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Great buy on a classic documentary movie

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  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, August 23, 2010 8:33 AM

jtilley

.........Americans are horrifyingly ignorant of history - regardless of educational background.  I'm sure the freshmen at Harvard and Yale do a bit better on introductory surveys than ours do, but ever poll that comes out demonstrates the same thing:  Americans just don't know much about history.

. ........ And the horror stories from my colleagues who teach world history are worse.

I wouldn't put a question about the total number of lives lost in WWII on such a survey, because I don't know the answer myself - and I don't think anybody else does.  

......... But fewer than half of my students will be able to tell me who the U.S. was fighting in the War of 1812, and scarcely any of them will be able to "name the American President who, in the 1820s [HINT HINT], issued a statement that became a cornerstone of American foreign policy."

John,

I just cannot understand the reason for this lack of knowledge of US history, especially noticeable in most people under 60. It would be easy to blame the education system but I think the problem is deeper than that.

I came across this clip on Youtube which help support this observation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkQ6XgXeNuY

Rather than asking for a number I was thinking more along the lines of – roughly,

1.        Total population of Charlotte.

2.        Total population of North Carolina

3.        Total population of Canada

4.        Total population of Texas

5.        Total population of Canada and Texas combined

If your students don’t know who the US was fighting in the 1812 war I would not expect them to even know who the president was in 1820 let alone his doctrines.

I would hope the model builders of Constitution, Kearsarge and Alabama who read these pages would score much better with your questions.

Geoff

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:59 AM

I love the World at War. I've seen the series countless times though. Since I bought it like 3 years ago, I see it about 3 times though every year. I used to have a copied set on VHS.

One documentary that I totally recommend is WW I narrated by Robert Ryan. Fantastic video narrrated by the amazing Robert Ryan. Excellent writing and footage. Nothing like it. Very cheap too.

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 Eric 

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:55 AM

jtilley

I should emphasize again that I haven't watched anywhere near all of the series.  B&N just e-mailed a notification that my copy is on the way; I expect to spend a good bit of time in front of the TV when it gets here.

I am on my fourth collection of this series; the first, I painstakingly recorded one episode at a time from broadcasts from WTBS on a Beta VCR episode by episode in 1985; the second, I bought on VHS format as a complete collection after my Beta machine gave up the ghost; the third was a poor set of DVDs that soon suffered from skipping and missing segments; the fourth is a good set of DVDs that I spend lots of time watching at work when there is down time. I can watch it with the sound off and know what is being said or the music being played in the background or I can listen and know in my head what the scene being shown is. I've never gotten tired of it and have watched the entire series countless times. I don't think it has been time wasted at all. Now I am waiting to get it on Blue Ray, why? Because it is there!

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, August 21, 2010 10:42 PM

Geoff is right, of course:  Americans are horrifyingly ignorant of history - regardless of educational background.  I'm sure the freshmen at Harvard and Yale do a bit better on introductory surveys than ours do, but ever poll that comes out demonstrates the same thing:  Americans just don't know much about history.  I wonder, for instance, how many of the people taking part in the current "Tea Party movement" are aware that the Tea Act of 1774, which precipitated the Boston Tea Party, lowered the tax on tea imported by the British East India Company into the American colonies.  And an interesting recent revelation was that a big percentage of Americans - albeit, thank goodness, not a majority - don't know that Hawaii is a state.  One of the questions on my first-day survey asks the students to tell me whether certain quotations are contained in the United States Constitution.  Twenty to thirty percent generally say that "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is part of that document.  When I tell them it is in fact a quotation from Karl Marx, the typical reaction is "who's he?"  I could go on indefinitely.  And the horror stories from my colleagues who teach world history are worse.

I wouldn't put a question about the total number of lives lost in WWII on such a survey, because I don't know the answer myself - and I don't think anybody else does.  One of the big losers, in terms of human lives, was China, whose records are notoriously sketchy.  There's plenty of room for argument about the Soviet and Japanese numbers as well.  (Just how many people died as a direct result of the atomic bombs?  Do we count people from Hiroshima and Nagasaki who died of cancer ten years later?  I have the impression that historians have given up trying to agree on a specific answer to that one.)  But fewer than half of my students will be able to tell me who the U.S. was fighting in the War of 1812, and scarcely any of them will be able to "name the American President who, in the 1820s [HINT HINT], issued a statement that became a cornerstone of American foreign policy."

