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Santa Maria kits

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MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Sunday, March 28, 2010 2:31 AM

That's very good and shows that Aoshima hasn't significantly changed the original kit except for the provision of vac-form sails - not, in my view, a step forward. You can see the moulded deadeye/lanyard assemblies quite clearly.  The excellent boxtop illustration is also unchanged.

My newly acquired kit doesn't include the rigging booklet unfortunately, though I think I have a copy in another kit.

I wonder if the plastic is similar to the stuff Imai used.

 

Michael

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  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Saturday, March 27, 2010 1:59 PM
MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Friday, March 26, 2010 6:17 PM

!

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Friday, March 26, 2010 11:57 AM

I'ts Aoshima's Santa Maria 1:60 or from IMAI moulds made Aoshima's Santa Maria 1:60.

Some months ago the kit was on German's e'bay, asking price was 99,99 EUR.

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Friday, March 26, 2010 7:21 AM

MJH

I have to admit that if there's one thing I don't like about Imai's ship kits it's the instruction sheets.  The use of photographs of the parts doesn't work, especially with the poor reproduction of the era.  Unlike a line drawing it's difficult to make out detail.

What puzzles me sometimes is how a company that's best known for toy-like models of the Thunderbirds series and a range of Japanese anime models with such 'action' features as spring-loaded missile launchers, an enormous range of Harley Davison motorcycles and a quirky range of car kits including a London Taxi, should also be responsible for the best plastic ship models ever!

I can only assume they had someone there who really cared.

Michael

The only Aosima Santa Maria that I can locate is a 1/350 scale. Is that the one you are talking about?

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Friday, March 26, 2010 6:05 AM

I have to admit that if there's one thing I don't like about Imai's ship kits it's the instruction sheets.  The use of photographs of the parts doesn't work, especially with the poor reproduction of the era.  Unlike a line drawing it's difficult to make out detail.

What puzzles me sometimes is how a company that's best known for toy-like models of the Thunderbirds series and a range of Japanese anime models with such 'action' features as spring-loaded missile launchers, an enormous range of Harley Davison motorcycles and a quirky range of car kits including a London Taxi, should also be responsible for the best plastic ship models ever!

I can only assume they had someone there who really cared.

Michael

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Thursday, March 25, 2010 3:06 PM

I have to agree with MJH the best kit is the Imai kit also done by Ertl and now by Aosima. Its a larger scale well detailed. I've built three of them also built the Revell and the Heller kits. The Heller mold are a little ragged and a lot of what I call dips in the plastic on the hull that have to be filled in. The Revell kit you have to get rid of the molded rope details on the deck change the gun ports to round instead of square lot of little problems.

The orginal Imai kits the plastc is unbelieveable never found  another company that had that kind of plastic.Kit also comes with cloth sails. The guns are correct for the period. Just all around best Santa Maria kit ever.

Rod

MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:01 AM

Just getting back to the subject for a moment, I recently acquired an untouched Imai Santa Maria kit (it cost me about $US50).  The scale is 1:60 making the hull 17” long and about 5.5” across the beam moulded in a light tan colour.  There’s also a darker brown sprue carrying blocks, deadeyes and an assortment of other minor components.  The general shape is similar to the depiction on the Revell box top that I saw last weekend – even to the shields hung off the forecastle – and I wonder which came first….  I understand there are no accurate records of what the Santa Maria actually looked like so I expect Imai’s guess is as good as any other.

The model has a very pronounced woodgrain effect that might need sanding down a little.  The hull halves are not symmetrical as you’d normally find but have quite different planking breaks and include scarf joints on the keel.  The rope bindings (I forget the technical term) at regular intervals around the masts and yards are beautifully represented.  All the parts are quite heavy and solidly moulded and will make an extremely strong structure.  Imai were also very careful about the location of ejection pin locations and though some of these appear on ‘woodgrain’ surfaces they’re hidden from direct view after assembly.

For beginners the kit offers moulded deadeye/lanyard assemblies that are a reasonable compromise though, on close examination, the inner sides of the lanyards have a flattish appearance.  A nice touch is that gratings and diamond-paned windows are fully perforated.

