USS John Paul Jones

Jack:

I'm going to take a shot here, I recall that kit as well.  Revell offered a "box scale" kit of several of the Forrest Sherman DD's in the 1950's and 1960's (including the USS John Paul Jones, DD 932, commissioned in 1956).  I'm thinking that the kit was a bit larger, somewhere between 1:256 to 1:300.

The Forrest Sherman class DD's were pretty distinctive ships, flush hull with a high bow, 1 single-gun 5" turret and a twin 3" mount forward and another 3" mount and two 5" turrets aft.

I checked quickly to see if there was an example out on oldmodelkits.com, but no luck.

It sounds like it was a Revell kit.  There have been several American naval vessels named John Paul Jones; the one Revell represented (which is the only plastic kit of a ship of that name that my senile brain can remember) was a Forrest Sherman-class destroyer.  (Ships of that class are easy to recognize: they have one main gunmount facing forward and two facing aft.)  The kit was orginally issued in 1958 under the name Forrest Sherman, with the kit number H-352.  (My source, as usual, is Dr. Thomas Graham's fine book, Remembering Revell Model Kits.  He lists the scale as 1/320.  That sounds about like I remember it.)  For some reason it was released again that same year under the number H-359.  It reappeared in 1961 as the John Paul Jones (H-309), in 1962 as the Decatur (H-430), in 1968 as the Forrest Sherman again (H-459), in 1972 as the JPJ again (H-309), and once more as the Forrest Sherman in 1973 (H-463).  Dr. Graham's coverage stops in 1979; the kit may have been reissued one or more times since then, but if so I don't recall it.  I'm also not sure whether it's ever been issued by Revell Germany.  At any rate, it doesn't appear to be on the market now.

Dr. Graham's book (the 2004 edition) estimates that the various issues are worth between $20 and $50.  I'm pretty sure they're all identical except for the decals and box art.

Hope that helps a little.

Thanks Carmike, You've described he kit perfectly and the real thing as well. I should have actually measured the model while I had it here to determine the exact scale but oh well. My brother was thrilled with the memories anyway

Thanks  for the post. The kits you describe match perfectly with what I had. It was kind of fun repairing all of the errors of our youth and adding some better features. I wish I could find an unbuilt kit and do it right from scratch. It was a fine kit and I haven't found any examples of this class anywhere

please tell me theres a uss john henry bonham uss robert plant and a uss james page?

Jack:

Glad I could help some!  Revell and Revell-Germany are re-issuing a number of vintage kits and I wouldn't be  surprised to see this kit re-issued at some point.  Thinking about it, I seem to recall that that were some very annoying pin marks from the mold on the deck surface, but otherwise it was a nice product for the time.

There are a couple of nicely built kits over at modelshipgallery.com, including this one by Richard Wonderly:

Richard gives the scale as 1:324 and another modeller gives the scale as 1:330.  If someone wanted to update the kit with PE, it looks like it might provide the basis for a very nice model.

Carmike

Jack:

Glad I could help some!  Revell and Revell-Germany are re-issuing a number of vintage kits and I wouldn't be  surprised to see this kit re-issued at some point.  Thinking about it, I seem to recall that that were some very annoying pin marks from the mold on the deck surface, but otherwise it was a nice product for the time.

There are a couple of nicely built kits over at modelshipgallery.com, including this one by Richard Wonderly:

Richard gives the scale as 1:324 and another modeller gives the scale as 1:330.  If someone wanted to update the kit with PE, it looks like it might provide the basis for a very nice model.

 

Here is where it really gets interesting. My cousin and a former co-worker both served on the USS  Forest Sherman at different times during the Vietnam era. One was in the mid to late 60's and the other was in the early 70's. I don't believe either of them had any pics etc. Like many vets of that time it was hard to get them to talk about their time in the service.

Trolling back through my senile memory, with a great deal of help from Dr. Graham's book, I see that 1958 was something of a classic year for Revell ship models.   The company released four new warship kits that year:  the Arizona, Essex, Forrest Sherman, and Buckley.  (There was also one modified reissue:  the seaplane tender Pine Island, which had originated in 1956 as the experimental "guided missile ship" Norton Sound.)  I remember building all of them several times.  The Arizona, of course, is a classic that's been in the Revell range almost constantly ever since.  (Dr. Graham notes:  "Revell head engineer Charles Gretz traveled to Hawaii to gather material for this model.  The kit was later used as part of the fundraising promotion for the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor opened in 1962.")  It's featured in an article in this month's FSM. 

We've been discussing the old Essex in another Forum thread lately; it obviously stirs up nice, nostalgic memories in lots of modelers. 

I also have a special warm spot for the Buckley, which has just recently been reissued.  The detail on that kit, including such things as stowed helmets for the gun crews, fire hoses, and washdeck swabs, surely set a standard for the fifties - and hasn't often been surpassed.  (Why, oh why, didn't the designers pay as much attention to the guns, which are nondescript blobs?)  I may have to pick up the new version out of sheer nostalgia.