One rather interesting question on that survey:  "The United States entered the Second World War after an American military base was bombed in a 'sneak attack' on December 7, 1941.  What was that American military base?"  For the first eighteen years that I taught at ECU, I could figure that between twenty and thirty percent of the students would miss that one.  Then, suddenly, in 2001 everybody in the class got it right!  Thank you, Ben Affleck.  (Last year a couple of people missed it.  I suspect the number will be a little higher this time around.)

Good historians - like those responsible for "The World at War" - undoubtedly knew something about the code-breaking story by 1973.  (That the U.S. Navy had cracked some of the Japanese codes was well-known before the war ended.)  But the whole story of the Ultra intercepts broke in the very late seventies, when large numbers of British documents got declassified.  And a great deal of good, revisionist history has been done since then.  A good example is the book Shattered Sword, by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully, which, largely through the use of Japanese sources, has pretty thoroughly shaken up Americans' traditional understanding of the Battle of Midway.  The opening (briefly) of some archival sources in the former Soviet Union, in the early 'nineties, also let western historians in on a lot of material that previously had been closed to them.  It obviously wouldn't be fair to expect stuff like that to be covered in a TV documentary made in 1973. 

I should emphasize again that I haven't watched anywhere near all of the series.  B&N just e-mailed a notification that my copy is on the way; I expect to spend a good bit of time in front of the TV when it gets here.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:31 PM

jtilley

…..About the only weakness of it is the simple fact that it's so old.  (According to the Barnes and Noble website, it was produced in 1973.  That means that, for example, it doesn't say anything about the "Ultra secret," and none of the interesting research done over the past 37 years is reflected in it.)  That's not a criticism; just something that needs to be taken into consideration when watching it.

……Personally, as a college teacher and an historian by profession, I want young people to be aware of what a horrible and gruesome experience war is.  (If they have nightmares about it, that seems to me to be a healthy reaction.)  But I also think there's room for movies that, without sanitizing the story beyond recognition, put the emphasis on other aspects of it.  

…..The bottom line, though, as far as I'm concerned, is that anything that gets kids interested in history is a step in the right direction.  (As I tell my museum studies class every year, the typical American teenager is interested in precisely six topics:  automobiles, rock music, beer, marijuana, sex, and sex.  Getting him or her to take the slightest interest in anything else is an almost impossible challenge.)  Next week I'll be confronting yet another classroom full of college freshmen in a U.S. history survey course.  On the first day of class I'll pass out a preliminary survey, in which I'll ask them such questions as "In what year did the American Civil War end?" (About five percent will know the answer.)  And "Name two countries the United States was fighting in World War II."  (About twenty percent won't be able to name one, and ten percent won't be able to name two.)  And "Which side, the North or the South, did the United States support in the Vietnam conflict?"  (At least twenty percent will get it wrong.)  I have to remind myself that most of the people in that classroom were born during or after Operation Desert Storm.

SuppressionFire - I have little tolerance for Political Correctness. History is what it is and any attempt to suppress discussion of it is, in itself, an attempt to distort.

As for WWII, General Eisenhower stated “The world must know what happened, and never forget.”

John - The fact that it is ‘old’ does not detract from the basic record of history and what can be learned. Also, thought I may be wrong, I thought they did talk about the Enigma machine and Bletchly Park at some point in the series.

There was a recent production - "WWII Behind Closed Doors: Stalin, the *** and the West", a BBC/PBS documentary film on the role of Joseph Stalin during World War II which does add quite a lot of new information.

The main things that struck me about the original was the chilling, matter-of-fact, unemotional delivery of the narration. There was no ‘glory’, no patriotism, no winners. It just let on with the eternal question – “So what was the point of it?”

As for the freshmen you are confronting next week – don’t think they hold exclusivity in a lack of either American, or especially World, history. Many of my ‘well educated’ colleges share the same impediment.