The kit includes cloth sails in a fairly coarse material printed with vertical lines and with the familiar crosses, though the latter might have to be coloured red; I wonder if they really were coloured on the original ship?  Also included are a selection of silk-like flags and banners, screen-printed in full colour and rigging thread in black and brown.

Altogether an excellent kit and, in my opinion, the best SM available.  I’m delighted to add it to my Imai sailing ship collection that now includes the great Cutty Sark and the beautiful Chebec.  The Catalan Ship still evades me but perhaps one day….

Michael

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, February 12, 2010 12:22 PM

I haven't built the Imai kit, but on the basis of that firm's other products, and photos that I've seen, I'll second MJH's motion.  Unless I'm mistaken, Imai made at least two versions of the Santa Maria, the other one being on quite a small scale - but remarkably well done for its size.

The Imai sailing ship kits were in general absolutely first-rate products.  The hobby suffered a major loss when the company went out of business.  Some of its kits are now available under the Academy and Aoshima labels, but only a small portion of the total line - and generally at astronomical prices.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Friday, February 12, 2010 5:47 AM

If quality of moulding is a criteria then I'd opt for neither.  Watch eBay, be very patient and try to snatch the old Imai kit - much bigger (about 1:50?) and fantastic moulding.

 

Michael

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, February 12, 2010 2:30 AM

A good place for students of this period in the history of shipbuilding to start is Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons:  The Sailing Ship 1000-1650, edited by Richard W. Unger.  It's a volume in the series Conway's History of the Ship, and is an excellent introduction to what is known - and not known - about European ships of the era.

I can't answer all of Publius's questions, but I can pass on some information about the various Revell kits.  (My source, as usual, is Dr. Thomas Graham's fascinating book, Remembering Revell Model Kits.  I believe somebody published a similar book about Heller, but I've never seen it; I have the impression that it only got limited distribution - and virtually none outside Continental Europe.)

Revell's original Santa Maria was first released in 1957.  It's been reissued many times.  So far as I can tell it's always maintained its original name.  (Heller did issue at least one other kit, under the name "Conquistador,"  based on its Santa Maria kit - but I don't think Revell did.  I could be mistaken about that, though.  Dr. Graham's coverage stops in 1979, and Revell has done quite a few odd things since then.)  Our knowledge (or lack of knowledge) of Columbus's ships is such that it's hard to pin down exactly what scale the kit is on.  But if it's 1/90, those beautifully-rendered crew figures must represent midgets. 

According to Dr. Graham, this was the third sailing ship Revell produced.  (The first two were the U.S.S. Constitution and H.M.S. Bounty, released in 1956.  The Santa Maria and the Flying Cloud appeared the next year.)  The lack of planking detail inside the bulwarks is fairly typical of kits from that era.  They were designed in such a way that most of the detail work was done on one half of the mold.  I suspect the "seams" between the "planks" are indeed too wide, but there's room for debate there.  We don't know much about Spanish practice in 1492, but in later years it was routine practice in wooden ship construction to bevel the edges of hull and deck planks in order to produce a relatively wide grove between them on the exterior surface.  The caulker would then do his job of pounding caulk into the seam; the result kept water out more effectively than wood-to-wood joinery would.  But if memory serves (as it frequently doesn't these days), the Revell designers probably overdid the effect a bit.

One thing that baffles me about that kit is the way the flags are represented.  Some excellent draftsman apparently spent a great deal of time drawing them as representations of flags rippling in the wind, with the "ripples" drawn in perspective.  As drawings they're remarkable - each is designed to be folded over in the middle, and if the modeler does that carefully the "ripples" will line up perfectly.  But why fasten a two-dimensional flag, drawn in perspective, to a three-dimensional model?  Viewed from any angle but the right one, those things look utterly ridiculous.  Life would have been far easier for the artist if he'd drawn the flags "flattened out" - and any model builder who's capable of dressing himself surely can put genuine, three-dimensional ripples in a flag in a few seconds.  That tradition of "rippled" flags was a hallmark of Revell ship kits for many years.

