Box art is indeed not accurate, but if you like it, hey its your model :)
I collected the following info on PT boat colors awhile back, from various sources. My apologies if I do not give the authors proper citations, i just copy/pasted the info from whenever I found it. For my PT109, I used MM Dark green or tropical green cant recall exactly.
Hope this helps:
There are no known color photos of the PT-109. There are color photos of other PT boats later in the war in a green pattern camouflage. The boats were delivered to the Navy at the ELCO plant in Bayonne painted in an overall gray with a dark gray deck - not bare wood. It has been determined, and generally accepted that the boats in Kennedy's squadron in the South Pacific were painted overall in theater in a home-brewed green paint. White Ensign's Colourcoat line of paints includes this color. It is not an olive. If you must choose a paint which you have in your paint box -- go with a forest green.The hull bottom was painted in Copperoyd - a trademarked antifouling paint. It was a rusty-red color. Lowe's Hardware store sells American Tradition paint - their Red Primer is a good match. Out of the bottle - a 60:40 mix of Testors Rust and Insignia Red will get you close.I'll give you the raft in gray.On to the torpedo tubes ... the domed tip on the tube is a protective cap that blows off when the torpedo is launched. It is not the tip of the torpedo. It should be the color of the rest of the boat. However, since these are expendable items they could come from the warehouse in almost any color - grey or another green.The back end of the torped tube wasn't open. It was a door through which the back of the torpedo was serviced. It was hinged to swing inboard and held in place by a spiderweb of braces and thumbscrews. It should be the hull color.You may not want to hsue the big numbers on the hull. They were applied to the PT boat in President Kennedy's inagural parade. The myth that they were there sorta stuck. Use only the numbers on the front & sides of the chart room. I'm not sure about a number on the pedestal of the aft 20mm gun at the time of her loss, but they were there when she was put on a tanker to be shipped to the South Pacific as deck cargo.You may want to search through this MB for other threads on PT boats in general and PT109 in specific
White Ensign Models (colour Coats Enamels) # US-29 "tropical Green" hull color and US-14 Norfolk-65A "Anti-fouling Red" for the lower hull.
If you are doing your PT up at the time she was lost, the 37mm on the bow was lashed down with ropes & the life raft was left on the beach,
WEM has a detail set for this PT boat #7205 which replaces some of the kit's inaccuracies & enhances the kit. Also, WEM #7216 ship mounted 37mm gun
Hth
Just an FYI, depending on how historically accurate you want to be. The deck in the Revell kit is way off. The actual decks were plywood, not planks as with the kit. It is an easy conversion with one sheet of Evergreen styrene. If you really want to go all out the White Ensign photo-etch kit is awesome. It is kit # WEM PE 7205. It is a little pricey at about $50.00 but you will not be disappointed. There is more detail than Revell could have ever imagined.The best part about this kit is that it is inexpensive, a staple in the hobby that never goes away, and PT boats were modified at the whim of their crews so you can really never go wrong. Have fun and experiment.
Actually the decks were planked. Al Ross, noted author, historian and model pattern maker for Bluejacket Models, has located some photos of the decks of 80' ELCOs which show that the decks were planked. They just were not planked as grossly as the Revell model shows them. Other photos in Victor Chun's excellent book on US PT boats during WWII seem to show canvas applied over the fore deck and painted down. (Sort of like a fiberglas application).Sanding the decks down is an easy night's work. Be sure to backfill the hatches and torpedo tube bolsters with a putty.If you choose to go the Evergreen route be sure to check your references to make sure that you put the correct amount of camber (i.e. crowning) in the decks. They were not flat
Thank you Ed for sharing this with us. I've read on other boards about replacing the deck but, nothing ever mentioned about the "crowning" before! And you are correct, the decks are not flat. And, if I may add, PT Boat inc. has some useful info on this in the form of line drawings (I know he does on the hull).
