you have the patience consider masking off the deck detail and sanding out the wood grain effect.
5. The 109 had depth charges mounted just forward of the forward torpedo tubes. There was an accident and the port torpedo drove the port depth charge through the deck. It was repaired but at the time of the sinking the 109 had a starboard depth charge. If you need a drawing I can probably scan it and email it to you.
6. Torpedo tubes sit way to high on the kit. You can do as the author explains and remanufacture the tubes. You can also shave down the mounts a little to get it closer to scale.
7. The 109 cockpit was rebuilt. Originally the 109 had a glass windscreen. That was replaced by armor all the way around. In the article you can see on the side view of the chart house a dotted line. That's how the 109 was. To model all this sand off the detail that show the brackets for the glass all around the cockpit. Just smooth it out. Or consider getting some thin plastic sheet stock and rebuilding the whole cockpit. I'm going to give you some links that might show what I'm trying to say. It's difficult to explain. Another detail on the 109 boat is the light bracket. There was a light bracket not modeled on the kit on the port side of the cockpit. Instead of the light on the end of the pole they could mount it next to the cockpit. This is missing on the 109 boat and all that is left are the mounting holes. You could drill these holes for a nice detail that most would probably miss.
8. The windows on the front of the chart house were pained over. The windows on the side of the chart house are clear. However these boats had covers on the inside of the chart house and they were left closed most all the time. You can model this by painting and floating some future where the window would be to simulate the glass.
9. The 109 did not operate with the mast up. It is entirely possible that the mast didn't exist. I spoke with the skipper of PT-105 and he told me that it was either stowed or gone. My guess is that it was removed or lost based on similar photographs of boats not sporting the mast. Remember that the 109 was already a veteran when Kenney took command.
10. There was no radar on the 109.
11. The kit decals are all screwed up. Don't use them. The lettering on the 109 was small and there was nothing on the bow. You will find 109 markings on the front of the chart house, side of the turret, and on the mounting for the 20mm on the stern. Look at the photos and see if you can find some similar numbers as dry transfers. Maybe White Ensign Models has some ideas here.


Here are some links to PT Boat information. Check out all the links at PT Boats Inc. Also the last link here has some photos of the 109.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mandm/ptboatp1.htm
http://www.ptboats.org/
http://www.mysticaquarium.org/newthings/articles/pt109main.asp

Okay, that should get you going. Feel free to reach out to me anytime with any question you might have. I love these boats!
Dave
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: New Zealand
Posted by nicholma on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 5:32 AM
What great timing. I also am about to start this kit. WEM said a few days ago "When lost, PT-109 was painted in "Tropical Green", an unofficial color that was created by mixing 5-TM blue tinting paste AND 5-GTM green tinting paste with 5-U white. It's a fairly intense blue-green. For the underwater hull, you can use our Colourcoats Norfolk 65-A Antifouling Red (item number US14)." They don't currently have the green in their Colourcoat range so any other suggestions?

That link and your suggestions will be extremely useful, thanks Dave.

Mark
Kia ora, Mark "Time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas"
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: USA
Posted by weebles on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:58 AM
Hello Mark,
I got into a long discussion with WEM and Snyder & Short on this subject. I just looked at the Snyder & Short message board and John Snyder now says that he was told by Al Ross (Guru) that the boat was painted a variation of Tropical Green and not the MTB green they produce. They've mixed up something they think is close and aren't sure if they'll even produce it. That said they go on to say that their MTB green would be a good choice since nobody really knows what the color looks like. When I exchanged letters with Dick Keresey who was the skipper of PT-105 he said that the boat was gray. His boat was painted the same color as the 109. Don't confuse it with the original gray because they were repainted in Panama prior to deployment. Another source told me that they mixed black and yellow to get the color because that's what they had. This came from somebody who was there when they painted the boats. If you look at photos of the 103 class boats while in the Solomons they are very dark in color, or at least appear to be that way. Black and White photos can be difficult to interpret.

Confused? I sure am. Every time I think I'm close another curve ball comes by. Just for grins I think I'll pick up some black and yellow and mix them together and see what comes of it. I'll let you know.

Just tell yourself this is part of the fun of modeling.Wink [;)]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 9:51 AM
Hey Guys
This is very useful, and with this info I think i will go all out on this build and Dave please send me a drawing of that depth charge. and Thanks for all lthe info. I am using the the build up review as a guide.
Thanks
Shawn
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 9:55 AM
Hey Dave
i forgot my email address here it is aerosht@yahoo.com
and thanks again
Shawn
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: USA
Posted by weebles on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 6:51 PM
Hey Shawn,
I'll get to it as quickly as I can. Maybe tomorrow if all goes well.

