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Heller Victory Research

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  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Heller Victory Research
Posted by Force9 on Thursday, July 8, 2010 12:11 AM

I’m new to this forum and I drifted in because, after a layover of 20 years or so, I’m back into modeling and undertaking the Heller Victory that’s been languishing in my attic for all that time.

Amazing changes have occurred in the intervening decades since I last attempted to model anything... advances in computer aided kit design and manufacture, PE, Resin, and other aftermarket components... better airbrushes...better glue... better paint, etc.  However, I think the most profound change to ship modeling is clearly tied to the internet.  The fact that I could rebuild my toolset from scratch at a fraction of the cost of the “old” days simply by getting on the good side of Model-Expo, Micro-Mark, and others... I even outbid a Belgian on eBay for a second kit after discovering warps and cracks on my original Heller model.  Copies of McKay, Longridge, Chappelle, and others are just an abebooks or Amazon click away.  Obviously forums such as this one are also an enormous benefit of the internet.  In fact, the access to other perspectives and the ability to dip into the collections of museums around the globe, naval archives, and Wiki articles galore will make my Victory much different than it otherwise would’ve looked had I built it when originally purchased.

Researching any ship on the web is an adventurous hobby in itself.  I’m amazed at how much conflicting information is out there regarding even such famous ships as HMS Victory and USS Constitution.  I’m especially intrigued with these two since they still exist and many experts have clearly shaped their respective restorations.  But do they accurately represent their most famous periods?  Can I be confident that the restored Victory looks as she did on October 21, 1805?  Can anybody?  Because I have access via the web to plenty of information, including some very significant contemporary artifacts, I think I’m only confident in thinking that the great ship in Portsmouth represents a compromise across many expert opinions, and not necessarily her actual Trafalgar state.  In fact she differs so much in some key respects to what appear to be reliable contemporary sources (at least sources that veterans of the battle were able to influence) that I’m inclined to think there are limitations to what can, and cannot, be used by her restorers as an approved source to modify her appearance.

Certainly anyone hoping to tackle a Victory model should start with the Portsmouth Victory website and the standard sources tied directly to the restored ship - Longridge, McKay, et al.  But I didn’t end my research there - I’m trying to look a bit beyond...  In particular I’ve centered on a few specific contemporary artifacts:  The 1803 block model in the NMM Greenwich collection, the famous Turner painting (also in Greenwich), and the Trafalgar painting by Clarkson Stanfield commissioned by the United Service Club, London.  Since I will base much of my Victory build on this last painting it will have a very different look from most other efforts.  (In fact, I’m a bit surprised that my quick search on various topics in this forum has not turned up any previous discussion of this particular painting.)

If I could indulge a conceit and submit a brain dump to summarize my current research (mostly via the web) on each of these sources I think it might prove worthwhile to the few of you willing to wade through... Certainly I’d welcome contrary views and other perspectives that let me hone my approach.

Caveat: I have no academic credibility and my findings are ultimately my own compilation/opinion... My apologies in advance for the length of my dissertation and the oft travelled ground (on this and other forums) that I may touch upon.

I'll break my ramblings into several posts highlighting each source so that I don't break the record for longest single post.

Look for these headings:  

Heller Victory Research - 1803 Block Model

Heller Victory Research - The JMW Turner Painting

Heller Victory Research - Clarkson Stanfield’s painting for the United Service Club, 1833

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: Jerome, Idaho, U.S.A.
Posted by crackers on Thursday, July 8, 2010 1:34 AM

    I an quite impressed with your desire to perform extensive research on Nelson's flagship, VICTORY. I hope you can actually build the model and share your modeling experience with Forum members like myself. I have the Heller plastic kit of the VICTORY that is gathering dust on a shelf of my hobby room as future " do to'" project. Any modeling information I can gather will be gladly added to the research I have already accumulated inside the kit box.

            Montani semper liberi !        Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                                       Crackers           Geeked

 

 

Anthony V. Santos

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Thursday, July 8, 2010 10:30 PM

Crackers

Thanks for the encouragement.  I'm still early on in my build - I anticipate years of fun and frustration before the final line is tied off.  I saw your USS President on another thread - she looks very fine.  I tried the 1/96 Revell kit many moons ago and I've had it in mind to revisit that kit someday and convert her to a sister ship (of course I once had the "Building Plastic Ships..." book that detailed the President conversion, but lost it a few moves back).  

I can share a few snapshots of the beginning phase of the preparation of the half hulls on my build:


I have nearly completed filling in the blank area on the bottom of the hull. I'd like to display the model up on pedestals so this might be exposed to view. I figure I'll give it a go and if I screw it up I'll drop her back down to the standard display position.

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I cleaned out each gunport opening and got rid of any semblance of trim or edging that might've been moulded in place - that will be represented by slightly offsetting the linings that I am putting in place. 

Starboard progress so far:
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I've paused on the upper deck until I work through the fit of the inner bulwarks that will be visible from the waist. 

Folks can follow my build log on the excellent Pete Coleman Victory Modelers site...

Cheers

  • Member since
    July 2010
Posted by nbaxt000 on Monday, July 26, 2010 6:52 PM

Hello.  Could you please tell me what size styrene stock you used to border the gunport doors?  I really like your idea of replacing the copper plates on the bottom section, too.  Thanks!

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:30 AM

you could also try buying copper tape and cutting individual plates. I've done something similar when i built the Phantom from Modelshipways.

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 11:30 AM

nbaxt000

Hello.  Could you please tell me what size styrene stock you used to border the gunport doors?  I really like your idea of replacing the copper plates on the bottom section, too.  Thanks!