http://www.pt-boat.com/
I agree with Ed's comments about the color. It's all speculation at this point. However I did correspond with a gentleman who stripped down these boats prior to painting and he had everything down to the primer colors. He was very specific about the color being "forest green" whatever that means. If you look at the boats as they transferred to Rendova they are very dark. My choice is going to be for a faded dark green and I'll probably rub some dark gray into the paint with pastels. I'll have to experiment with that first. Speaking with Dick Keresey who was the skipper of the 105 boat, he thought that the boats were gray up until he gave up his boat at Rendova. Take a look at the movie PT-109. They were very careful with boat details and one of the crew actually was in the movie. The boats are a dark green with gray tones. So that may give us some clues. The life raft most likely was gone or lashed to the top of the day cabin. The crew had scrounged a small boat that they used for getting around while at base. The mast is most definitely gone at the time of the 109 sinking and probably was never there from the time Kennedy had the boat.If you're modeling it at the time of the 109 sinking remember that the port depth charge was blown off when the forward port torpedo launched accidently in high seas. I would keep that in mind when installing the port toe rail and think about the repair that would have been done. It will make for a nice detail to have a slightly newer shade of paint in that area of repair. I'm curious about the torpedo covers. I've seen two types. One that has large screws holding it in place and another that has a piece of triangular shaped metal held in place by three wires. It doesn't look to me like these would blow off. If anyone has any history on this please let me know.
This is a very good question Dave, I've heard the torp tube covers were "blown off" when the torp was launched but, in "PT Boats in Action" (on page 15) shows 2 pics. 1) with cover attached & states (77' Elco) "Prior to going into action, the torpedoman would remove the cover to prepare the torp for firing." The other pic is without the cover & trained to the outside position for firing. showing the nose of the torp.
PT Boat finish...1. No, the boat would not have had the gray bottom. No clue where that color scheme came from and I've seen no photographic evidence to support it. 2. It would not have a boot stripe. Simply a antifouling red bottom (redish brown) and whatever color above deck. That said the boats sat in oily water. Typically they would have a stain along the water line. This can be duplicated with an oily wash of some sort. Just don't over do it. 3. The mufflers were typically painted to match the boat. So the bottom halves are antifouling red and the top matches the boat.
What I'm planning on doing is taking some ground black pastel chalk and a very stiff brush and running a narrow line along the water line. Rub it out along the length of the line with a cotton ball and I think that would do the trick. I think this will produce better results than if I tried using a liquid stain.
PS about the decks the Elco boats were so perfect even at 1/20 th scale no plank lines would be seen such as the 109.......higgins pts had poor finished decks and plank lines would be easy to see. The deck has a visable curve to help shed water off the sides,as for weathering the boats really looked like junk after a few months,anything that was metal had severe rust(except guns)see the links also at Mosquito boats web pages
The PT-109 is generally believed to have been green all over, with the exception of the hull bottom which was Copperoid (a red/brown anti-fouling paint). You're right - no color photos. There are some photos taken while the boat was on a tanker transporting her to the South Pacific (grey with dark decks) and one or two distance shots. The boats were repainted once in theatre.Your out-of-the-bottle paint selection is Colourcoats by White Ensign Models, either Tropical Green or MTB Green (can't remember which one right off the top of my head
The 109 was either overall Tropical Green or overall Navy Green with a Norfolk 65-A Anti-fouling Red bottom
When lost, PT-109 was in overall Tropical Green, a field-mixed colour that we have available in our Colourcoats enamels as item US 29. Have a look at Martyn Robey's build of the Revell kit
It depends, as it was painted several schemes between completion and loss. The original specs book for the 103 series boats called for Navy Gray (5) for the hull and Dark Gray (5D) for the main deck and above. Photos of 103 and 117 running trials bear this out. As the 109 was built between these two boats, she most likely carried this paint scheme initially. At some point between being placed in service and being transported to the Pacific, she was repainted at least once. Photos of her on the JOSEPH STANTON at the time she was being transported to the Pacific show what appears to be a single color overall. Contemporary photos of 107 and 105 show the same scheme. The shade appears darker than Navy Gray (5) and lighter than Dark Gray (5-D), so it may have been Ocean Gray (5-O). The earliest reference to a green scheme that I have seen comes from Donovan's book PT 109, in which he describes her as a "...dark forest green...". While this is clearly not an official name for the actual color, it does give you a basic idea of her color just prior to being lost. The original specs book for the 103 series, specs books for two later series, and a BuShips Allowance List for PTs all specify copper bottom paint. No mention is made of Norfolk red in any of these documents. As John Snyder mentioned, you'll find the colors you need in the ColourCoats line produced by White Ensign Models (WEM). Al Ross
I'm working on the 109 as well and I noticed that Martyn's had the props painted with the anti-fouling red. Is that the correct color for them? Perhaps we're looking at different photos. Those on the WEM site have a metallic look about them, which would be correct. The real props were aluminum-manganese-bronze, so they would be a dark reddish brown color.
