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HMS Victory. HELP!!!

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  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
Posted by djrost_2000 on Friday, January 29, 2010 7:37 PM

I believe there is (or was) an HMS Victory discussion group on Yahoo Groups.  I think it is called HMS Victory Modelling.  I'm building the Revell mini Victory right now and one way I get good photos is by going to Google, typing in HMS Victory photos and you get hundreds of pictures of the ship from all angles as well as many model photos.  I also type in HMS Victory video and there are a few little movies out there.  I have McKay's book and I love it but still need the photos I can get from Google.

~Dave

 

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Mooresville, NC
Posted by piflo1 on Friday, January 29, 2010 7:19 AM

What I do it paint the hull with a base coat of black.  Then I do copper color.  After that has dried well, I sand it with a fine grit sandpaper to expose some of the black on each plate.  Then I do a wash of a sort of green algae with a little rusty red tinge to it.  I don't know exactly how I made the color, I just mix until it looks like algae sludge.  The picture above of the Victory is very subtle because I wanted to make this Victory "new" and not do a lot of weathering.  I may change my mind as I get more done.

  • Member since
    July 2009
Posted by Publius on Friday, January 29, 2010 7:07 AM

Anyone have a comment on ageing/painting the copper plated area of the hull? I have a CSS Alabama and a USS Kearsarge I would like to paint to match a look it would have after some time  at sea. I'm thinking of using a thin wash of red-brown over the antique copper color I have used. Would that  look like tarnish? Next I'm wondering about barnicles and seaweed. What would that have looked like as time wore on? According to a book I have on Alabama, she was loosing copper plates towards the end of her long cruise at sea and was slowed considerably by the condition of the hull below the water line. Thanks, Paul

How does this work?

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Mooresville, NC
Posted by piflo1 on Friday, January 29, 2010 5:44 AM

I currently have the Petersson book, "Rigging Period Ship Models", Hackney's "Victory, Classic Ships and how to Model Them" McKay's "The 100-Gun Ship Victory" and the McGowan book "Victory, Her Construction, Career, and Restoration" (The best of the four).  I am waiting for the Longridge book to come in the mail any day now.

Here are some updated pictures.  Two decks of guns are in place.  Bow section needs a little touch up paint from putty.

 

 

 

Bryan

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Friday, January 29, 2010 12:42 AM

Embarrassed yes, should be Longridge. I have open the box several times and considered starting up more than once I must admit. Just hasn't taken off yet..............................................

Cheers,

Julian Big Smile

 

illegal immigrants have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.....................

Italeri S-100: http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/t/112607.aspx?PageIndex=1

Isu-152: http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/t/116521.aspx?PageIndex=1

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:04 PM

Do I detect a Freudian slip there Julian  by your reference to Longyear's book.

Three years is a long time to be procrastinating about starting the Victory build, time you got on with it, I've seen the quality of your modelling, and you should have no worries.Big Smile

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:54 AM

I have Heller's 1/100th Victory in my stash (been there for about three years) and Longyear's book in my book collection. Quite frankly this is a daunting build and that is the reason I haven't started it yet. I wish you you good luck and great stamina and perseverence on this one. Keep the photos coming, they might keep your build going..............................................................

Cheers,

Julian Toast

 

illegal immigrants have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.....................

Italeri S-100: http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/t/112607.aspx?PageIndex=1

Isu-152: http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/t/116521.aspx?PageIndex=1

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:30 AM

I have to agree with George:  the Anderson book is a classic, and belongs in the library of every sailing ship modeler, but it really deals with an earlier period than the Victory.

