...what were they thinking?

   Manstein's Revenge:   This is the map drawn by Adriaen Block from the servey of the New England coastline in 1614 on board the ONRUST. Where the replica of the ONRUST is at the moment, I have no idea. Some research could answer this question.

          Montani semper liberi !   Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                               Crackers      

crackers

  Though not as horrific as the burning of The Roman Emperor Caligula' s two pleasure barges, the destruction of a portion of the keel and ribs of the armed merchant ship TYGER, when a coffer dam was contructed for the World Trade Center in 1966, could also be considered willful. Due to construction deadlines, these relicts were carted off and a small bronze cannon stolen by a construction worker. Though a portion of the wreck was retreaved in a 1916 subway building program, the remainder should have been saved as well.

  The TYGER was a ship used by Dutch Captain Adriaen Block during his 1613 voyage of trade and exploration of the East Coast of North America. After sailing up the Hudson River, Captain Block moored his ship in Lower Manhattan to conduct trade with the local Lenape Indians. By November, the vessel was filled with pelts of beaver, otter and other skins ready for departure back to Holland . An accidental fire burned the ship to the waterline. The charred hull was beached on what was later to become the site of the North Tower of the World Trade Center and the tragedy of 9/11.

 Captain Block and crew manage to salvage some sails, rope fittings and tools and with some help from the Lenapes, constructed the little yacht ONRUST (Restless in Dutch), by April of 1614. The following month, Captain Block on the ONRUST sailed through the whirlpools of the East River into Long Island Sound to explore the coastline of modern Connecticut, sail up the Connecticut River, discover Block Island and Narragansett Bay off Rhode Island.  From this exploration, Captain Block made the first map of the North American East Coast based on the voyage of the ONRUST, the first servey vessel in America.  By early winter, Captain Block sighted an incomming Dutch vessel that took him back to Hollard, where he continued his mercantile business into Scandinavia. He died in Amsterdam in 1627. In 1616, the ONRUST sailed on a voyage of exploration to the Delaware River.

   From 2006 to 2009, the New Netherland Routes, Inc. built a replica of the ONRUST at the Schenectady County Historical Site at Rotterdam Junction, New York. Construction used authentic 17th century Dutch ship building methods. The hull is of white oak, while the deck is of pine. The replica is held together with 4,000 hand made pegs of black locust. Cannon and fittings are of Dutch copies. Photo of this replica is at the top of the page.

          Montani semper liberi !  Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                                     Crackers           

 

 

 

     

Beautiful ship. Thanks for the picture 'Crackers'.

  Though not as horrific as the burning of The Roman Emperor Caligula' s two pleasure barges, the destruction of a portion of the keel and ribs of the armed merchant ship TYGER, when a coffer dam was contructed for the World Trade Center in 1966, could also be considered willful. Due to construction deadlines, these relicts were carted off and a small bronze cannon stolen by a construction worker. Though a portion of the wreck was retreaved in a 1916 subway building program, the remainder should have been saved as well.

  The TYGER was a ship used by Dutch Captain Adriaen Block during his 1613 voyage of trade and exploration of the East Coast of North America. After sailing up the Hudson River, Captain Block moored his ship in Lower Manhattan to conduct trade with the local Lenape Indians. By November, the vessel was filled with pelts of beaver, otter and other skins ready for departure back to Holland . An accidental fire burned the ship to the waterline. The charred hull was beached on what was later to become the site of the North Tower of the World Trade Center and the tragedy of 9/11.

 Captain Block and crew manage to salvage some sails, rope fittings and tools and with some help from the Lenapes, constructed the little yacht ONRUST (Restless in Dutch), by April of 1614. The following month, Captain Block on the ONRUST sailed through the whirlpools of the East River into Long Island Sound to explore the coastline of modern Connecticut, sail up the Connecticut River, discover Block Island and Narragansett Bay off Rhode Island.  From this exploration, Captain Block made the first map of the North American East Coast based on the voyage of the ONRUST, the first servey vessel in America.  By early winter, Captain Block sighted an incomming Dutch vessel that took him back to Hollard, where he continued his mercantile business into Scandinavia. He died in Amsterdam in 1627. In 1616, the ONRUST sailed on a voyage of exploration to the Delaware River.