Looking at photos (the basis for my beliefs) it just appears to me that the color of the 109 is darker than the tropical green. The 109 was sunk shortly after relocating to Rendova. I'm including a photo of PT-107 taken at the time it was in route to its new base at Rendova. This would be the same color as PT-109. These two boats were in the same squadron and would have the same resources available. I've also included a photo of PT-103 which was also taken at exactly the same time which looks the same as 107 if not a darker photo.I acknowledge that what I'm about to say is very unscientific. I took the photo of Robey's boat and converted it to a black and white photo. Comparing the two the 107 looks much darker. It looks like a darker green with lots of scuffing and weathering. I have posted in this forum some modeling tips for the 109. These are based on what I pulled out of Donovan's book PT-109 and the two known photos of 109 when Kennedy was in command. If you have trouble finding them let me know.I exchanged emails with a gentleman that removed the paint from PT-105 after the 109 sank and he told me that the color was "forest green" whatever that means. Forest green to me means dark green much like what is on the Revell box except with more weathering. Just for grins I've thrown in Hollywood's version of the 109. A member of the 109 crew played a roll in this movie and was a technical advisor. Is this the right color? It looks a lot like John's MTB Green. Darker still I think. I've also tossed in a photo of JFK in the cockpit of the 109 which you can find all over the internet. We'll never know for sure what the actual color looked like in the field and sorry if I'm just confusing the issue more. John and Al's information is extremely well researched and you're not going to be wrong following their advice. I'm still undecided on what to do about the finish paint on my model. I keep hoping that some miracle photo will appear but I doubt it. I'll probably end up going with some variation of dark green or perhaps MTB green. I'm building a 1/48 105 boat so maybe both. Best of luck
Some hints on making a an accurate PT-109 from the Revell kit after Kennedy took command...
1. PT-109 either had the mast in the lowered position or it didn't exist at all. When Kennedy got it the boat was well used. Photos of the 109 clearly show no mast. Speaking with the skipper of PT-105 this is what he thought.
2. PT-109 had roll off depth charges forward of the front pair of torpedo tubes. Kennedy had a torpedo accident with the port (left) forward torpedo. It accidentaly launched and blew the port depth charger right threw the deck. The deck was repaired but never replaced leaving only the depth charger on the starboard side of the boat. It would be accurate to build it either way. You will need to either buy them after market or scratch build them. You can find photos of them at some of the links provided earlier.
3. The boat should be painted a dark green. The original color was created mixing black and yellow paint. There are not accurate records of what the color really looked like.
4. The kit decals are not good. But DO NOT use the large letters that they show going on the bow. The 109 didn't have that. The only numbers are on the starboard turret, the gun mount on the stern and the front of the chart house.
5. Don't put up the rope stanchions on the fore deck. These were considered dangerous for the crews in combat and were stowed and never used.
6. Don't worry about the anti-tank gun that was lashed on the deck just prior to the boat being sunk. There's really nothing available in this scale and it wasn't there long enough to worry about.
These are the basic fixes for a beginer. There are more that can be done if you are a more advanced modeler. For example White Ensign Models makes a nice photo etch set for the boat. There are a lot of other minor modifications that can be done to make it more accurate that you can pick up on by looking at photos at the sites mentioned above.
Now, if you want to build the boat prior to Kennedy as it appeared coming out of the factory, do everything I mentioned above except put up the mast, paint the boat a two toned gray (top surfaces like the deck being darker) put up the rope stanchions and forget the depth charges.
Another hint. Do a Google search for PT-109 and select images. You'll see a lot of real bad interpretations there, but you will find some photos of the real boat.
Lindberg PT-109 article in FSM? September, 1994 I have it right in front of me
The standard U.S. Navy enlisted man's working uniform in World War II consisted of a light blue shirt and darker blue dungarees (i.e., blue jeans). The officer's working uniform conisted of a khaki shirt, khaki pants, and a black necktie - though I doubt very much that the c/o of a PT boat in the Solomons wore his tie very often. The navy helmet was painted a medium grey. Lifejackets could be found in several colors, but I suspect a dull, rather dark blue - about the same shade as the dungarees - would be most likely in this case.The numerous PT boat experts here in the Forum may shoot me down; if so, by all means believe them rather than me. But I think the above is about right.
