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Doc Tilley, you responsible for this!

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  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by cassibill on Friday, January 29, 2010 12:16 PM

This discussion is making me rather curious now.  Ball State has a large architechtural college and thus at least one drafting store out on Wheeling Ave. (I think there is at least some hand drawing still.)  What I'm curious about is if the art students still have to take a manditory technical drawing and drafting course.  At least I think it was manditory when my sister got her art degree.  There was a running joke about "at least you can eat".  I'll have to remember to ask the art major in my Latin class.

cdw My life flashes before my eyes and it mostly my life flashing before my eyes!!!Big Smile The 1/144 scale census and message board: http://144scalelist.freewebpage.org/index.html

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, January 29, 2010 11:27 AM

Finding such equipment here in Greenville used to be easy.  The bookstores around the university used to stock a good variety of drafting supplies to sell to students, and we have a good drafting supply store, McGee Reprographics, that could be relied upon for everything else I needed (and made my negatives, at 50% of the size of the original drawings).  Nowadays no department in the university teaches traditional drafting, so the bookstores don't carry drafting supplies.  And neither does McGee Reprographics, because all the architects and engineers use CAD.  (I have nothing against CAD; it's a wonderful system, and undoubtedly has been responsible for saving millions of dollars - and who knows how many lives, in that it makes mistakes less likely.  But I do mourn the near-death of traditional drafting, which really deserves to be considered an art form.)

Greensboro is a long way from Greenville!  The last time I did a set of drawings I ordered some fresh pen points from Dick Blick, a big mail-order art supply firm that carries some drafting supplies.  I also tried out some of those new-fangled fiber-tipped drafting pens.  In many ways I really like them; the good ones make nice, solid lines, and they require virtually no maintenance.  (Even if you leave the cap off for a week, the pen doesn't require maintenance.  It just requires replacement.)  But the really fine ones do get mushed a bit after a while, so the lines get wider.  There's just no substitute for the good, old-fashioned rapidograph.  And to my notion there's no substitute for old-fashioned, fine-toothed drafting vellum.  I've tried mylar, but it and just don't get along as well.

Much of this discussion is, for me personally, strictly academic.  The Coast Guard's money for such projects has dried up; no more drawings for me in the foreseeable future.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2009
Posted by jameyt on Friday, January 29, 2010 10:34 AM

hey doc tilly,

  as a retired draftsman , i get my supplies from a store in greensboro nc called southern photo inc. they are located 2 1639spring st. greensboro nc. ph # 1-800-334-0842 . they still have a good selection of supplies ,one of the best stores i know of & since it is an engineering supply house. fwiw jameyt

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:06 PM

Great work on digging up this info.. and BZ to Dr Tilley, those are some amazing "lines". My hat's off to you Sir!

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Sunday, January 24, 2010 5:16 PM

I have found tips for my rapidograph pens from, believe it or not OFFICE MAX. I also still have a spare point for every pen I own.The idea of being without them is horrible.I also have a very ,very old set of draftsmens inking points! I just manage to take care of my good stuff.I got my first FULL set of rapidograph sets from my wife when I graduated from College(thanks to the NAVY).You should see a sales person when I try to get more inking pointsI The hardest thing for me to get is the ink! You should try the above named source or you can do what I did in a pinch.I used my set of ESTERBROOK PENS.I have found many sources for them.They aren,t cheap either!You can still get ALL their tips including the CALLIGRAPHY tips. I hope this helps you, and your drawings helped me!     tankerbuilder

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Sunday, January 24, 2010 5:03 PM

Well,PROFF you did it again.I will have you you know that I have on my bench A 1/48 scale "CAPE CLASS" cutter.I built one as a going away present  from the staff of CLEAN BAY/CONCORD to a retiring operations director who,s first command had been one of them. I look forward to using your drawings and thank you!    tankerbuilder

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, January 24, 2010 3:55 PM

jtilley
(Some of the drafting tools and materials I used on those drawings are now - like me - just about obsolete.  When I go into a drafting supply store and ask for Rotring Rapidograph points, the clerks look at me like I'm some sort of relic from a bygone age.)

Ah, yes, the last (non-online specialty) place I saw Rotring, it wasa in packs of assembled pens--nice, specialty fibre-tipped pens in precision widths, but a 'felt tip' none the less <sigh>.

I've noticed that the pen plotter people often have Rapidograph penpoints, often in "uh oh, we got pen tips not plotter tips" too.  But, getting the correct item is often a bit of a dice roll.  It's also very difficult to hand draw with plotter points, since the line speed is so much different.  (Not that I miss the joys of keeping technical pen plotter carosels cleaned and working at all . . . )

Yet, try to explain why computer programs still refer to pens by number and by point size.