   From 2006 to 2009, the New Netherland Routes, Inc. built a replica of the ONRUST at the Schenectady County Historical Site at Rotterdam Junction, New York. Construction used authentic 17th century Dutch ship building methods. The hull is of white oak, while the deck is of pine. The replica is held together with 4,000 hand made pegs of black locust. Cannon and fittings are of Dutch copies. Photo of this replica is at the top of the page.

          Montani semper liberi !  Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                                     Crackers           

PaintsWithBrush

 though the Taliban probably has equal status with the destruction of the two Buddhist statues in Afghanistan.

I'll second that!

Along the lines of the ancient ships discovered, I would rate the greatest tragedy of all times would be the deliberate destruction of Caligula's two "pleasure barges" by the Germans when they retreated from Italy.

Now THAT was truly the WTF moment of all time, though the Taliban probably has equal status with the destruction of the two Buddhist statues in Afghanistan.

jtilley

One of the sadder instances of non-preservation was the U.S.S. Hartford (Farragut's flagship at Mobile Bay).  She lasted into the 1950s.  When she was finally scrapped and burned, the fires were burning at her stern while the curators from the Mariners' Museum were frantically ripping pieces off her bow - and the museum photographer was snapping all the pictures he could while he had the chance.

 

Uhu

 

"What I do NOT understand is the failure of historians to fully survey and document  these vessels before the are destroyed.   It costs almost nothing to photograph and measure everything and record it for posterity.  As far as I know, it just isn't done.  Even with small historic vessels like the tugboat,  nobody thinks to make a photographic record.    All sorts of historical societies and enthusiasts and university history professors stand by as history is wiped out permanently.     Then they bemoan the public's lack of interest.    Hel-lo?"

It's often a legitimate criticism.  Certainly it's a good thing if some responsible institution or individual takes the initiative to document the ship (or building, or other artifact) before it's destroyed.  And in many cases that does happen.

Quite a few years ago I happened to get a look at an archaeological dig that was taking place in Holland.  As happens occasionally in the Dutch farmlands that used to be under water, a farmer doing his spring plowing had run into an old shipwreck (fourteenth- or fifteenth-century, I think).  Dutch law requires that the professional archaeologists be given a certain amount of time to dig up, study, and, if possible, preserve such artifacts before the property owner does anything else to the site.  Unfortunately, though, uncovering the wood and iron remains of a hull that's been underground for hundreds of years accelerates the deterioration process - and the Dutch maritime museums already have such a backlog of shipwrecks to investigate that it's physically impossible to save all of them before they fall apart.  So, in the case of the dig I was lucky enough to watch, the archaeologists carefully uncovered and removed every individual part, photographed it, wrote down its measurements and other vital statistics, and drew pictures of it from several angles.  They had set up a metal tower, from which they photographed the wreck several times a day as new parts of it were exposed.  Then, having documented the ship in every way they could think of, they burned it.  One of the few surviving fragments is an iron spike that's sitting on a shelf in my office - surrounded by the rust that's fallen off it.

One of the sadder instances of non-preservation was the U.S.S. Hartford (Farragut's flagship at Mobile Bay).  She lasted into the 1950s.  When she was finally scrapped and burned, the fires were burning at her stern while the curators from the Mariners' Museum were frantically ripping pieces off her bow - and the museum photographer was snapping all the pictures he could while he had the chance.

Sometimes, indeed, the problems is that nobody takes the initiative.  (The last owners of ships that are on the verge of being scrapped frequently don't take much historical or cultural interest in them.)  Sometimes, though the problem is strictly practical.  Earlier in this thread, Uhu described how he tried to take pictures of that tugboat, but couldn't get close enough to do a good job because the property owners wouldn't let him through the gate.  (Their concern may have been legitimate to some extent.  If some amateur photographer or ship enthusiast had fallen on board the tug and broken his dinkus, CVS might have been legally liable.)