The 109 is said to have been either overall Navy Green or Tropical Green, with an Copperoyd colored bottom. Copperoyd can be substituted with White Ensign Models' (even though this color was NEVER used on wooden hulls) Norfolk 65-A Anti-fouling Red. Some former crew members have said that she remained in an overall grey ... but, I am of the school of thought that she wore Navy Green.
As for the uniforms worn by the crews - that other gentleman has the right idea
That's the logo for ALL PTs, not just PT-109. It has blue water, white wavecrests, a silver torpedo and the mosquito (for mosquito boats) was grey, yellow wings black legs, black outline - or something to that effect.
There is a debate whether or not the 109 was in an overall green scheme or one of an overall grey.In the mid-80s, four of the then surviving crewmen who were aboard her on her last patrol wrote me. Two of the gentlemen indicated that she was in an overall green scheme and the other two gentlemen indicated to me that she was in an overall grey (and one of them said Battleship Grey) scheme.
I am of the school of thought that she was last in an overall scheme of Navy Green with a Copperoyd colored bottom.Now, you can acquire ACCURATELY matched paint from White Ensign Models in their COLOURCOATS line.You could use either Navy Green or Tropical Green for everything above the waterline and, even though this color was never used on wooden hulls, their Norfolk 65-A Anti-fouling paint is a very good match for Copperoyd. Or, also, for Copperoyd, you could use rust colored automotive primer paint.
Additionally, recently, one of my colleagues who is QUITE KNOWLEDGABLE about PTs, has informed me, that contrary to the popular belief out there now, that PT boats' shafts and props were indeed bronze in color and were NOT painted over the same color as the bottoms.
PT-109 probably looked a lot like the photo I'm attaching. Very dark green or green drab. I'm leaning towards a green drab right now with a red bottom as described earlier. How much detail you put into your model is up to you but if you do a search in this forum you will find a lot of opinions.Below is first a photo of PT-109 on National Geographic's book cover along with JFK in the cockpit of the boat. This photo indicates it is a photo of the boat before she lost her port depth charge during a high seas accident where the port torpedo accidentally launched. It is also before they lashed the 37mm cannon to the deck which was never permenantly mounted. Following are tw photos of PT-103 and 107, both of which were in the same RON as 109 and these photos are of the boats in transit to Rendova which is extremely close to when the 109 was sunk.Whatever you do don't paint the bottom white like the box cover. I may have to hunt you down
Online resources are a bit slim for the kind of internal detail which you desire
PT Boats.org does list copies of the original ELCO blueprints in their catalog. http://www.ptboats.org/pdfs/BP-List.pdf
They are exactly what you will need - but will tend to get expensive.
Some of these have been reproduced in smaller format in Victor Chun's book 'American PT Boats in WWII' . They are smaller, and all the information you may need are not there. The popular-press books do not cover the kind of internal details you seek.BTW -- the aftermarket resin Packard engines sold for aircraft models are not directly applicable for those used on PT boats.You must really see the White Ensign photoetched detail set for the PT-109. Many of the clunky details from the Revell kit are replaced with this kit. They also make a mor accurate 37mm anti-tank gun which the PT-109 carried at the time of her loss. Much better than the Hasegawa gun which has been used by may others previously.Colors - basically semigloss white interior and a locally brewed MTB green over a Copperoid bottom. White Ensign makes the correct green. Copperoid was a redish/orange primer-like color
"I can help you witht he paint scheme for PT-109. It depends on what period of time you wish to represent. Most people build it at the time just before it was sunk. Go with a dark green. Either White Ensign Model 5-NG Navy Green or Model Masters "Grn. Drab Enamel". If painting with a spray brush I would suggest adding a few drops of white to lighten up and provided hilight to represent weathering.
Here's my latest information on how to build an accurate PT-109 from the Revell kit.
"Preparation
1. Buy the White Ensign Models (WEM) Photo Etch set for the PT Boats and the 1/72 37mm anti-tank gun.
2. Two options for drawings. One is the Squadron Publications PT Boat book. It's not too expensive and has a good drawing of the 109. The other is to pick up drawings from PT Boats Inc. which are 1/48 scale and very detailed. Just a couple of mistakes. 3. Paint - For the entire boat I would recommend either Testors Dark Green FS34079 or White Ensign Model Navy Green N-5G. Lighten this up a little with white to give it a more scale look. Weather as you like. Typically these boats had oil stains along the water line. For the bottom I like White Ensign Model Anti Fouling Red.