As for color the more I think about it the more it makes sense to listen to the guys that were there. As I mentioned before a guy that says he was there said they just mixed some yellow and black paint. So I went to the hobby shop and picked up some black and yellow and started mixing. Viola! Dark green! I think what I will do is mix some samples, take some black and white photos of the samples, and compare them to the photos. Perhaps that will give us the home brew color we're looking for. Make sense? I'll let you know how it works out.

One thing I can tell you for sure is that the MTB Green from White Ensign Models looks just like the green they used on the reconstruction of the late model PT's at the PT boat museum at Battleship Cove.
Dave
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Central MI
Posted by therriman on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 9:43 PM
Remember guys that most of these boats served in the harsh, tropical south pacific sun. So any color used would have lightened quickly over time.
Tim H. "If your alone and you meet a Zero, run like hell. Your outnumbered" Capt Joe Foss, Guadalcanal 1942 Real Trucks have 18 wheels. Anything less is just a Toy! I am in shape. Hey, Round is a shape! Reality is a concept not yet proven.
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: New Zealand
Posted by nicholma on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 10:25 PM
Thanks Guys. I know this is a bit like the provebial "how long is a piece of string" but I've been trying to find aftermarket stuff in 1/72nd. DJParkens prduces some very nice stuff including a 20mm gun but mainly for the Flower Class corvette, John Haynes produces a 20mm gun and a number of fittings are produced by H-R Products including a 7" siren, smoke generator and 20mm guns amongst others. Has anyone any experience/knowledge of these or could suggest other manufacturers?

Dave could you also email me those depth charge drawings, nichollsmk@xtra.co.nz.

Cheers,

Mark
Kia ora, Mark "Time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas"
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: USA
Posted by weebles on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 11:42 PM
Tim, you are correct. If you look at the photos of these boats in combat they weren't well maintained. I have a late war photo of PT-105 and it's evident that the paint had faded significantly. During the early days at Rendova they were still pretty dark though. They also have quite a bit of grime on them. Photos of the 109 as it was transported from Panama show a very dark oily stain on the water line.

Mark, I'll be glad to include you on the drawing distribution.
Dave
  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Virginia, USA
Posted by samreichart on Thursday, January 1, 2004 3:04 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by nicholma

SNIP DJParkens prduces some very nice stuff including a 20mm gun but mainly for the Flower Class corvette, John Haynes produces a 20mm gun and a number of fittings are produced by H-R Products including a 7" siren, smoke generator and 20mm guns amongst others. Has anyone any experience/knowledge of these or could suggest other manufacturers?SNIP


Try Don at Loyalhanna Dockyard.

www.loyalhannadockyard.com

He carries quite a bit of addons...
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur :)
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: USA
Posted by weebles on Saturday, January 3, 2004 9:35 AM
Hello guys, I hope you were able to get the email I sent to you. I included a photo of PT-107 which should give you a good idea of paint and layout of the 103 class Elco at Rendova. I also included photos of PT-117 as well as drawings of the 109 and the Mark VII depth charge and rack. Let me know.
Dave
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: South Eastern PA
Posted by jragusa on Saturday, January 3, 2004 6:56 PM
I am just finishing the Revell 1/72 ELCO PT boat. You can see at:
http://home.comcast.net/~jragusa5/pt_190_modified_revell_kit.htm
I used Victor Chuns book "American PT Boats in WWII" as a reference and used Camouflage Design 20L. Please note my boat is not based on a real boat. From research most boats were customised by their crews so I took some license. The 40mm Boofors is from H-R products, these pieces need a lot of clean up and no instuctions come with them so you need pictures or drawings. The torpeado's are resin from the now defunct Kendall Models, should have bought more!!!
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: USA
Posted by mark956 on Saturday, January 3, 2004 8:20 PM
Good luck on your model Shawn. Looking forward in seeing some pictures of it.
mark956
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: New Zealand
Posted by nicholma on Sunday, January 4, 2004 1:14 AM
Thanks Dave for the information. I have also come across a build diary for someone making one in 20th scale (with operating guns!), you may have seen it at http:pt-boat.com included are some interesting hull and other plans and drawings (but not the depth charger). So far I have started sanding out the plank lines (what a job maybe jragusa's idea of a new deck would be easier). Its not going to be the quick build I thought but what ever is!
Kia ora, Mark "Time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas"
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 19, 2004 2:51 PM
Hey guys
just a quick update, i got all the deck sanded a job unto itself, i rebuilt the railing on front of boat with solder, have paint on order, will be mixing green.have pics need to develop.
Thanks
Shawn
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