A few extra questions you may like to throw in – “Who were we fighting in the American Civil War?”, “Who was Joseph Stalin?” and “How many people died, worldwide, as a result of WWII?”

Geoff

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, August 21, 2010 9:26 AM

I share everybody else's high opinion of "The World at War."  I haven't watched it all the way through (I'd certainly like to), but all the episodes I've seen have been of extremely high quality.  About the only weakness of it is the simple fact that it's so old.  (According to the Barnes and Noble website, it was produced in 1973.  That means that, for example, it doesn't say anything about the "Ultra secret," and none of the interesting research done over the past 37 years is reflected in it.)  That's not a criticism; just something that needs to be taken into consideration when watching it.

The university history department where I work has a copy of the whole thing on VHS tape.  It's getting pretty old now, but it gets a fair amount of use.  I'm not competent to talk about whether it would be acceptable in public school classrooms all around the country, but it would here in North Carolina.  (My wife is a high school history teacher.)  The policy around here is that teachers can screen any movies they want, but if the film is rated "R" (or, I suppose, "X") they have to get a "permission slip" from each kid's parent allowing the kid to watch it.  (The initiative for that policy came from the parents - not the teachers or administrators.  My wife rarely has any trouble collecting the permission slips - though some of them are probably forged.  The only big problem she's ever had was with a family of Mormons, who utterly refused to let their kids - who were good students - watch R-rated movies.)  "The World at War" is designated "NR," so it wouldn't be subject to the rule.  "Saving Private Ryan" is used pretty frequently in high school classrooms around here.

I confess I personally have somewhat mixed emotions about that particular issue.  I remember when "Glory" came out on video.  My stepson, who was 12 at the time, watched it with his mother and me, and showed little interest in it.  The next day we walked into the living room and found him and a couple of his friends watching, over and over, the scene near the beginning where the Union soldier's head gets blown off.  Later I took him to see "Gettysburg," which contains quite a bit of pretty good history but scarcely any gore.  Admittedly the kid was a little older by then, but during the intermission and after the movie was over he pummeled me with questions like "What would somebody like me have been doing during that battle?  If I'd been old enough to join the army, which side would I have been on?  When that general said 'there are times when a corps commander's life does not matter,' what was he talking about?  Why did those guys march across that big field in straight lines?"  Etc., etc.  I felt like the ticket money had been well spent.

Personally, as a college teacher and an historian by profession, I want young people to be aware of what a horrible and gruesome experience war is.  (If they have nightmares about it, that seems to me to be a healthy reaction.)  But I also think there's room for movies that, without sanitizing the story beyond recognition, put the emphasis on other aspects of it.  

The bottom line, though, as far as I'm concerned, is that anything that gets kids interested in history is a step in the right direction.  (As I tell my museum studies class every year, the typical American teenager is interested in precisely six topics:  automobiles, rock music, beer, marijuana, sex, and sex.  Getting him or her to take the slightest interest in anything else is an almost impossible challenge.)  Next week I'll be confronting yet another classroom full of college freshmen in a U.S. history survey course.  On the first day of class I'll pass out a preliminary survey, in which I'll ask them such questions as "In what year did the American Civil War end?" (About five percent will know the answer.)  And "Name two countries the United States was fighting in World War II."  (About twenty percent won't be able to name one, and ten percent won't be able to name two.)  And "Which side, the North or the South, did the United States support in the Vietnam conflict?"  (At least twenty percent will get it wrong.)  I have to remind myself that most of the people in that classroom were born during or after Operation Desert Storm.

I feel old.

 

 

Later edit:  I took another look at the B&N website. "The World at War" normally sells (to B&N "members") for $89.95.  But when I clicked on "Used copies available from our network of booksellers," I found a copy - brand new, still in the factory shrinkwrap - for $35.00!  Needless to say, I ordered it.  What a find!

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2007
  • From: Truro Nova Scotia, Canada
Posted by SuppressionFire on Saturday, August 21, 2010 7:44 AM

GeoffWilkinson

 

 SuppressionFire:

 

Nothing compares to the documentary 'World at War' Uncut in its entirety.

 

 

If you are refering to the 1969 documentary narated by Laurence Olivier I could not agree more. I remember watching the original and it still haunts me today.