The Milton Roth book is...shall we say...a bit controversial.  It has its admirers, but I'm not one of them.  I've spouted off about it several times over the past 20+ years, and I won't do so again here.  But here's a link to another thread that contains a reprinted review of it:   /forums/p/113095/1127114.aspx#1127114 .  The review is in the sixth post down the thread.  Some people do like the book; I'd urge anybody who's thinking about buying it to read some other reviews of it (such as those at www.drydockmodels.com and www.modelshipworld.com ). 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Thursday, January 28, 2010 5:42 AM

I'm not sure I would recommend the RC Anderson book as a specific guide to rigging Victory as his book, certainly the full edition, 'in the days of the Spritsail Topmast 1600 -1720 covers a rather earlier period of ship rigging. That is not to say tho' that it doesn't contain some very useful general information on model rigging.

i think the book is however, a must for those wishing to build the Heller Soleil Royal.

I am referring to the full edition entitled The Rigging of Ships  'in the days of the Spritsail Topmast 1600 -1720. which also includes variances in foreign rigs.

The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships by C.N. Longridge remains for me the core book to rigging Victory, and I have all the books available relating to the specific ship.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Australia
Posted by adouglas on Thursday, January 28, 2010 4:45 AM

Hi,

I completed the Victory over 12 months ago after 2 and half years of work.

Another good couple of books are:

The Rigging of Ships by R.C.Anderson

Ship Modelling Stem to Stern by Milton Roth

Both these were extremely helpful.

Good Luck

 

AndrewPirate

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:42 PM

a6m5zerosen

You mentioned starting with the cannons-I believe there are metal replacements available for the cannon barrels that are a vast improvement over the kit parts.

Not necessarily.

We took up this very topic recently in another forum thread:  /forums/t/121706.aspx .

There are plenty of aftermarket metal gun barrels (turned and cast) out there, but it would be a mistake to assume that they're superior to the ones in the kit.  Heller actually did a pretty good job in terms of their shapes.  The big problem with the kit parts is that, since each barrel is made up of two pieces, the modeler has to spend some time gluing them together and eradicating the seams.  But I'm not at all sure the aftermarket can offer a reasonably accurate set of guns in all the necessary sizes.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Denver, Colorado
Posted by a6m5zerosen on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:55 PM

You mentioned starting with the cannons-I believe there are metal replacements available for the cannon barrels that are a vast improvement over the kit parts.

"no, honey, of course that's not another new model. I've had that one for a long time..."

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Mooresville, NC
Posted by piflo1 on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 6:12 PM

That's funny.  I just got the email about 20 min ago and am now active!  I guess I just got a little impatient.   Thanks for checking.  This site is amazing.  I am already seeing a lot of post for a lot of questions I have.

 

Bryan

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 6:08 PM

Ok i checked, and found your user name, assuming your piflo1701, and says your registered, so when did you last check?

Michael D.

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 5:59 PM

I am, let me know what user name you registered under, and i'll PM one of the moderators.

 

Michael D.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Mooresville, NC
Posted by piflo1 on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 2:57 PM

Are any of you guys members of Pete Coleman's website?  Do you know how long it takes to get your profile activated?  I can't even read the first post that says "Please read before Registering".  I can't read until I register and get activated.  

Just wondering.  I am trying to be patient, but really need to do some research and this seems like the ultimate site for me.

 

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 9:01 PM

Ah patience is a virtue... your welcome, you won't be disappointed. I owe those gentlemen a ton of gratitude for helping me launch my back dated build,  please do post some pics on your progress when you finally get started.

Michael D.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Mooresville, NC
Posted by piflo1 on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:51 PM

 http://pete-coleman.com/forum/ 

Thanks Bill and Michael,  that looks like a fantastic site.  Unfortunately, I can't see anything yet.  You have to be registered to view the forum.  I registered and got a confirmation email, but it said another email will be sent when the administrator of the board activates my account.  I really hope it doesn't take too long.  I have been sitting here for the longest time waiting to get that email.  

It looks like that site will be the one for me.  Just gotta wait I guess.  Crying

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by davidson3 on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:52 AM

 

In addition to the three books listed, I would spend some serious time reading the articles on  http://pete-coleman.com/forum/  as mentioned by Michael D.  These guys have spent years building this model and there's nothing they haven't worked through.  As a number of them are based in the UK access to the ship has added to their knowledge.