As I remember (beware:  my memory is notoriously unreliable), the Forrest Sherman was on just about the same level of detail as the Buckley, with one big exception.  The Buckley had individual guardrail stanchions, and included a little card of grey thread to rig the rails themselves.  (The stanchions for the maindeck were cast in strips, which fit - not very well - into grooves along the edge of the deck.  The joint-filling problem was pretty serious, but the thread rails in themselves represented a big leap forward.)  The Forrest Sherman, on the other hand, still had the overly-thick, solid guardrails that had characterized Revell's ships from the beginning.  (So, for that matter, did the Arizona and the Essex.)

Revell's 1958 releases catered to other varieties of ship enthusiast, too.  Ocean liner fans got the beautiful S.S. Brasil - Revell's second liner (after the United States in 1955).  That one is much sought-after today - in either its original form or in its later guise as the Argentina.  What modeler wouldn't be seduced by those little pieces of blue aluminum foil that represented the water in the swimming pools?  And sailing ship buffs got the U.S.C.G.C. Eagle. 

I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing all those kits again.  Come to think of it, I'd probably buy all of them.

I purchased a half built kit of the Pine Island on E-Bay several years ago and completed it this spring. Repainted it and assembled it right from the box so to speak. It's a fine addition to my "Gator Navy" and support system kits of transports and tankers. I also remember the USS Montrose as a troop transport. I also built the USCG Eagle. Loved them all.

Current versions of John Paul Jones or Forrest Sherman can be found in 1/700 and 1/350  both are resin models.  The Forest Sherman from JAG (http://www.jagcollective.com/Ships_catalog.htm)  is a gorgeous kit that will build out to a beautiful model in the most common scale.   ISW, Iron Shipwright (http://ironshipwrights.com/ships_350.html)  has an iteration of the class as well in its catalog.   WS

Hi PROFF! I definitely feel as you do.I am anxiously awaiting my "BUCKLEY" re-release and I just recently acquired three, yes ,three! JOHN PAUL JONES type FORREST SHERMAN destroyers.They were acquired at a flea market and all were built.The thing is the builds were clean enough that after some time in my freezer they came apart cleanly .I will now rebuild them according to my talents ,with photoetch where needed and such.The person who had them also has an ESSEX and the CANBERRA(liner) as well as the ARGENTINA and the BRASIL.I have already pre paid for the whole mess.He is a man I,ve come to trust so no problem there!He also has some that are unbuilt as well so he,s going to bring them in the first week of SEPTEMBER.I am quite puzzled at what he has, as I still can,t bring myself to open the boxes and build the ships in my VICTORY AT SEA and REVELLS commercial set( the UNITED STATES, THE HAWAIIAN PILOT, the LONG BEACH TUG and the 56 CADDY CONVERTIBLE.and the AMERICAN AIRLINES DC7C These are all in their original boxes and I want to leave them to my GRANDSON who has evinced an interest in preserving them.He too has the VICTORY AT SEA SETS.I acquired doubles years ago and gave them to him as a 12th birthday present! He builds armor mostly and he,s trying to find the BANDAI 1.48 scale GERMAN ARMOR kits that had FULL interiors!!.He knows I want them to build. How,s that for something going full circle!!! That,s a fact! thanks for being here for us. tankerbuilder

John:

I was thinking about your observation that  "As I remember (beware:  my memory is notoriously unreliable), the Forrest Sherman was on just about the same level of detail as the Buckley, with one big exception.  The Buckley had individual guardrail stanchions, and included a little card of grey thread to rig the rails themselves.  (The stanchions for the maindeck were cast in strips, which fit - not very well - into grooves along the edge of the deck.  The joint-filling problem was pretty serious, but the thread rails in themselves represented a big leap forward.)"

Somewehere in this timeframe (late 50's) Revell offered several kits (the USS Olympia and the "Four Stack Destroyer") that had individual stanchions molded as part of the hull.  As I recall, some of the stanchions were not fully formed in the molding process and others, being fragile, got broken off when the kits was removed from the mold and packaged.  Others got broken in the course of assembly by eager, young (at least in 1958) modelers.

Am I right in thinking that the stanchions were a middle step in the progression from the solid railings in earlier kits to the separate stanchions on a base approach used in the Buckley?

By the way, the Buckley was a favorite of mine as well - and I agree that the 3" mounts, the twin 40mm mount, and the single 20mm guns left quite a bit to be desired.  I recall that Aurora offered a model of the U-505 around that time, and it was just about the same scale - making the Buckley and the U-505 great fun for anyone who had just seen "The Enemy Below," a great movie about a fight to the end between a Buckley class DD and a U-Boat.

Regards,

Mike    

Mike,

FYI The Institute of Science and Industry in Chicago, home of the real U-505, has scale model kits of the U-505 for sale in the museum shop. Don't know if they can be ordered. I bought one when visiting my daughter at University of Chicago. They have done a magnificent job of restoring the U-505 and enclosing it in a large facility. You enter the  area from below and look up at sub itself in a blue gray green kind of light making look as if you are seeing it under water. Its great.

