a question to anyone

...maybe...

ap me

    I am thinking about building a destroyer escort hunting a type 9 -boat.  I plan to submerge the type 9 in clear resin using several pores to do the job.  thin detail the water and fracture the resin to simulate detonation of the wasser bombs.   does anyone know if this will melt the plastic the sub is made of?

Your thin pours will need to be a quarter-inch or less.   Thicker and you run the risk of warping the polystyrene.  

Barring forced perspectives, probably ought to rough some of this out by calculator first.

At 1:700 a 300' deep dio is a nice 5' deep.  Trickier part is that the attack separation once depth charges are laid in a pattern is about  200-300 yards (which seems long, except that, at 30 kts you are going about 990yd/minute).  300 yards at 1:700 is 15".

Depth charges are set in a pattern, a full spread could be eight depth charges on a oval sort of shape of about 25 x 50 yards. 

So, we need a box probably about 6" wide, and 7 or 8 would be better.  But, let's keep this a linear box.  So we need 22" by 6" by 5"--or 660 cubic inches.  Which the online calculator says is 23 pints, which is a lot or resin.

So, a forced perspective with either a 1:1200 surface ship or sub might fit in a 12 x 6 x 3 box, which is only 216 cu.in, or 7 and a half pints of resin.

Which suggests building a plex box with "shower glass" plex for the surface, and suspending the sub by a brass rod periscope.

And this is all spoilt by the tactical reality.  Your active sonar was good for about 1000 yards at a speed slow enough to get a direction track.   Ok, that's not but a couple minutes at all ahead full, except that the pig boat can move 2-300 yards in that minute, and the sub can hear you the second the machinery winds up, which then trashes your sonar.  So, you need to work up a bits of putative calculus as to where you thing the bogey will be in about 2 minutes so as to know where to lob your depth charges.  Except you also have to allow of the sink rate of the ash cans (this after making a bet as to the depth of the sub, the detonators only having 3 to 5 depth settings).

So, your best bet is a curving track to your firing datum, and bringing that curve into a tactical turn, the better to bring your sonar dome back on target.  The trick of that being that you just detonated something like 1 to 3 tons of explosives underwater, that turbulence takes time to ebb.  And your sonar will "reflect" off the turbulence while it lasts.  The sub will still likely be able to get your bearing by passive hydrophone until you slow significantly.

But, that would make for a complicated dio.  One ship running in an attack curve, with another standing off at 1-2 miles distant, and the sub, below, anywhere below.

I think trying to fill up a container with resin, while a good idea in theory, is something I would want to test first. Instinct tells me it could quickly lead to one of those Oh @#*&()@#@ moments we all know and love in modeling.

Maybe forget showing the explosions and just show the depth charges slowly sinking to depth? 

Two problems- chemical "melting" and melting or warping due to cure temperature.

Polyester resin WILL dissolve some plastics, but it is much cheaper than epoxy.  Suggest you do NOT use polyester.  Both polyester and epoxy get hot when curing- how hot depends on how thick a layer. I had a paper cup of the stuff actually char when setting up.

Ship modelers around here are going to clear acrylic gel medium for water in dioramas. It can be laid down pretty thick, but not as thick as stuff that is cast.  What I would do is cut sub near top, mount diorama on blue-green painted board.  Then add thick coat of acrylic gel medium. Another transparent coating is clear polyurethane varnish but you have to build up very many coats. A quarter inch layer should be reasonable. I have had a bit of trouble with transparency with mine, but others have it turn out pretty clear.

There is a new stuff the model railroaders are talking about to simulate water, but I have not tried it yet- you might ask at a hobby shop.

I think Don may be talking about 'Realistic Water' by Woodland Scenics. I bought two bottles for a little over $15.00 each at my local hobby shop. I have also seen it at Hobby Lobby. The directions say that it covers an area of a 17 inch circle at 1/8 inch depth per bottle. If you have to have a deeper depth, just keep adding another 1/8 inch layer until you have what you want. I have yet to try it out but the directions say nothing about it generating heat. HTH, Jon

I would really advise against the solid block of clear approach. It would take a lot of time, a lot of money, and weigh quite a bit. Also at any point in the process of pouring the 20 or so layers you'd need, one bubble or speck of dirt will really ruin your day.

I know from my model railroading that pouring more than an 1/8" or so of clear stuff leads to visual distortion and discoloring. All of these types of products also shrink some when they cure, and you'd have to figure out how to go back and true up and polish the faces of your block.

I agree with Mac. A layer of clear acrylic as a lid on a box is a type I've seen, although never done myself, quite often done, and well. You can either get it textured, or mess around with all the ways there are to make waves, and toss it out and start over if you don't like it.