Millimeter-sized graphite "leads" supplanted lead-holders and pointers on desk tops; looks like cad will make technical pens equally obscure, except in the highest-end art stores.

Which now causes me to reflect on the passing of "drafting supply store" too.  We had three and two bookstores, too.  Now, there's a tiny section in Office Max, and a teenier one in Hobby Lobby.

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Bangor, Maine
Posted by alross2 on Sunday, January 24, 2010 3:45 PM

Nice stuff, John.  Know what you ean about the pen tips.  I figure I use one tip per mylar sheet and they are getting more expensive than ever.  I'm working on a set of plans for TS STATE OF MAINE in 1/96 right now and asked Suzi to get me three 000 tips for the project.  She kinda choked on the bill (she ordererd six...) and they sent six pens rather than six points.  Ah well,...

Al Ross

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, January 24, 2010 12:50 AM

This is starting to get downright embarrassing.  I have to confess that, when I called up the first of those drawings (via the Coast Guard website) on my computer, and it started appearing, line by line, at a considerably bigger size than the original, my reaction was one of horror.  I drew those things twice as big as the intended published size. (That's an old trick that draftsmen have been using for generations; shrinking a drawing almost invariably makes it look better.)  Now the whole world can call them up in a format that magnifies every one of the hundreds of glitches that now, to me at least, stick out like sore thumbs!

I agree that a Squadron-style book on the Treasury-class cutters would be a great idea.  In fact I'll go further:  I think they'd be an appropriate subject for a book in the Conway "Anatomy of the Ship" series.  For the present, at least, such a project is far beyond my capacity.  But retirement is just a few years down the road; maybe I can contribute something along those lines eventually. 

I did three drawings of the Treasury class.  They were surprisingly big challenges.  The Coast Guard and its predecessor organizations are remakably inconsistent in their record-keeping habits.  Sometimes a query about a particular ship yields a big, fat folder of photos and a super-detailed set of plans; other times there's practically nothing.  When we started digging for stuff about the Treasury class, Bob Schiena found an excellent set of photos of the Taney, taken just after she was launched; that's why we picked her, in her "as-built" configuration, as the subject for the drawing.  (There was also a fascinating stack of photos of the Bibb under construction.)  But when Bob went to the National Archives looking for plans he was surprised to discover that, though there was a good, detailed plan of the maindeck, the outboard profile was missing.  I had to work from several other sources:  the photos, some extremely crude but accurately-measured drawings of the class in later (1950s and 60s) configurations, and the deck plan.  (I also turned up one other minor but useful document.   My old friend the late William Wilkinson, former director of the Mariners' Museum, was a Coast Guard enthusiast of many years' standing.  When I asked him if he had anything in his collection about the Treasury class cutter, he turned up some notes he'd taken out of some official document many years earlier.  It included, of all things, the exact heights above the waterline of all the lights in the ship.  That was a big help in compensating for the effect of perspective in the photos.)  

I remember the day I took my finished drawing of the Taney up to CG Headquarters in Washington, showed it to the captain in charge of the Public Affairs section (which oversees the Historian's Office) and told him, "I can't say for sure this is exactly right, because there apparently is no official outboard profile of the Taney as built."  The captain pointed at the drawing I'd just handed him and said, "There is now."  That made me feel pretty good.

Only temporarily, though.  Just a year or so ago I started following a thread on another web forum (modelshipworld.com) about a guy who was working on a large-scale RC model of a Treasury-class cutter.  He and a friend of his had started researching the subject from a different direction (I'm not exactly sure where), and had found a print of the original outboard profile.  Oh, well....

A year or so after the Taney drawing was done, Bob Browning asked me to do a set that would represent the Coast Guard's role in amphibious warfare - including the Duane as an amphibious force flagship.  The Historian's Office could find no measured drawings whatsoever of any of the Treasury-class ships in that configuration.  Bob was able to track down about six photos, and I found a couple more in books.  (One of the most useful showed the ship tied up to a pier somewhere in North Africa just prior to the invasion of Southern France, with the officers and crew standing on the pier.  They were in nice, straight, equally-spaced lines, right in front of the ship, with the camera centered perfectly on the formation.  Another big help in sorting out the perspective.