Two of Revell's last sailing ship kits were the Golden Hind, originally released in 1965, and the Mayflower, originally released in 1966.  They are completely different kits; I believe the only parts they share are some rigging blocks (which were recycled from the old Cutty Sark kit).  The Golden Hind and Mayflower are, in my opinion, two of the best kits Revell ever made.  Both are reconstructions; the documentation about the two ships themselves is almost non-existent.  The Golden Hind kit appears to be based on a set of reconstructed plans by a German author named Rolff Hoelker (I may have misspelled him) back in the 1930s or 1940s.  The Mayflower kit is in fact a scale model of the full-sized replica Mayflower II.  The latter was designed in the 1950s by William Baker, Professor of Naval Architecture at MIT. 

Both Hoelker and Baker quite obviously made extensive use of a set of documents called the Matthew Baker Manuscript, which is in the library of Cambridge University.  It dates from the reign of Elizabeth I, and the drawings in it are generally regarded as the oldest surviving plans of English ships.  Virtually every other author and model builder trying to reconstruct a ship of that period has relied on the Matthew Baker drawings.

William Baker concluded, on the basis of the very scanty written evidence, that the original Mayflower was a  pretty old ship when she sailed for America in 1620 - old enough for the Matthew Baker drawings to be applicable.  In recent decades other researchers have come up with other interpretations of what both the Mayflower and the Golden Hind may have looked like - but the bottom line is that nobody knows for sure.  My opinion is that the Revell reconstructions still hold up pretty well, and both kits have the potential to be turned into excellent models. 

Revell, like Heller, is notorious for getting the most possible use out of its molds - and letting history take a back seat to merchandising.  According to the list of kits in the appendix to Dr. Graham's book, the Golden Hind kit got reissued under the names "Spanish Galleon" (1974 and 1978) and "Pirate Ghost Ship" (1978).  Revell also had some sort of relationship with Heller for a while; the Revell Golden Hind seems to have appeared under the label "Corsair," or something similar, in a Heller box.  The real Golden Hind was no more a Spanish galleon than the U.S.S. Kidd was a Japanese battleship.  (To begin with, the word "galleon" by definition refers to a big warship.  The Golden Hind was a tiny vessel.  And though our knowledge of Spanish shipbuilding in the sixteenth century is extremely sketchy, the hull form of that kit is quite distinctly English.)  The "Pirate Ghost Ship" was molded in some sort of green plastic that glowed in the dark.  Great. 

The Mayflower kit, with a few parts changed or added, was reissued in 1977 under the name "Elizabethan Man-O-War."  That label is easier to swallow; it's possible that a ship that looked like that did exist during the reign of Elizabeth I.  But anybody who's familiar with the subject can see at a glance that it's a model of the Mayflower II.

I've often wondered what the skilled artisans who did the actual design work on the original kits thought when they saw their work being marketed in such ways.  It's also occurred to me that in almost any other field of enterprise, such stunts as those pulled by Heller and Revell would be regarded as deceptive marketing and subject to lawsuits.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2009
Posted by Publius on Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:28 PM

I pulled out my recent Santa Maria by Revell kit. Box says 1/90 scale. The main deck was pretty warped and I carefully bent it back the other way to fit it into the hull with paper clips along the keel and a rubber band at the back. First thing I noticed is a couple of tabs that stick out above the deck to allign it. They will be under the foredeck or aft deck after the decks are in place. The main deck has no scuppers on it. Looks like one big wave would sink the ship. There is some nice inside detail on the hull halves, but the planking isn't seen and the outside plank seams are pretty large. Overall the look is good. Good luck, Paul

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  • Member since
    July 2009
Posted by Publius on Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:07 PM

Arrrrrg. Looking at the Drake kit, it's the same damn hull again!!!!! Is any one of them correct? Maybe they will do better if someone models the Mary Rose. It should tell us something. Thanks, Paul

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  • Member since
    July 2009
Posted by Publius on Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:04 PM

Correction here, the Revell Spanish Galleon is a Mayflower kit with very minor changes in the hull and sails. These were both circa late 1500s. Correct? Could they have come from shipyards close to each other? I don't think so. Looks like the outside bracing seen on Revels Santa Maria is missing 80-100 years later. Did they make the inside ribs heavier? Who knows? The ship of Sir Frances Drake lasted nearly 100 years, until 1662, according to the Revell poop sheet. Must have been rebuilt a lot? Thanks, Paul