Carmike

John:

I was thinking about your observation that  "As I remember (beware:  my memory is notoriously unreliable), the Forrest Sherman was on just about the same level of detail as the Buckley, with one big exception.  The Buckley had individual guardrail stanchions, and included a little card of grey thread to rig the rails themselves.  (The stanchions for the maindeck were cast in strips, which fit - not very well - into grooves along the edge of the deck.  The joint-filling problem was pretty serious, but the thread rails in themselves represented a big leap forward.)"

Somewehere in this timeframe (late 50's) Revell offered several kits (the USS Olympia and the "Four Stack Destroyer") that had individual stanchions molded as part of the hull.  As I recall, some of the stanchions were not fully formed in the molding process and others, being fragile, got broken off when the kits was removed from the mold and packaged.  Others got broken in the course of assembly by eager, young (at least in 1958) modelers.

Am I right in thinking that the stanchions were a middle step in the progression from the solid railings in earlier kits to the separate stanchions on a base approach used in the Buckley?

By the way, the Buckley was a favorite of mine as well - and I agree that the 3" mounts, the twin 40mm mount, and the single 20mm guns left quite a bit to be desired.  I recall that Aurora offered a model of the U-505 around that time, and it was just about the same scale - making the Buckley and the U-505 great fun for anyone who had just seen "The Enemy Below," a great movie about a fight to the end between a Buckley class DD and a U-Boat.

Regards,

Mike    

Carmike's memory matches mine pretty much.  Dr. Graham's book clears up the dates.

The Olympia was originally released in 1959 - a year after the Forrest Sherman and the Buckley.  ('59 was a good year for Revell ship model fans too; it also saw the initial appearance of the N.S. Savannah, H.M.S. Victory, the notorious cutaway George Washington-class Polaris submarine, and the big Cutty Sark.)  The 4-stack destroyer appeared for the first time, under the name Buchanan, in 1960.  If Dr. Graham's dates can be believed (as I think they can), it was the only genuinely new ship Revell released that year (though there were several reissues). 

The sixties were, in fact, a relatively barren decade in terms of new Revell ships.  Dr. Graham lists, by my count, 86 "1960s Modern Ships."  Six of them are the short-lived 1/720 "International Scale series, which offered the waterline/full hull option (the Prinz Eugen, Arizona, Ark Royal + Tribal-class destroyer, Essex-class carrier, South Dakota-class battleship, and nuclear Enterprise - all from 1967-1969).  Apart from those, the only new ship kits from the sixties were the Queen Mary (1961), the Elco and Vosper torpedo boats (1963 and 1965, respectively), the Bismarck (1963 - Revell's first non-American warship), the nuclear cruiser Long Beach (1960), the Yorktown-class carrier (1967), the liner Oriana (1961), and the fireboat Firefighter (1962).  Sailing ship enthusiasts (like me) actually did almost as well:  we got the Mayflower (1966), the Charles W. Morgan (1968), Alabama (1961), Kearsarge (1961), and - arguably - Revell's biggest ship project ever, the 1/96 Consitution.

That old "four-piper" has always been a favorite among ship modelers - for, in my opinion, good reason.  I've always wondered, though, how on earth the designers managed to incorporate that one, awful mistake into it:  some poor schlep took the trouble to include "planking seams" on the decks.  All the 4-stackers had steel decks; in fact I'm fairly certain that no American destroyer ever had a wood deck.

I remember the problem of busted rail stanchions pretty vividly.  (As I remember, some - but not all - of the Olympia's stanchions were cast as separate parts, but the ones on the edges of the maindeck were molded integrally with the hull - and often didn't survive shipping.)  I think the 4-stacker was the last Revell warship with individual stanchions (except for the torpedo boats and a few other small vessels of various sorts).  The "International Series," as I recall didn't have railings at all.  Wise decision on somebody's part.

Ah, memories.

I was wondering about the process of putting the kits in a freezer to take them apart. What exactly is this process and what types of built kits is it good for?

Thanks

John ( jay jay)

Hi guys, I just Joined a few minutes ago,  I was searching for info on USS John Paul Jones and stumbled onto this forum, did't realize how rare this model was.  I happen to have four of them, one opened but unbuilt, and three still sealed.  Revell H-309, 1971, 15 3/4" , 'Box scaled' to about 1/320-1/330?  I am planning to sell one of these on Ebay next week.  I have too many models, too little time.  I have some pics but don't know how to post them here yet.  Let me know if I can email any body some pictures.

I'd love to see some pics also interested in a possible purchase but be careful what you sell them for. A little back in this discussion there is a link to a website that specializes in old out of production kits and some of those unopened ones are pretty pricey so don't sell yourself short. That is ofcourse unless you want to sell it to me!!! 

e-mail is john_nicoletto@msn.com

Good luck

Jack