An interesting question would be underwater visibility. I tend to regard these types of displays as fantasies, where you suspend (pun intended) your intuitive knowledge of water in favor of an artful display akin to a mobile. A check of a couple of sources suggests underwater visibility in the North Atlantic ranges from 50-100 feet, which is entirely unsuitable for your model.

A conclusion I'd suggest is that since you are creating an artificial environment for the sub, and there's nothing wrong with that of course, no different than a ship on a stand; choose your medium in terms of what's workable, and air is a good choice.

An item I found a while back at a  craft shop was the clear plastic that starts as a 2 part liquid and is mixed. It is used to form a "water" like appearance in artificial flower displays. I'm told you can add small amounts of food dye to give a transparent but colored look but I haven't tried it. It doesn't heat and is meant to be used in a larger one pour casting. The only problem is it is hard to find.

maybe i'll just make it a already captured u boat, on the or slowly sinking one. that way the tank would be about 2 ft long, 4 inches wide and 6 inches deep.  a whale boat in between i might even scratch up a enigma machine as a prize

At 24x4x6 its still going to be a big, expensive hunk-o-plastic you're thinking of doing.

Lets do some math (Oh why!  Its summer vacation and I don't have to think).

24"x4"x6" is 576 cubic inches which is about 2.5 gallons volume. 

http://www.smooth-on.com/Urethane-Plastic-a/c5_1120_1156/index.html?catdepth=1

http://www.smooth-on.com/Tin-Cure-Silicone-/c1113_1276/index.html?catdepth=1

Smooth-On's clear pourable resin runs about 160 to 170 dollars a gallon.   Your'e going to need 3 gallons worth so that will run you into the ballpark of 500 dollars in material cost.   (oh, and BTW -- the Smooth-On clear plastic needs to be used with  a respirator and other protective items).

You or others can find the numbers for Woodland Scenics imitation water or other materials and run the numbers on 2.5 gallons of them.

As others have recommended, a plexiglas box of a similar size made up of 1/8 thick panels will run you much less.   Cut a "form fitting" opening in the top to receive the hulls, and blend it into the hull with a clear medium.

Or for an artistic approach,  see the article by John Leyland in the How-To ship articles section of this site where he mounted a ship on a semi-circle of plastic.  One side shows the waterline,  the other the full hull.

For a capture/sinking scene (recall this was tried several times and only succeeded the once by Capn Gallery, v. U-505) those are good dimensions for 1:700.   You have about 400 yards between the vessels, close to be whaleboat close, far enough to be beyond the mimimum range of the ship's guns.

However, you almost would be better off making it "flat" just waterlining the thing entire.

But, sheet of acrylic could be cut to make the surface.  A really thin piece could be used and split the hulls and apply them to each side.  Which could be done to mimic the diffreaction of water or in perfect aligment. 

They make shower door panels which have a wavy, transluscent effect.  The textured side could be turned down for the "underside" if te seas, then acrylic gel medium or the like used on top for waves and wakes and the like.  I'd paint the surface under the acrylic, and let the scale effect handle the rest at 1:700.

But, unless the sub is at a dramatic angle, there will not be much to see underneath, is my guess.

But, the "clear box" can suit.  I remember seeing one carried out quite well.  The back and side walls had been painted in a gradient fashion, ending up clrar at the "surface."  The scuba divers were suspended from a line to that surface, and the dive boat above.  Not bad for about 6 x 6 x 30 tall.

Hey AP ME! You will have to be a weightlifter to do the project.Try this.I used slightly RIPPLED plexi as a box.Inside this I suspended on a clear brush bristle(actually a broom.) a machine known as a deep diving submersible.Near it I have the ROV that I built along with the sub.On the surface is the mothership.That was originally a LINDBERG minesweeper kit.The plexi I chose is hard to find ,BUT,you can use what,s available today and sand an area smoother so you have ,in effect,windows that don,t ruin the ambiance of the project. I took the sheet I used at the back and CAREFULLY darkened it and part of the sides too.This gave the effect of dissappearing visibility in the distance. If you use common sense you can and will have quite a conversation piece!! GOOD LUCK    tankerbuilder      On the "windows "you do have to buff out the area you sand for the windows.

ok, here we go.   my final design will be.   resin about 1 inch deep.   using a 350 scale destroyer escort,  at about 5 knots.   towing a surfaced, but slowly sinking type 9 sub ( bow and 1/2 of tower above the waves)  it will be a depiction of the 505 capture( i think it was the 505,  need to make sure of that........................ok, now open for comments................be nice or ill take my toys home.