They have based their construction primarily around Longridge (and McKay from memory) but there are plenty of pics to illustrate the way ahead.  And once you've introduced yourself they are more than happy to assist, in return run a blog and post some pictures of your build on the forum.

Having spent the last 12 months researching my build this is one of, if not the best, dedicated HMS VICTORY model website.

Enjoy the build and allocate about 24mths to do it justice.

Bill

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 28, 2009 9:25 PM

The McGowan/McKay book probably will tell you all you need, or want, to know about the ship herself.  Personally I'm in awe of Mr. McKay's drawings; he's a true master of a dying art form - the art of drafting by hand.  My one reservation is that his rather personalized style of showing the rigging, while beautiful to look at, doesn't offer the clarity what a modeler needs in order to rig a model.  For that, Longridge's verbal descriptions are nearly ideal.

The author of the "Classic Ships" book was a gentleman named Noel C.L. Hackney; maybe the name will help you track down a copy.  Don't expect much, though.  It was a slim little book (less than a hundred pages, if I remember right), keyed quite specifically to the Airfix kit.  (The text would be pretty hard to follow without having the Airfix part numbers in front of you.)  And the finished model, quite frankly, was nothing to get excited about.  (The author used, for instance, the awful plastic-coated thread "shroud and ratline assemblies" that were included with the kit in those days.)  As a guide for near-beginners looking to do a little more than build the kit out of the box, it wasn't bad - and undoubtedly got lots of newomers to the hobby started in the right direction.  But as an aid to building the Heller kit it wouldn't be of much use.

If you can get hold of a copy of Longridge, he'll be the best guide you can find in print.  If you've got the McGowan/McKay book, I don't think you need to bother tracking down the "Anatomy" volume.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Mooresville, NC
Posted by piflo1 on Monday, December 28, 2009 5:37 PM

John, 

Fortunately, I have #3,  Her Construction, Career and Restoration.  I received that with the ship.  

I am hoping there is a way I can come across the book I mentioned in my original post, but it seems that that will never happen.  (Unless someone has one they want to sell me!)  Smile  

My Dad in Oregon was trying to get the model for quite some time, and then finally, in August of 2008, he was able to get not just one, but two at HobbyLink.  I think they are readily available now, but he had such a hard time getting it, that he thought he should buy two.  He hasn't done models since he was a kid and doesn't have the skills anymore.  He said he will probably try to sell it on ebay or something.

Anyway, he held onto it for more than a year and shipped it to me here in NC for Christmas.  Not what I was expecting and I didn't even realize I wanted it! Big Smile

 

This is probably one of the biggest modeling projects I have ever come across.  I am scared and excited.  I think I will start with the cannons!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 28, 2009 5:29 PM

You're quite correct in your implication that, in order to do that kit justice, you need some information that goes considerably beyond the kit instructions.  Those instructions are, in fact, a mess - especially the "English translation."   That document, which apparently was written by somebody who neither understood French nor had attempted to build the model, is just about useless.  The parts of it that deal with the rigging are especially weak - better than those of the notorious Soleil Royal kit, but sadly lacking as a guide to the rigging of the ship.

There are quite a few books out there about the Victory.  Actually I wouldn't put the old "Classic Ships" series book high on the list; it's quite a small work, and really amounts to a step-by-step guide to building the old, much smaller, Airfix kit.  Not a bad little book, but not of much help to builders of the Heller kit.

Three books stand out.  You'll get some disagreement about how to rank them in terms of usefulness for this particular project, but I'll do it this way:

1.  C. Nepean Longridge, The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships.  The title notwithstanding, this is in fact a blow-by-blow account of how Dr. Longridge built his exquisite, 1/48-scale scratchbuilt model of the Victory, which is now exhibited at the Science Museum in London.  Much of the text about the construction of the model obviously won't be relevant to builders of a plastic kit.  But the book contains an excellent set of plans (drawn by George Campbell - one of the best in the business), and the chapters on the rigging are worth their weight in gold.  In addition to the diagrams, Longridge gives a verbal description of how each line leads.  If you can only get one book, this is the one I recommend. 