Details
Starting from stem to stern this is my recommendation...
Overall
1. Follow the WEM instructions for the photo etch set with the exceptions listed later.
Deck Details:
1. Remove the bow light leaving the base. The wiring trails off to the port side of the mount.
2. Sand off most or all the deck detail including the torpedo tube mounts. I don't think that the WEM set has the large scoop vents on the foredeck so I would leave those. Many people say that the deck was not planked but on this class it was. The problem with the kit is that it's out of scale. My recommendation is to remove it all. Be sure to remove the brackets for the raft. They are way out of scale. 3. Don't install the standards on the foredeck. 4. 37mm - This was never installed for action on the boat. They got so far as to bolt down two long 2 x 8 planks. Metal brackets were fitted over the axles to hold it in place but this was never completed. To keep from losing it they used additional lashing that probably extended to the toe rails.
5. There should only be one depth charge rack and it is located on the starboard side. The one that was originally on the port side was smashed through the deck when the port side, forward torpedo accidentally launched in high seas and blasted the depth charge through the deck nearly killing one of the crew who was trying to rest below. Due to this I would expect that more of the toe railing on the port side would be missing. Imagine a torpedo slamming into the depth charge and how much of the deck would be destroyed because of it. Imagine the repairs. They probably didn't have extra toe railing laying around.
Chart House/Cockpit
1. The horn should be removed and corrected or left off all together. If you install it refer to photos. I think you can scratch build one fairly easily. There are no photos showing the horn. 2. The windows on the forward side of the chart house should be painted over. I can't say about the port and starboard windows and there is no photographic evidence. Typically these were not painted over. 3. The cockpit was surrounded with armor which extends level with the top of the replaced windscreen all around and to the back. There's no photo evidence to see what was done on the starboard side. It was either painted over or armor. So I would just paint it over. The windscreen itself was also replaced with armor. 4. Typically the machine gun attached to the chart house would be rotated to the 4 o'clock position with the gun pointed skyward. This was done because the gunner would typically access it from forward of the turret on the starboard side of the chart house where there is a step.
5. The mount for the spot light is wrong. The mast is typically mounted behind the cockpit and not on the deck. When the boats were built there was a mount attached to the port side of the cockpit so the skipper could operate. Photos of the 109 indicate that this was removed. Probably scavenged by some other boat.
Day Cabin
1. There were no shades over the windows. These should be removed.
2. Do not install a mast. I'm certain it was gone. There is one photo of the boat in action and the mast isn't up. I would suggest installing mounts for the mast only. According to the skipper of PT-105 masts were either stowed or gone all together. Since it's not up while under way I would bet it didn't exist. 3. There is probably a flag box on the forward side of the day cabin and directly behind the cockpit.
4. There is a spay shield on the top of the day cabin adjacent to the rear turret. On the kit it is open into the day cabin. That's all wrong. It's simply a shield and the roof under it should be repaired and sealed up.
5. The spray shields extending from the day cabin should have support rods installed. You'll need a drawing that shows that. It would be tough to explain.
6. I would throw the life raft on top of the day cabin. The crews typically just threw them up there to keep them out of the way. It wouldn't be wrong to not have it all together. They certainly didn't have it after the collision. In port PT-109 had a dingy at their disposal that was scrounged.
Finishing
1. The numbering did not have black backgrounds. There are NO numbers on the hull. I would only put numbers on the forward side of the Chart House, the side of the forward turret, and on the port side of the cockpit just under where the window might have been. Just a hair more than a foot down from the top of the cockpit. Finally on the 20mm turret mount on the rear. The numbers with the kit are too large. I don't know where to find scale numbers. I would suggest putting a post on the FSM forum and see if anyone has any ideas.
2. The pin holding the 20mm in place broke. To keep it from flying around they tied it off to the depression rail so that's a nice detail.
3. Except for the windows on the front side of the chart house, the windows were glass and had covers on the inside of the boat. The WEM set has covers but to do it right you would mount them on the inside of the windows. A way to model this is to put a clear finish over the painted windows to give it the appearance that there is glass over the cover. Make sense?