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  • Member since
    July 2009
Posted by Publius on Thursday, February 11, 2010 2:48 PM

     Dr. T, Thanks again for more interesting stuff on the kits and their ships. This leaves me wondering what types of differences could exhist between ships of this particular era , circa 1500? Are we really so in the dark about the basic construction used to create hulls, cabins and rigging? To make a bigger forecastle did they just extend the ribs up higher and plank it in or did it sit atop a basic hull design that was "kitbashed" as per the local shipyard that used whatever materials were most available? Further I wonder what we know about the existance of shipyards in this time. How many were there in Portugal, Spain or England and where were they? Were the Greeks building ships with square sales and short hulls of the same materials? Was glass a luxury item reserved only for state warships/explorers? And I wonder about the outside riblike things that I've seen on the outside of the Imai(?) galleon kit and elstwhere? Is that just outside bracing? From what I've read about ancient galleys, stiffness on the fore and aft axis was a problem sometimes solved with rope braces. As the ships got larger were the shipwrights concerned about leaks arising from designs not strong enough for their bulk? There is an enormous replica of an early (circa 1500) Portugese war/trade ship to Malacca at Malacca today. (Google image search) I wonder if they tried to make it using archeological data??? The stern castle looks like a sky scraper!! Lastly I'm wondering how these early ships were painted/ preserved above and below. Was the hull just slathered with pitch? What did they have in those days to dilute it? Time to dig out my Revell galleon kit. (Santa Maria kit with Conquistador looking guys on board. Hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahah. Thanks, Paul

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:33 PM

I haven't built the Heller one, but I built the Revell kit when it was new (and I was six years old, in 1957).  I built it several times later, though not at all recently.  It certainly represented the state of the art in 1957.  Quite a bit of research has been done on the subject of Columbus's ships since then, and the most recent reconstructions have looked quite a bit different than the one on which Revell based its kit.  But the truth is that so little is known for certain about fifteenth-century naval architecture that nobody can say for sure that the Revell interpretation is wrong.

The Heller Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria came out, if I remember correctly, in the late sixties or early seventies.  I think the Santa Maria is based on the same set of plans that Revell used - though I'm not sure of that.  The Nina and Pinta use the same basic hull parts.  I have the impression that there's not a lot to choose between the Revell and Heller Santa Marias.  Both are more than slightly crude by the standards of 2010, but either could be the basis for a nice model.

I have to say, respectfully, that I can't agree with Mr. Stauffer's overall assessment of Heller's sailing ships.  Like any other company, Heller has evolved over the course of its existence; generally speaking its kits have gotten better.  Its line of sailing ships started out (in the mid-sixties, I think) as a small collection of reissues of kits from other manufacturers (the Pyro Harriet Lane and Aurora Cutty Sark, for example) with fictitious French names attached to them.  I think the three Columbus ships came a little later.  In the late sixties (or maybe a little earlier), Heller started concentrating on ornately-decorated warships, allegedly from the sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth centuries.  (Some were marketed in the U.S. by a company called Minicraft.  That was my first personal acquaintance with Heller.)  The best of them weren't bad.  But the company also developed the habit of recycling hulls and other parts to make allegedly different kits - some of which turned out to look downright bizarre.  (One called "Le Sirene," for instance, featured a great mass of totally nonsensical "carvings" attached to the stern of a hull that had been used in another kit.  Whether the resulting mess would have floated if enlarged to full size is highly questionable.  And the Santa Maria's hull got reissued at least once with a ridiculous, malproportioned "sterncastle"  fastened to it.  The hull that had been designed for the Nina and Pinta also got recycled.)

It seems that the Heller design department was staffed in those days by superbly talented artisans who, unfortunately, didn't know much about ships.  I vividly remember one case in particular.  Heller had just released a kit called "Drakkar Oseberg," which was advertised as a scale model of a Viking ship.  (The Oseberg Ship, named after the Norwegian farm on which it was discovered, is one of the two major surviving Viking ship finds.)  I was an undergraduate student at the time; I scraped together the money to buy the kit and drove over a hundred miles to a hobby shop that had one.  When I got the thing home, opened the box, and compared the contents to some photos of the real thing, it became clear that the designers had only the foggiest notion of what the Oseberg Ship looked like.  The bow and stern were about 50% taller than they should have been relative to the rest of the hull, and the carved work on them bore no resemblance to the real thing.  Things got worse:  Heller reused the hull from that kit, which was bad enough in the first place, as a basis for at least one other...object...that looked even more ridiculous.