Nowadays, in the U.S., that sort of thing isn't supposed to happen.  As  result of the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966, each state (and each Indian tribe) has a State (or Tribal) Historic Preservation Officer, whose job is to keep track of historical resources and make sure they get the legal protection to which they're entitled.  Why the Massachusetts SHPO didn't intervene in the case of that tug I have no idea.  The explanation may well be the usual one:  too much work, not enough staff.  But that's a guess on my part.  The situation may also have degenerated into a battle between dueling lawyers - and nobody can predict how a fight like that will turn out.

Intervention by the SHPO doesn't necessarily mean the artifact will be saved.  Case in point:  the famous "Water Street Shipwreck."  The contractors working on the foundation of a new skyscraper near the Manhattan waterfront bashed into the remains of an eighteenth-century merchant ship, which had been scuttled there as part of a breakwater.  The State of New York, under the urging of the State Landmarks Commission, ordered a halt to the construction process for, if I remember right, 30 days, so the archaeologists could do their thing.  (The delay cost the developer millions of dollars.  We're talking about some of the world's most expensive real estate; he actually was surprisingly cooperative and congenial about the whole thing.)  There wasn't enough time to excavate the site "properly" (that would have taken years), but they were able to cut the first few feet of the ship's bow off and pile it into a portable dumpster.  During the next few years it got conserved and restored in the basement of the Mariners' Museum; I believe it's currently on exhibit there.  (I guess the rest of the ship is now buried under a Manhattan highrise.)

Anybody who becomes aware of a valuable - or potentially valuable - ship that's in danger of getting destroyed ought to get in touch with the State Historic Preservation Office as quickly as possible.  Those people have various delaying tactics at their disposal that can usually do some good - if no more than gaining time to take pictures and write down information.  But it's probably inevitable that some such cases will slip through the cracks.  Whether the SHPO has the authority to intervene in the case of a ship that the Navy has turned over to a commercial scrapyard I honestly don't know - but I suspect the answer is "yes, if he has the nerve."

I DO understand financial constraints not permitting historic vessels to be salvaged.  Its unfortunate but true, money for historic vessels buys no votes and so its politically a low priority item.  When insufficient money is available, its off to the scrappers.  

What I do NOT understand is the failure of historians to fully survey and document  these vessels before the are destroyed.   It costs almost nothing to photograph and measure everything and record it for posterity.  As far as I know, it just isn't done.  Even with small historic vessels like the tugboat,  nobody thinks to make a photographic record.    All sorts of historical societies and enthusiasts and university history professors stand by as history is wiped out permanently.     Then they bemoan the public's lack of interest.    Hel-lo?

Dave

The importance of the vessel aside,  with many people either refusing to belive, or being in denial that carriers would replace battleships as top dog possibly didn't assist the outcome?

Although not on the same scale or importance, there was outrage here in the UK when Ark Royal R09 was scrapped in 1980. The opposition suggested that would be a mistake & the Falklands conflict proved this to be correct. Attempts were made preserve her but the MOD refused. She had the World's first angled flight deck.

Lucky for the UK the Argentinians started the Falklands conflict when they did, as HMS Hermes the task force flagship had been given a decomissioning date of 1982, the same year. At least she was sold onto the Indian Navy & will see service until 2019 or so & missed the scrappies torch.

HMS Fearless was another ship that attempts were made to save, but again the MOD wouldn't play ball, what a sin;

Personally believe CVs are boring. If the Enterprise were saved and it was a choice between visiting Enterprise, any BB or gun type historic as in Olympia, Constellation, Constitution...I would pick the later.

Personal preference only. There is something phallic about the guns. Pardon the Freudian aspect but it is true.

I too get disgusted with many historical ships and otherwise getting scrapped. I know that the USS Ling is not very historical. I went to this sub as a cub scout and it  was very interesting to see along with all the things we take for granted during peacetime.

These ships are not just scap they are memorials.

I know that wikipedia sometimes is not that reliable but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ling_(SS-297)

Getting to this one a bit late.  

Having recently finished an involved CV 6 project,  the Enterprise scrapping story came up, of course throughout my research.  While I knew the story, going through it again is always disgusting.