2.  John McKay,  Anatomy of the Ship:  The 100-Gun Ship Victory.  This is part of a series published by the Conway Maritime Press.  Most of it consists of Mr. McKay's superb drawings, which show just about every conceivable part of the ship in extreme detail.  His coverage of the rigging, on the other hand, isn't as clear as Longridge's; it consists essentially of several overal diagrams and keys.  It also suffers from some factual errors (none of them really important from the standpoint of Heller kit builders).  But the drawings can only be described as magnificent. 

3.  Alan McGowan and John McKay, H.M.S. Victory:  Her Construction, Career and Restoration.  This is a superb piece of work, detailing the ship's history - including her restoration as a museum ship (but not quite all of the work that was done to her during the most recent restoration project, just before the Trafalgar bicentennial).  It includes a huge set of drawings by the same Mr. McKay - not quite as many as the Anatomy volume, but more than enough for plastic kit purposes.  The rigging diagrams in this one are, in some respects, a little easier to follow than the ones in the Anatomy volume. 

There are lots of other books and articles about this famous ship, but I still recommend Longridge as the place to start.

Now the bad news:  all three of those books are out of print at the moment.  Used copies can be found on the web, but they aren't cheap.  In a few minutes' search the cheapest I could find were $40 for Longridge, $75 for the Anatomy volume, and $160 for the McGowan/McKay book.  I suspect a bit more searching would yield some slightly better prices, but I'm afraid these books are never going to be cheap.  If you've got easy access to a good public or academic library, maybe it can help - perhaps through the Interlibrary Loan service. 

One other excellent  - and FREE - source:  the ship's website, http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 ,  There's a great deal of useful material to be found there - including a section devised especially for modelers.  (On the bar running across the homepage near the top, click on "H.M.S. Victory," then on "Reference," then on "Model Making 1" and "Model Making 2."  There you'll find, among other things, the experts' latest conclusions about her 1805 color scheme.)

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Monday, December 28, 2009 5:01 PM

Here's an updated link for you piflo1 http://pete-coleman.com/forum/  as far as books, The Anatomy of Nelsons Ships by C Nepean Longridge, and Anatomy of the ship- The 100- Gun Ship Victory by John McKay to name a few....hope this helps.

 

Michael D.

 

  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: UK
Posted by Billyboy on Monday, December 28, 2009 4:56 PM

Hi,

 

good luck with the Victory- she is a superb vessel! I find http://www.hms-victory.com/ quite useful for general info on the vessel, but I suppose the best 'one stop' work would be the Anatomy of the Ship book- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1557504180/ref=nosim/internalistofsca

That said- I have never attempted HMS Victory in 1/100 because I simply ain't brave enough! The amount of reference material out there is huge- and because this is such an absorbing (consuming?) build all I would suggest is reading up as much as you can about the 18th century Royal Navy. I would specifically recommend 'Anatomy of Nelson's Ships' by Longridge, but anything about how these vessels were manned, sailed and how they fought you will find both useful and perhaps more importantly- utterly fascinating! I find that if you know why a ship looked like she did, modelling her easier.

good luck

Will

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Mooresville, NC
HMS Victory. HELP!!!
Posted by piflo1 on Monday, December 28, 2009 12:32 PM

Hello all,

I know there have been a few posts about this before, but I am needing some help.  I am going to start the Heller 1/100 HMS Victory.  As most of you know, this is one if the best models I personally have ever seen.  The thing that isn't amazing, is the instructions.  I know there is a book out called "Classic Ships and how to Model them: HMS Victory  ISBN: 9780850590531"  But is is no where to be found.  

Do any of you know of any other resources to aide in building this model?  I also checked this site, but it seems to be out of order.  http://www.hms-victory-build.co.uk/

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