1)  You want the PitRoad Cannon DE in 1:350 instead of the Trumpeter England.    PitRoad & Trumpeter work together on many projects.   The PitRoad kit more accurately depicts the DEs which captured the U505.   The PitRoad kit is basically the England kit but it has the correct stack and weapons for a this version of a DE.

2)  Your DE will be 10.5 inches long in 1:350 scale.    For comparison, Gulfstream Type IX is 9 inches long.    You can't just end the sub aft of the CT.   It would look hokey.   Similarly you need a bit of space fore and aft of each model.   Conservatively lets add one inch.   The DE didn't tow the sub on a short cable.  I don't know exactly,  probably on the order of 500 feet,  but lets shorten it by half for modeling sake.  250 feet in 1:350 scale is  0.7 feet or 8.5 inches.  

10.5 + 8.5 + 9.0 + 2.0 = 30 inches.    Thats a good size.    How wide?   Lets say 6 inches.   30X6x1 is 180 cubic inches.   180 cubic inches is 0.8 gallons.   Good,  your material cost for the resin is now more manageable, but still in excess of 150 dollars.     Remember the respiratory hazard wanings on using clear resins and the heat that thick pours will generate.  What will you use to frame your pour box?

I guessed a six-inch wide diorama.   That will result in a very linear display.    You may want to widen it to eight inches and allow more of a diagonal presentation for interest.   That will result in 240 cubic inches or a hair over a gallon.   You may compensate by making the pour a bit shallower.

Since no one offered to run the numbers for the Woodland Scenics water,  I'll venture a guess.  Per their own info, one bottle does a 17 inch diameter "pond" to one-eigth inch deep.   Therefore, one bottle is 0.21 cubic inches.   You will need 378 bottles to make your 180 cubic inch pour.   At ~17 dollars ( $16.99 MSRP) per bottle you're looking at almost 650 dollars in material cost.   

The florist clear water for silk flowers is one of the Smooth-On prices I quoted you earlier,  still over 150 dollars in material cost.

Just some things to think about

In terms of towing, I just checked Wiki fwiw to confirm my recollection- the DE's failed in towing the sub and it was towed most of the way by CVE-60. Now, the sub didn't have any motive power, so I would suspect it was a rather long tow cable to keep the carrier out of trouble. CVE models are hard to come by, and most are Bogues, not Casablancas.

But here's what I would do. The tow was finished by a fleet ocean tug, ATF-96 Abnaki, which would make a lot more sense as a dio, and she's only 200 feet long. Others would know more, of course, but I like the concept.

There's a company I'm not familiar with, Battlefleet, because I haven't built 1/700 resin, yet. They make what looks to me to be a really nice model tug.

http://www.battlefleetmodels.com/id136.html

I kind of want one...

bondoman

In terms of towing, I just checked Wiki fwiw to confirm my recollection- the DE's failed in towing the sub and it was towed most of the way by CVE-60. Now, the sub didn't have any motive power, so I would suspect it was a rather long tow cable to keep the carrier out of trouble. CVE models are hard to come by, and most are Bogues, not Casablancas.

There's supposed to be one coming out the end of the year in 1:350 scale  from Hasegawa (think big bux).   Of course the carrier will increase the size and increase the volume, increasing the resin material cost (ca-ching!)

bondoman

But here's what I would do. The tow was finished by a fleet ocean tug, ATF-96 Abnaki, which would make a lot more sense as a dio, and she's only 200 feet long. Others would know more, of course, but I like the concept.

Iron Shipwright makes a1:350 ATF Fleet-tug.   This is my USS Abnaki, the tug which completed the tow of the U-505 to Bermuda.    It placed at the 2001 (damn, was it that long-ago?) IPMS Nats in Chicago - home of the U-505.   Age and the display case haven't been kind -  the masts got bent on the return trip home.

At 7 inches long the subject could decrease the size of the display.     Once the tow was established the water flow turned the props on the U-505.   The generators were cut into the now turning prop shafts allowing electrical generation to power the pumps.   The U-505 was on an even keel (+/-) on her arrival in Bermuda.

Y'know, Ed is likely on to something there.

A person could get three vessels in our 30-36 x 6 x 6 putative volume.  The ATF could be depicted in the pass-off from the DE towing the U-Boot. 

Even better, it would break the "linearity" of the scene, as the scene could be set as the ATF takes up the strain, so the U-boot could be aligned to the original base course, the DE falling off to one side, and the ATF just starting to take up the strain.  The hawsers  both slack and taut in the water would and interest, too.

I'd be inclined to use acrylic gel medium, as the seas were rather lumpy, if I remember the account correctly.  Toughest part would be taking a saw to that u-Boot kit to get the right hull attitude.  But, the one key feature, the periscope raised with an American flag flying would almost be worth it alone.

Yep, and Gallery in Khaki on the bridge.