One thing no one has mentioned, is the dumping of low time aircraft off the carrier flight decks as the WW 2 ended.  Another can of worms could be opened again regarding aircraft preservation, but I don't think we need to.

Today, I was doing some research on the submarine Drum that is part of the USS Alabama museum in Mobile.  The submarine's hull had rusted so much that a section of the hull collapsed exposing a torpedo room.  There's photos on navsource.

While the most decorated ship in US Navy history deserved better, I believe I'd rather see a ship go quickly than watch it rot at a museum without the funds to maintain it.  I guess that's the other side to the story.

Perhaps its trivial, but I imagine that the spirits of many Enterprise shipmates consider the ship's bell ringing to mark another Navy victory over Army  isn't a bad legacy at all.

They were thinking: "It's not worth doing". 

Like every questioned decision, it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

Historical items have been scrapped for ages. Their losses have been lamented for as many ages.

Yeah the engine was gone but  the external parts above the waterline that were interesting to model builders were in original configuration.  I remember trying to photograph that tug but it was all fenced off and all I got were the usual tourist shots instead of something I could use to draw plans.   No chance to get that now.   

The story CVS gave was the usual "it was dangerous" and "too far deteriorated to move"  blah blah blah.     Apparently the wheelhouse was preseved and will be used in a restoration. 

Alll these armchair and internet historians crying about it as events unfurled, but did anyone make a photographic record  for posterity?  I would wager not!    Pathetic!

Dave

jtilley

Nobody will be happier than I will if the current Enterprise gets preserved.  But it's highly unlikely - for two reasons.

First, the expenses of restoring and maintaining her would dwarf those of all previous ship preservation projects.  Second, nuclear-powered ships present special problems when they taken out of service. 

I agree...compared to the cost of preserving a modern, nuclear powered CA, the Big E would have been peanuts...especially if she were dry-docked and not left sitting in salt water...And, IMO, the Big E has much more of a reason to have been preserved than any modern carrier by virtue of her service record and what she contributed in WW2...

 I remember reading the story of that tug in one of the maritime preservation magazines.  I don't recall all the specifics, but as I do remember the fate of the tug was up in the air until the very last minute - when the property owners, having gotten clearance to do so, tore her apart as quickly as they could in order to head off any legal challenges.

I believe she'd already been cut off at the waterline -meaning that the engine would have been gone.  I may be wrong about that, though.  It's been quite a few years.

This is a particularly sad story because, in financial terms, it could have worked.

I feel the same way (sick to my stomach) when I see pictures of the P-61 "Lady in the Dark" stripped and sitting on the scrap heap.

Eric

Here's another travesty--  a preserved NYC Harbor steam tug from 1924 recently demolished by CVS to pave over a parking lot. 

http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/2006/06/27/buzzards_bay_rotary_tugbot_about_to_be_d?blog=53

And once again I ask, was any effort made to at least survey and photograph this vessel before destruction?  Not that I know of.    

Dave

Nobody will be happier than I will if the current Enterprise gets preserved.  But it's highly unlikely - for two reasons.

First, the expenses of restoring and maintaining her would dwarf those of all previous ship preservation projects.  Second, nuclear-powered ships present special problems when they taken out of service.  This subject came up in another thread a few months ago.  Mike F6F, who works for Newport News Shipbuilding and knows what he's talking about, noted that

"I'm not sure right now, but I'm afraid the de-fueling of the Enterprise could require the ship to be gutted like a fish. Even if not, the Enterprise would be another very expensive ship to try and maintain.

"A very worthy thing to consider would be working toward getting CVN 69 named Enterprise. The US needs a carrier named Enterprise serving in the fleet."

I'll second that motion.

That earlier thread, by the way, contained a number of interesting comments that are relevant to this discussion.  Here's the link: /forums/p/122174/1228222.aspx#1228222 .

I don't want to be too pessimistic about all this, but I'm afraid the era of preserving steel warships may be just about over.

jtilley

This has turned into a really interesting topic.  I'm starting to think that a worthwhile book could be written about the history of warship preservation in the U.S.

Also, the foreward by me:  "WTF were they thinking?"

First line of book:  "WTF were they thinking?"