I've never seen a model of the 109 done right, particularly in this scale. It's a lot of work but if you follow these instructions you'll have it nailed.
In the Pacific theater the ships were painted green. A very dark green with a mix of paints that, as far as I can tell were mixed basically by the guys doing the painting. Sure they had a reference they were supposed to use, but there was a war on and the man said "Paint it!" So they did. The tropical sun would fade the paint rapidly anyway
Thanks for the hint. Most of my relts and their friends were small to medium boat Navy, so I should've known. But, No-One liked to paint the ship! Dilute the paint with a quarter white and weather with burnt umber to taste
Here is the best links that I have for such information.
http://www.ptboats.org/
http://www.defendersofamerica.org/DOANM_WWII_Photos.cfm
http://www.huckinsyacht.com/history_PT.html
John,
It's going to depend on which boat and when. I trust you're building the Revell kit. It's a model of the PT103 class boat. Out of production these boats were painted a couple of shades of gray. However just prior to deployment to the pacific they were painted green by mixing black and yellow paint because that's what they had. You can do the same thing or go with a dark gray/green. White Ensign Model produces a paint they call MTB Green which is frankly their best guess
In the book "American PT Boats in WWII" by Victor Chun, he has several pages on camoflage, and paint, plus there are great pictures, unfortunately their all in black and white. I finished a Revell PT boat recently and made it a late war boat, with roll off torpedos and a 40mm Bofors. The nice thing about the PT boat is they were so heavily modified by their crews almost anything is OK.......
See my PT: http://home.comcast.net/~jragusa5/Models.html
The early Elco 80' PTs were delivered/commissioned wearing a scheme of #5 Standard Navy Gray on the hull, with decks and cabins painted 5-D Dark Gray.
In the early part of the war those boats deploying to the Southwest Pacific repainted in MTB Green (and ours is based on more than just guesswork!). Those boats in the Philippines did repaint in a green made from yellow and black, but those were not Elco 80-footers. Boats in the Southwest Pacific in 1942-3 often painted up in a field mix known as "Tropical Green", made by mixing equal parts of 5-TM blue tinting paste and 5-GTM green tinting paste with 5-U White (this is what the 109 was wearing when lost). The Navy began to issue official greens in 1943, and then revised them twice in 1944. We've got MTB Green, Tropical Green, and both versions of the 1944 revised greens accurately matched and available in our Colourcoats enamels. You'll also find camouflage patterns, with specific color notations, in several books. The best available is Allied Coastal Forces V2, which has loads of information on the boats, their weapons systems, and their camouflage.
Does anyone really know for sure? The reason I say that, and we've had this conversation before, is that Dick Kersey wrote me and told me his boat (PT-105) and all the other boats in his squadron were gray at the time of the 109 sinking. Robert Lanthier who has done extensive research working directly with PT Boat crews and building models for them in 1/10 scale (his work is at the PT Boat museum) was told that the boats were green and painted with a mixture of black and yellow paint (basically an OD Green) because that's what they had to work with in the field. PT Boats Inc. says it was two shades of gray which we know is how the 103 class were originally painted out of the factory. For the most part the majorty seem to believe that the boats were dark green. It is very likely (as you mentioned to me before) that memories fail and get confused so Mr. Kersey whose boat started out as gray may just remember it that way. You also explained to me earlier that there's no evidence of what the paint really looked like and suggested that the MTB Green is as good as anything. I really like the MTB Green you sent me but I'm also going to place an order for the Tropical Green and give it a look. As frustrating as it has been to determine the color of these boats I've found it a very interesting historical discussion. I've learned a great deal and met some teriffic people in the process. I really appreciate the work you guys at WEM do to try and solve these little mysteries. In the end they may just stay that way but I know you guys are doing your best to add some clarity and help us modelers to recreate history as accurately as possible.
Certainly the passage of years has made things very foggy. I base my statements on the work of Al Ross, whom I consider Mr. PT boat (co-author of Allied Coastal Forces with John Lambert). Al developed a list of virtually every boat and the camo it wore, in V.2 of that work (V.3 should be out some time this year or next). Al's father served on the 34 boat in the Philippines (the "They Were Expendable" squadron). We know from photographic and other evidence that the 109 and others wore the #5 Standard Navy Gray/5-D Dark Gray scheme on delivery. Photos of them loaded for transport overseas shows them to have been repainted in a monochromatic scheme, undoubtedly one of the greens--probably MTB Green which was a ready-mix. Once in the field though, they would have had the same sources as the rest of the Forces Afloat: 5-U White, 5-TM Blue Tinting Paste, and 5-GTM Green Tinting Paste, and the ratios for Tropical Green that I cited yesterday are recorded.