The opening sequence - less than two minutes - is so moving one is compelled to keep glued to the screen.

Anyone who has never seen it should, at least, watch that.

GeoffWilkinso,

Yes that is the documentary series I was referring to. I first seen the entire series in school at the age of 10, a teacher decided it was good material for Social Studies class. I was glued to the screen (film projector, 1981) while others yawned and could not get interested in the topic or format.

I believe now that would never be allowed to be viewed in public schools as the material is too graphic & shocking. The entire system has become to PC for reality, war is now like a video game for this generation thanks to the Gulf wars CNN view of guided munitions 'Surgical strikes'

 

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  • Member since
    May 2008
Posted by tucchase on Friday, August 20, 2010 2:42 PM

Another movie I am looking forward to seeing is the movie made in Japan about the final weeks of the Yamato, and its sinking.  Its name is "Yamato".  It is written from the viewpoint of a couple of the sailors on board who survived.  We bought it a IPMS Nationals in Phoenix.  It was showing continuously in the vendor room.  The parts we saw appeared to be very well made, and everything is in Japanese with english sub-titles.  We were told by the people selling the DVD that to make the movie, they made a one-to-one Yamato, out of mostly wood, for about 3/4 of the length of the ship.  Including all interior spaces that would be needed for filming.  The guys selling it said it is supposed to be Japan's equivalent of "Saving Private Ryan".  Like Private Ryan, it also is very graphic and not for the squeemish.  The two gentlemen (father and son) selling it saw it while in China and thought it might sell well here in the States.  They bought up all the copies they could and aquired the rights to sell it here.  They couldn't find many copies so they are working a deal with the production company to make another 2000 copies for sale in the States.  Smallest batch the company would agree to.  It's 144 minutes, which is why we haven't watched it yet.  Too much other stuff going on.  I can't find their business card right now, but the Phoenix organizers should have information about the sellers.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Friday, August 20, 2010 10:57 AM

SuppressionFire

Nothing compares to the documentary 'World at War' Uncut in its entirety.

If you are refering to the 1969 documentary narated by Laurence Olivier I could not agree more. I remember watching the original and it still haunts me today.

The opening sequence - less than two minutes - is so moving one is compelled to keep glued to the screen.

Anyone who has never seen it should, at least, watch that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alqEPrzSr8I

Equally moving - the opening sequence in Saving Private Ryan.

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Friday, August 20, 2010 8:58 AM

Another movie that is great for documentary value is, I believe, called "Task Force".  I cannot find my tape to verify title. It is about the career of a man who becomes an Admiral during or just after WW2.  The movie starts out in black and white (so they can use archival footage seamlessly).  It includes shots from either Lex or Saratoga going through Panama Canal, with old airplanes on deck.  The star is Gary Cooper and characters include a short act with Adm Reeves.  The history covered is quite accurate.

During the WW2 period the film turns color suddenly so they can show color archival footage. I forget where I got a copy of the movie but I have seen it offered in several collections.

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    September 2007
  • From: Truro Nova Scotia, Canada
Posted by SuppressionFire on Thursday, August 19, 2010 6:37 PM

Good buy,

Nothing compares to the documentary 'World at War' Uncut in its entirety.

One day I will purchase a modernized (hopefully color) version. The worst part was the sad music that the original cut featured, I could do without the soundtrack & only the narration to listen to.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/razordws/GB%20Badges/WMIIIGBsmall.jpg

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Great buy on a classic documentary movie
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, August 19, 2010 6:14 PM

I happened upon this a few weeks ago as I was idly surfing the web:  http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/Fighting-Lady/William-Wyler/e/18713811738/?itm=1&USRI=Fighting+Lady .  Needless to say I immediately ordered a copy.  The color is showing its age a bit, but not at all bad.  And the sound is fine.

The movie was, as most enthusiasts probably know, shot on board the Yorktown (CV-10).  The photographers were part of Edward Steichen's famous unit; the director was William Wyler (think:  "Ben Hur"), and the narrator was Robert Taylor (who served as a Navy flight instructor during the war.  The script is, of course, short on specifics and long on patriotism.  But for five bucks you get more than an hour of genuine, color footage.  Highly recommended.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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