Last line of book:  "WTF were they thinking?"...

Anyone want to guess whether the current Enterprise (CVN-65) will be preserved as a museum ship when she is eventually decommissioned?

I most certainly hope so.

   Professor Tilley is correct when he writes that the financial burden of restoration and maintenance of a historic ship can be staggering, especially now in these hard economic times.

    A sad case in point is the fate of the two masted center-board cargo schooner, ALVIN CLARK. The ship was raised from 110 feet of water near Chambers Island off Green Bay on Lake Michigan. Built in 1846 and owned by Captain William Higgie of Racine, Wisconsin, the ALVIN CLARK  was sailing empty under full sail when she suddenly capsized in a sudden storm on June 19, 1864. There, she sat upright on the bottom, preserved in silt and mud in cold water for 105 years, until raised to the surface on July 29, 1969. After being pumped out, the floating ALVIN CLARK  was towed to the Mystery Ship Seaport at Menominee, Michigan,  where a makeshift dry-kiln was constructed to dry her out slowly. It was hoped that entry fees from the viewing public would be enough to sustain the salvage costs and preservation maintenance of the ancient vessel.

 Unfortunately, the shortage of funds needed to preserve the vessel from decay could not be raised. In May 1994, after 25 years of constant deterioration, the remains of the ALVIN CLARK were demolished by a bulldozer and unceremoniously carted to a landfill. It would have been better for the schooner to have remained in her watery grave. The only items saved were relics from the interior of the vessel, which included the captain's writing desk, a clock, a wallet, clay pipes, a water pitcher, an oil lamp, three pennies and a crock full of cheese, which are on display at the Mystery Ship Marina and Museum in Menominee, Michigan. Because of the ALVIN CLARK fiasco, the Federal Government passed the Abandoned Shipwrecks Act which puts underwater wrecks over 50 years under the National Register of Historic Places and limits the raising of sunken vessels.

        Montani semper liberi !    Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                                         Crackers       

but her name lives on presently with cvn65 USS Enterprise. time will tell what happens when she is decommissioned & if the name gets passed on or not tho unlikely as a carrier.

It is really unthinkable what the lack of appreciation from some people can do to history. The Enterprise which was not just  another aircraft carrier or a fighting ship of WWII but the symbol of the american fighting heart was just trashed after the war. Now no matter what we say, its gone. A sad requiem to a brave ship.

parts of that ship still exists like superstructure, name on hull & part of flight deck. 

The last remaining USN carrier in nearly original WW2 configuration, the USS Cabot, was scrapped just a few years ago.  This happened after it was brougt to the USA for restoration into a museum ship.  Doomed by lack of interest and funds.   

Yet, somehow obscure, historically uninteresting post WW2 ships like the USS Little Rock manage to survive as floating museums.  It makes no sense to me.    If it were up to me, I'd have gladly traded the Little Rock to the scrappers for the Cabot.   

BTW was any detailed interior photographic survey taken of the USS Cabot before it went to the wreckers?  I doubt it.  

Dave

I tried to pull a quote from John's post, but this new website humbles my abilities (sigh)

Great stuff that map deal. The Peruvian sub was named after my town.... and a good afternoon spent wandering around that map.

Scratching my head about your question re: what was on display after WW2. Here are my thoughts.

Everything that won the war was new technology, so anything on display 1946-1956 (when I was launched) was either historic from a previous war, or still in service. And there was no real technology decommissioned from previous wars except predreadnought ships, in this topic. Otherwise still in service.

There were a bunch of LST's decommissioned at Alameda in the 60's. My employer and I went down there and he bought the chartroom furniture from a few. Our architectural office had beautiful plan drawers all made in oak from somewhere.

Later the backyard astronomer bunch bought the porthole glass for their use in laborious mirror polishing exercizes.

I was on the memorial just 2 years ago, a highlight of my life to be honest. I always wanted to go to Pearl as part of my bucket list. LOL

The Arizona doesn't quite qualify, but the surivors fought with distinction throughout the Pacific. Just a travesity that none got to be a memorial. The Maryland was my favorite of the Pearl BB's.