Then there was the case of the FS 550, a Coast Guard-manned Army "freight supply ship."  Bob Browning found a terrifically detailed set of drawings of her on microfilm in (if I'm remembering correctly) the archives of the U.S. Maritime Commission.  The detail sheets included the gear for stowing a road grader on the maindeck - which is why the drawing has a road grader on it.  (Those "FS boats" were rather interesting.  Two of them became famous - or infamous - for very different reasons.  One was heavily modified after the war and became the U.S.S. Pueblo.  The other - I'm not sure what her number was - played the part of the U.S.S. Reluctant  in the great movie "Mister Roberts."  In that capacity she became, rather ironically, something of a symbol for the unsung, behind-the-lines sailors of the U.S.N. in the Pacific.  In fact the Navy didn't operate any FS boats during World War II.  All of them were administered by the Army, most being manned by the Coast Guard.) 

Last night, in an effort to conquer a mild attack of insomnia, I dug out some stuff from a cabinet and compared it with the drawings on the CG website.  I discovered that at least seven of the drawings I made way back when aren't there (or weren't as of last night).  The most significant probably was a third version of the Treasury class:  The Spencer in (as I reconstructed it as best I could - based entirely on photos) her 1943 configuration, as an Atlantic convoy escort.  The other missing ones:  the Icarus (165-foot B-type cutter, in 1942 configuration), Escanaba (165-foot A-type cutter), Evergreen (180-foot buoy tender, in 1943 configuration), Storis (230-foot tender, in 1943 configuration), Northland (in WWII configuration - with a JF-2 Duck aircaraft, crane, and radar replacing the original sail rig), and Albuquerque (Coast Guard-manned Navy patrol frigate).  I think at least one other one may be missing; the above list has seven ships in it, and I think they were all originally published in sets of four.  I don't know the reason for the omissions; maybe the folks in D.C. thought they'd used up enough space on the website already, or maybe they couldn't lay hands on the originals.  I've sent an e-mail to the Historian's Office. 

As is probably obvious by now, this is one of my favorite subjects.  I haven't actually worked on any project involving CG vessels for several years.  (Some of the drafting tools and materials I used on those drawings are now - like me - just about obsolete.  When I go into a drafting supply store and ask for Rotring Rapidograph points, the clerks look at me like I'm some sort of relic from a bygone age.)  I don't know if I'll ever get the chance to draw any more of them or not.  But I'm certainly more than willing to give it a shot.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2006
Posted by thunder1 on Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:45 AM

A day late and a dollar short! Last Sunday I dug up my Dr. Tilley "collector sets" from my file cabinet and planned to scan a few for the FSM site. Mr. Tilley is well known on the site but few people are familiar with his fine renderings. I figured it was time to bring his good work to light. Well someone has beat me to the punch and perhaps just as well, I'm not really familiar with scanning and posting stuff to this web site. Anyway, I have two neat Tilley items: his Coast Guard aircraft collection, (all in constant scale) and his color version Coast Guard ships and boats of WWII, (also in constant scale). These two items are on a large poster sheet, it would be impossible to scan, one would have to take a photo and download them. Anyway I keep hoping the good professor would pen a Squadron  "profile" book on my favorite cutter, the Secretary class. Since these vessels served 50 years spanning pre war, WWII, Vietnam and everywhere in between, I feel that it would appeal to a good amount of model builders and collectors. And with color plates(artist renderings) depicting the ships in a variety of roles, it would be a welcome change from the  usual overdone gray vessels and their cousins. Oh well, one can only hope....Again, Professor Tilley is to be commended for his wit, wisdom, and fine art work. Semper Paratus!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Friday, January 22, 2010 10:07 PM

Wow, great stuff. Nice work, Doc!

I took a bunch of pictures of the Fir this summer, it's a subject I'd like to build. Now I have access to a good drawing.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, January 22, 2010 9:58 PM

Many thanks for the compliments.  This is a series of drawings I did on commission from the CG Historian's Office, under the direction of two fine gents, Bob Scheina and his successor Bob Browning, over a long period beginning in 1989.  (The date of each individual ship drawing is alongside my name, at the aft end of the keel.)  The amount of effort required varied tremendously.  In some cases the CG was able to furnish excellent, highly detailed plans; I didn't have to do much beyond tracing.  In other cases (one that sticks in my memory is the lighthouse tender Goldenrod), the only records consisted of extremely vague plans and a couple of photographs. 