PT Boats Inc. now has a message board and I went there to see what I could learn about the color of the RON 5 boats (PT109, 105, 103, 107, etc.) while at Rendova in the Solomons. I didn't find what I was looking for so I posted a new message asking if anyone had any definitive information on the subject. I received a lot of responses. Here is what I've learned and believe to be as accurate as we're going to get on this subject.
Photographic History:
a) The boats were light gray on the hull and 5N or dark gray on the upper surfaces coming out of the factory and during testing. This is documented.
b) When the boats were operating near the Panama Canal area photographs indicate the color was changed. It appears from the photos that the boats were simply painted 5N or dark gray on all the surfaces. John Snyder makes an excellent point that history tells us that it is very unlikely that there was any 5N paint in the Panama. However my books show the 109 painted all dark as it was loaded and shipped to the Panama Canal zone so it's reasonable to assume that they were painted while in New York. One of the respondents sent me a clipping (unable to identify source) that said the boats were painted dark gray when they were loaded and shipped to Panama.
c) The next evidence I have shows photos of RON 5 boats 103 and 107 in route to Rendova. At this point they have been painted a new color which is from all accounts green and darker in appearance than when the boats were in Panama. In the photos the boats look almost black. All of the respondents said that the boats were dark OD green including a vet who even described the underlayment colors as they stripped them down in dry dock in 1944. Donovan's book, PT-109 describes the color as "forest green" which he certainly learned from his interviews with the former crew and other participants in the theatre. Photos of the 109 boat also indicate that the color is very dark. One person indicated that the color was Navy Green 5-NG. John Snyder and Al Ross indicated the color might be "tropical green". I purchased samples of WEM's MTB Green, Tropical Green, and Navy Green 5-NG as well as some Testors products. I layed on samples against a gray primer. MTB Green was too light. Tropical Green was too blue and didn't strike me as even close to OD Green. Only the WEM Navy Green 5-NG lightened with a little white paint for aging and scaling gave me the result I was looking for which when photographed in black & white most closely matched the photos I have. Maybe not scientific but it's the best I have to work with. I found a similar paint color from Testors (Dark Green FS34079). However I need to put in a little plug for the WEM folks. Their paint is a joy to work with. It shoots nice from an airbrush and brushes on much better than the Testors product. It's absolutely marvelous stuff and the price is reasonable. As Al Ross told me, nobody knows for sure. But based on all the input and the photographic evidence I believe this is as good as I'm going to get and I'm sure I'll like the finished result.
The 5-NG that we produce is the final version of that color, introduced in late 1943. There were at least two earlier, official, dark greens. In 1942 the USN introduced their first series of greens & browns--Brown 1A through 4A and Green 1A through 4A. Green 1A was a very dark Olive Green, in the neighborhood of FS 34064. I'm not sure off the top of my head whether these paints were made available to forces afloat pre-mixed, or were mixed from tinting pastes; I think they were pre-mixed at Mare Island and Norfolk USN paint factories. In early 1943 those colors were dropped and replaced by 4 greens--5-HG Haze Green, 5-OG Ocean Green, 5-NG Navy Green, and 20-G Deck Green--which were mixed using 5-GTM Tinting Paste and 5-U White. Those colors apparently proved a bit too bright in use, and in late 1943 the 5-GTM Tinting Paste was revised to a more olive green hue, resulting in 5 new revised olive greens with 5-PG Pale Green and 5-LG Light Green being the newcomers. In 1944 the USN revised things again for the amphibious and PT forces, with the new colors being #1 Green, #2 Green, #3 Green, and #4 Brown. I strongly suspect that the color in question may have been the 1942 Green 1A. If you have access to a set of FS chips you'll see what I mean when you look at 34064. If anyone wants an accurate look at all of these colors, order the USN Set 2 paint chips from Randy Short at http://www.shipcamouflage.com. We also have MTB Green and Tropical Green available, as well as #1 Green, #2 Green, #3 Green, and #4 Brown.