Regarding the copper plates to fill in the blank area on the bottom: On my trial hull, I had experimented with affixing the longer strips all at once and then scribing the plate pattern afterwards - very neat and much faster, but I didn't find the end result satisfactory enough.

Working top to bottom, left to right (need to work right to left on the port half hull), I've used very thin Evergreen strip ( item 107 .010 x.156) slightly overlapped on its predecessor, each custom trimmed to my pre-scribed guide marks to maintain the alignment of the moulded pattern. I think I averaged 10 - 15 minutes of my life for each row.

I'm on record with the opinion that the thickness of the half hulls need to be enhanced to represent the scantling of a first rate.

I used different sizes to represent the diminishing thickness of the sides as you move higher:
3.2mm x 4.0mm styrene strip on the Lower gun deck
2.5mm x 4.0mm styrene strip on the Middle gun deck
2.0mm x 4.0mm styrene strip on the Upper gun deck
The quarterdeck ports stay as they are...

I've found that generally I can chop up lengths of just under 1/2" for three of the sides, the fourth is best cut a bit smaller. I glue the top piece first to set up the alignment, then work clockwise around the opening - carefully checking the fit from the outside each time. Takes me about a minute or so to do each port.  Bondoman has tried another effective approach - set up the side pieces on the lining first, then set the bottom sill piece, pivoting it upward to position it level.  This will compensate for the extreme angle of the middle gun deck bulwarks.  I'll need to come back behind with some filler and file level to achieve the same level sill...

 

Progress to date:

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Still need to come back and fill in the tiny cracks and imperfections...

It'd be worth the effort to join the Pete Coleman Victory Modelers forum - you'll see another modeler using copper strips to very good effect on his build.

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
Posted by nbaxt000 on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 4:33 PM

Force9, thank you for that information!  Sounds like a lot of work but I guess if taken a step at a time it will be simple enough.  I'm just now a little over halfway done with my 1/96 Revell USS Constitution, converted to the USS President via the methods in Les Wilkins's book How to Build Plastic Ship Models (which I think is a really great book overall..especially for plastic sailing ships) and plan to start my Victory right after, so for now I'm doing all my research and info. gathering.  bondoman was kind enough to give me a copy of the Imai version instructions, which really do clarify the rigging, as I'm sure you know is a nightmare with the Heller instructions.  He also mentioned the Pete Coleman forum.  I've checked it out briefly, and I'll be sure to look for the real copper plating that you're talking about.  It seems to be a very valuable site for this model, and I'm sure it can answer almost any question I'd have about the kit and improving it.  Thanks again, and what you have really looks great!

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 7:35 PM

nbaxt000

  I'm just now a little over halfway done with my 1/96 Revell USS Constitution, converted to the USS President via the methods in Les Wilkins's book How to Build Plastic Ship Models (which I think is a really great book overall..especially for plastic sailing ships) 

 

nbaxt000

Thanks for the kind words.  I once had the Les Wilkins book and really regret losing it in a move sometime back.  If I recall he had you cut down the freeboard a bit and move the main mast back... I recently dug out my 20+ year old Constitution:

Somewhere under all the dust is a decent effort that my older self could improve upon.  Some green bulwarks, new hammock cranes, a bit of rework on the carronades... Who knows?

 

Good luck in your build

  • Member since
    July 2010
Posted by nbaxt000 on Friday, July 30, 2010 6:56 PM

Wow!  Great job on the Constitution!  I only hope I can do as well.  I do have one more question about the Victory.. Regarding the gunports, I know they are to be painted red.  My concern is this must be a masking nightmare when painting the yellow and black stripes afterward (or maybe you do them first).  Any suggestions on this?   Thanks again!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Friday, July 30, 2010 7:10 PM

nbaxt000

Wow!  Great job on the Constitution!  I only hope I can do as well.  I do have one more question about the Victory.. Regarding the gunports, I know they are to be painted red.  My concern is this must be a masking nightmare when painting the yellow and black stripes afterward (or maybe you do them first).  Any suggestions on this?   Thanks again!

After a long ponder, I did it as follows: yellow, then black with the bee stripes masked, then I masked all around the gun ports from the outside, although most had a side that didn't need it because of a swale or plank seam or something. Didn't do the quarterdeck and didn't worry about the insides of the lower decks. Painted the red by hand and it worked out. Oh, and I used acrylic, and a cotton swab on the bloopers.

I'm waiting for my rings, and install on the port lids, before I paint them.That step scares me too.

  • Member since
    July 2010
Posted by nbaxt000 on Sunday, August 1, 2010 3:24 PM

That does sound tricky..but doable.  Thanks!

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
Posted by djrost_2000 on Wednesday, August 4, 2010 8:31 PM

For pics of the Victory as she is today, I go to Google, type HMS Victory photos and all kinds of pics are available.  I have the McKay book and also a junior reader's  book "Stephen Biesty's Cross-Sections Man-Of-War" which covers in rich detail the interior of the Victory.  Again, it's for junior readers but you might get some good information.

~Dave

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Wednesday, August 4, 2010 11:34 PM

nbaxt000

...Regarding the gunports, I know they are to be painted red.  My concern is this must be a masking nightmare when painting the yellow and black stripes afterward (or maybe you do them first).  Any suggestions on this?   Thanks again!

 

At the rate I'm going with all of my "enhancements" I figure I'll be able to apply paint along about the year 2020Wink   When I do reach that stage... I will work the hull paint from light to dark.  After the The yellow-ochre is laid down, the bee lines are masked off and the black painted over.  After ensuring the edges of the gun ports are sealed against the tape (it might also help to coat the sealed edges with dullcoat) I'll apply the red by brush.

It should be noted that all of the exterior and interior painting of the half hulls is best done before glueing the halves together.

Good luck

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