As time went by, the Heller sailing ships generally got better.  The two eigthteenth-century ships of the line, the Superbe and Glorieux (I hope I have the names right), are generally shaped accurately.  (But the "wood grain" detail engraved on their hulls suggests that each of them was hacked from a single gigantic tree, and their decks are perfectly flat.  It took Heller a long time to discover that ships are made out of boards, and that deck camber is a basic feature of sailing ship design.)  I think Heller's rendition of the French galley La Reale is a masterpiece.  And the Heller 1/100 H.M.S. Victory has some significant problems (starting with the lack of any means to fasten its yards to its masts), but I share the widely-held view that it's one of the best plastic sailing ship kits ever.  The Heller twentieth-century steel sailing ships (Pamir, Passat, Preussen, and Gorch Fock) are also quite nice.  

The Soleil Royal must be one of the most controversial plastic ship kits ever released.  There's no point in getting into another argument about it here; it's been dissected thoroughly by numerous fans and critics elsewhere in this Forum.  (If anybody's  interested, here's a place to start:  /forums/p/68138/952706.aspx?PageIndex=2 .  That thread is still open - and a good place to discuss the subject.)  I am among those who heartily dislike the kit, but there are those who think it's great. 

In another Forum thread (which I can't find now) a gentleman from Belgium passed on a list of sailing ships that Heller was planning to produce on 1/100 scale after the Victory.  It was a mouth-watering list; I don't remember all the names on it, but they included H.M.S. Prince (of 1670), the Sovereign of the Seas,  the Henri Grace a Dieu, and the Mary Rose.  In view of the way the company's products had been improving over the previous few years, it's safe to guess that those kits would have been superb.  They might have revolutionized the hobby (and relegated the Soleil Royal kit to about the status that the Lindberg "Blue Devil" destroyer has among warship modelers).  But the Victory turned out to be Heller's last hurrah in the sailing ship field.  At this point I'm not quite sure whether Heller is still in business or not.  The word a couple of years ago was that the company (which by then had merged with Airfix) had gone bankrupt; Airfix made a big, well-publicized comeback, but it looked as though Heller was dead.  Then, last year, dealers like Squadron started advertising Heller kits again. 

I haven't seen an explanation of what's going on there.  If the company is still functioning and decides to start doing sailing ships again, I'll certainly welcome them - especially if the upward trajectory in quality continues.  But so far the only Heller ships I've seen advertised are the old ones from the sixties and seventies  (sometimes with new box art).  To anybody thinking about buying any of them, my suggestion is:  choose carefully - and, if possible, take a look inside the box, and read some web reviews, before you part with your hard-earned cash.  You may be buying a first-rate kit, or you may be buying an extravagantly-priced piece of junk.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Thursday, February 11, 2010 12:00 PM

I have built neither kit, but have built a number of Revell and Heller sailing ship kits.  The Revell are good, but unlike some of their kits in other genre, Heller sailing ship kits are top notch.  I am planning to build Hellers Nina myself after finishing their Soleil Royale.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    April 2007
Posted by modelbob on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 6:58 PM

I have built both and both about the same in quality. I prefer the Heller kit because it ts a little larger and easier to work on. I replaced the masts and yards with wood.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Derry, New Hampshire, USA
Santa Maria kits
Posted by rcboater on Tuesday, February 9, 2010 6:37 PM

I see that there are two Santa Maria kits on the market:

- The Revell 1/96 scale kit

- The Heller 1/75 scale kit.

Anyone have any feedback on the merits of the two kits?  Given that we're talking about 15th century ships,  I'm not really going to be super-critical about accuracy.  I'd give a slight preference to quality of moldings and fit over accuracy.....

 

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www.marinemodelers.org

 

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