Then there was the modern Eagle, which I came to think of as the beautiful bark from hell.  I've noted elsewhere in this Forum the messy problem with Eagle plans.  Bob Browning had prints of some of the original drawings of the Horst Wessel in his office; those cleared up lots of questions.  But I really felt obligated to take a careful look at the ship herself.  Catching up with her turned out to be quite an exercise.  First I was going to meet her at Yorktown, then in D.C., then - oh, I don't know where.  I finally got the "definitive" word that she was going to be in Baltimore for one weekend in the summer of 1994.  My wife and I drove up to Baltimore (six-hour drive) on Saturday, got there early in the evening, established that the Eagle was indeed tied up to a pier in the Inner Harbor, and happily checked into a motel in the northern part of town (the only one where I'd been able to get a reservation on short notice).  The next morning (Sunday) I told my wife, "I'm just nervous about this.  I think I'd better take the camera and get down to the ship as early as I can." She told me to go ahead, and to pick her up later.  I got to the head of the Eagle's gangway at about 7:15 a.m.  The captain gave me a nice welcome and said, "well, we're leaving for Washington at 8:00.  Want to sail with us?"  What an invitation!  But my car was parked in a garage across the street - and my wife was in a motel on the other side of town.  I had to content myself with taking about a hundred 35mm pictures in 45 minutes - along with some nice shots of the Eagle motoring down the Baltimore Harbor channel, with her headsails and staysails set.  I think the resulting drawing depicts her accurately as she appeared in 1994 - but I'm sure she looks different now in some way or other.

The initial idea of the project was that the Historian's Office would distribute prints of the drawings to various places in the Coast Guard, and then make them available (free of charge) to anybody who asked for them.  I don't know how many, if any, of the sets Bob Browning and his staff still have in stock.  They only got posted on the web a few days ago.

Bob tells me that the most popular ones, by far, are the sheets of lighthouses.  In fact, he says that at least half the queries his office gets from the public have to do with lighthouses.  We think the explanation for their popularity may be phallic.

Anyhow, it was a most interesting project - and it paid for the education my youngest stepkid didn't get in a private school.  (If I ever get my hands on that high school history teacher - whose sole contribution to Wendy's education was to make her hate history....)  The drawings have turned up in a number of books and other places; I know of one dealer who's selling copies for something like $14.75 apiece - and quite a few years ago a certain magazine (initials S.C.) published some of them with the clear implication that it had somehow been involved with their creation.  On another occasion I got a letter from a French author, telling me he'd "never forget" the help I'd given him with his book.  I'd never heard of him or the book  (though he was kind enough to send me a copy); he'd sent a query to the C.G. Historian's Office, and had been sent a set of the drawings in reponse. 

Legally, the only person on the planet who can't sell them is me - since I've already been paid for them (with the taxpayers' money).  They're in the public domain; anybody can reproduce them, sell them, or do anything else with them. 

There are quite a few vessels of the Coast Guard and its predecessor institutions that aren't represented in the series.  Bob Scheina, Bob Browning, and I have talked at various times about a set of Life-Saving Service surfboats, a set of lightships, a set of tugs, and a number of other ideas - as well as the new patrol boats, icebreakers, and buoy tenders that have been commissioned since the last set I drew.  Unfortunately the money for such things in the Coast Guard budget has dried up.  (For some strange reason, the people in charge of said budget seem to have the notion that things like saving lives, intercepting drug shipments, and preventing terrorist attacks ought to get higher priorities than hiring aging university professors to draw pictures.)  But every time I talk to Bob Browning I drop a none-too-subtle hint that whenever he's got the money, I've got the ink.

If any model builders can find some constructive use for these things, nobody will be happier than I will.  There are lots of attractive and/or interesting potential subjects for models there.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

fox
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Narvon, Pa.
Posted by fox on Friday, January 22, 2010 3:53 PM

Outstanding work. Dr. Tilley, you are amazing. Thank you for your hard work. Bow DownBow Down EdGrune, thank you for posting the site.

JimCaptain

 Main WIP: 

   On the Bench: Artesania Latina  (aka) Artists in the Latrine 1/75 Bluenose II

I keep hitting "escape", but I'm still here.

  • Member since
    May 2007
  • From: Atlanta, Georgia
Posted by RTimmer on Friday, January 22, 2010 3:10 PM

In a word - "Awesome"!  Thanks for sharing.

Cheers, Rick

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by cassibill on Friday, January 22, 2010 2:16 PM

Thank you! Very nice stuff.  Well now I have to dig out a new ream of paper so I can make hard copies for my files.  I'd been digging around on their website but hadn't found these yet.  Their coloring books are cute too.  I might print one for my little cousin.  She likes to see what I'm buildings and "helps" on occassion.

cdw My life flashes before my eyes and it mostly my life flashing before my eyes!!!Big Smile The 1/144 scale census and message board: http://144scalelist.freewebpage.org/index.html

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Doc Tilley, you responsible for this!
Posted by EdGrune on Friday, January 22, 2010 1:25 PM

the Coast Guard Historian's website has plans for lighthouses, cutters & craft. 

 http://www.uscg.mil/history/plans/CoastGuardPlansIndex.asp

 I see your name on some of the entries.  Your work?  Very nice

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